urbanSTL

This is only west of Kingshighway, by the way (Unfortunately Grand to Kingshwy is what needs it the most)
It needs to be reduced but bike lanes would be a mistake. There's already the dual path 100' to the south, who would opt to bike next to killing machines? They need to get creative with this one. They should look at median options. If they do want bike lanes (because that preserves the pavement and ROW incase some idiot wants this restored to 4 lanes), I'd want to see a two way bike path along FP, looping in with the dual path. 

The intersection at DeBaliviere and Lindell also needs to be fixed. While driving, I could read one of SP's posts about what makes for a good STL music venue in the time it takes for the light to turn green. When the Muny is letting out, usually about four cars get out before the whole SP collegiate lecture process starts over again. And I don't think it's just a stop light timing issue, it's an unconventional intersection that traffic engineers and their 1960s manuals probably don't like anyway. I vote roundabout. Unfortunately the trolley tracks complicates things. Speaking of The Muny, FP event traffic is a concern for Lindell. But from what I've seen while making my way up to the MetroLink Station 7 times per year for 5 years, Lindell isn't that congested not matter what event is going on. It's a mile between stop lights, that's a lot of space of a lot of cars. 

Lake sees what, 200 cars per day? Concern restricting Lake Ave access is a joke. 

I think sc4mayor & aprice have it right, paint does nothing to shrink the street. They should move the curbs in or incorporate a median (though I suppose residents wouldn't like only accessing their driveways from one direction) and curb bumpouts at crosswalks and at regular intervals would do a lot both for ease of pedestrian crossing and for making the road seem narrower therefore slowing traffic and making it harder for idiot drivers to pass using the parking lanes (I think curb bumbouts should be added in almost all intersection projects within the city). Also if the private neighborhood residents are so concerned about the traffic from Lake then maybe they should open one of their gates onto Union to provide an alternate entry to their streets.

Bringing in the curb or adding medians is probably not on the table due to expense.
My understanding was that there were curb bumpouts at intersections and a few in between. I hope that's still the case.

aprice wrote: ↑

Aug 24, 2021

While driving, I could read one of SP's posts about what makes for a good STL music venue in the time it takes for the light to turn green.

First, I'm terribly sorry. I'll try to be a tad more reasonable in my responses. Second, yikes! Yeah, that's an awful intersection. It really does need some help. I have to think you could put the trolley through the middle of a circle without any real problem, but could you fit one without screwing up the historical society fountain? Or the bike paths. Don't have an answer to that, but I definitely like the way you're thinking.

sc4mayor wrote:^ I think FPF is/was planning a traffic circle at Lindell and Union.  I know that separate bridge project recently went into design...not sure if a traffic circle is still in the cards or not, but would be a huge improvement at Union.  That intersection is just trash.  I definitely would not hate one at DeB either but as you mention, not sure how well that works with the trolley.

That bridge sure gives one the impression there might have been a circle there at one time. The plans you show in your later post are a bit disappoint in light of that. I think the circles could eliminate the signals and you could put on demand signals at pedestrian crossings instead.

_nomad_ wrote:I think sc4mayor & aprice have it right, paint does nothing to shrink the street. They should move the curbs in or incorporate a median (though I suppose residents wouldn't like only accessing their driveways from one direction) and curb bumpouts at crosswalks and at regular intervals would do a lot both for ease of pedestrian crossing and for making the road seem narrower therefore slowing traffic and making it harder for idiot drivers to pass using the parking lanes (I think curb bumbouts should be added in almost all intersection projects within the city).

I think if you put traffic circles at the ends making U-turns easy and convenient then the access issue for residents largely disappears.

I understand that folks will complain about this being elitist. And they're not completely wrong. But the park truly is an asset for all of us that everyone uses. And making the park experience better seems like a winner, even if it does happen to help a few fancy people on the north side of the thing.

sc4mayor wrote: ↑

Aug 25, 2021

Oh hey look, the most useless bike lanes in the world. I'm excited for people to complain about these when they don't see a single person using them. 

Put both bike lanes on the south side of the road, separate them with bollards or jersey barriers. 

Where did you get those from? Good ideas, especially adding a left turn lane from NB Kingshighway to Lindell. This city has too many major intersections where there are no left turns, and it baffles me.

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We need this in DT!! Bike lanes and wider sidewalks with trees!!


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^I don't see why the traffic circle needs to be quite so mammoth, but I like it. I can't wait to hear the complaints!

I like how they solved the pedestrian crossing issue that comes up with traffic circles. Putting in a small median between lanes let’s a pedestrian gauge traffic from one direction at a time.

I noticed when I cross Argonne near the Kirkwood train station, I really don’t need a light. Because the median makes it very easy to cross a single one-way lane at a time.


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JJ Rivera wrote: ↑

Aug 25, 2021

We need this in DT!! Bike lanes and wider sidewalks with trees!!


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Ping Coatar and wait a few weeks for an actual answer of substance

Listening to progressives claim that this road diet would be an attack on the working class and blue collar drivers (while aligning with the mansion owners on desired outcome) is so frustrating. It’s conservative and regressive. It’s detached from a pragmatic understanding of how that road actually functions throughout the day and what alternative routes look like.

Lindell *never* backs up. *Ever.* If it did, Forest Park Parkway, a literal Highway a block over, never backs up either (okay sometimes a little bit at Skinker, but only a light cycle or two at it’s occasional worst. That’s not atypical for major traffic routes in cities.) It’s insane.

I’m convinced that St. Louisans believe they’re in gridlock traffic if they have to tap their brakes.


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SeattleNative wrote:Listening to progressives claim that this road diet would be an attack on the working class and blue collar drivers (while aligning with the mansion owners on desired outcome) is so frustrating. It’s conservative and regressive. It’s detached from a pragmatic understanding of how that road actually functions throughout the day and what alternative routes look like.

Lindell *never* backs up. *Ever.* If it did, Forest Park Parkway, a literal Highway a block over, never backs up either (okay sometimes a little bit at Skinker, but only a light cycle or two at it’s occasional worst. That’s not atypical for major traffic routes in cities.) It’s insane.

I’m convinced that St. Louisans believe they’re in gridlock traffic if they have to tap their brakes.


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I second that !!! I’m from Chicago and I’ve never experienced real traffic in STL. Only when there’s a huge accident but thats a given. STL with all the parks and architecture it has these traffic circles would make the city more awesome.


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This is a good video (only 4 minutes long) on how to design residential streets to be friendly to pedestrians and bikes if the city ever got actually serious about making the city more livable for people rather than more convenient for cars:

Modernising street design

What happened to this project? I thought it got approved but I've seen no sign of anything changing on Lindell. 

I wonder if the change in alderman has anything to do with it. Or bids came in high,.

Probably the same thing as 7th street downtown, budgeted at $3.2m and lowest bid was $4.2M so now its getting "value engineered"