First here is how scoring works. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/BRT_Standard
Feds would like to know how you got to a decision you did when you come forward and ask for money. The EIS is required regardless of fundingpattimagee wrote: ↑Jan 20, 2022Thanks ^
Does a Federal match funding require all of these studies or require this long of a timeline? And do any other cities do this type of work faster?
"Federal and local funds spent on an effective bus system offer a better solution to address the needs of the people who live in north St. Louis County and city. Otherwise, people might get the idea that the real purpose of light-rail transit is not to move people, but to move dollars from taxpayers’ pockets into the hands of light-rail contractors."
"It took Indianapolis 15 months to build their Red Line BRT, which is 13 miles long."; - next stl.PeterXCV wrote: ↑Jan 20, 2022^honestly considering how slow moving this is, I'd take good frequent bus service now than the promise that maybe we'll build more light rail some day. like how many public transit riders will be left if this crisis goes on for years?
From a quick look, that was just the construction. I don’t really know how long the studies took.ldai_phs wrote:"It took Indianapolis 15 months to build their Red Line BRT, which is 13 miles long."; - next stl.PeterXCV wrote: ↑Jan 20, 2022^honestly considering how slow moving this is, I'd take good frequent bus service now than the promise that maybe we'll build more light rail some day. like how many public transit riders will be left if this crisis goes on for years?
i would imagine the region can more than fully fund such a brt line on their own too
I've heard that Indy's Red Line has been largely unsuccessful.ldai_phs wrote: ↑Jan 20, 2022"It took Indianapolis 15 months to build their Red Line BRT, which is 13 miles long."; - next stl.PeterXCV wrote: ↑Jan 20, 2022^honestly considering how slow moving this is, I'd take good frequent bus service now than the promise that maybe we'll build more light rail some day. like how many public transit riders will be left if this crisis goes on for years?
i would imagine the region can more than fully fund such a brt line on their own too
This all just highlights how idiotic the city-county divide is for both entities and for the rest of the region.GoHarvOrGoHome wrote:I remember groaning at the 2028 timeline announce in what, 2018? Nice to know we have made zero progress since then.
You don't like the idea of building N-S with buses and potentially upgrading to rails at a later date?Ebsy wrote: ↑Jan 21, 2022Yeah discussion of BRT should not be of a N-S metrolink or a BRT line along the same alignment. For the savings, we need multiple lines, further west than downtown.
If the trade-off is 10 miles of BRT vs. 5 miles of light rail, I'll take the light rail.MarkHaversham wrote: ↑Jan 21, 2022You don't like the idea of building N-S with buses and potentially upgrading to rails at a later date?Ebsy wrote: ↑Jan 21, 2022Yeah discussion of BRT should not be of a N-S metrolink or a BRT line along the same alignment. For the savings, we need multiple lines, further west than downtown.
I would agree with Wabash but with the caveat that it should be a city low floor modern street car considering how N-S is literally a stand alone alignment separated from metrolink itself. Bi-state, City and County need to come to one simple understanding from what i have seen over the years in that County leadership doesn't see the need, doesn't want or will not support a true city/county N-S light rail corridor anytime soon and it has been that way for years. So either drop N-S for the foreseeable future or embrace a more limited targeted fixed transit plan tying north and south neighborhoods to downtown.wabash wrote: ↑Jan 21, 2022If the trade-off is 10 miles of BRT vs. 5 miles of light rail, I'll take the light rail.MarkHaversham wrote: ↑Jan 21, 2022You don't like the idea of building N-S with buses and potentially upgrading to rails at a later date?Ebsy wrote: ↑Jan 21, 2022Yeah discussion of BRT should not be of a N-S metrolink or a BRT line along the same alignment. For the savings, we need multiple lines, further west than downtown.
I think you're spot on. Grand is an ideal BRT corridor, including its direct Metrolink connectivity. You don't need to study it for 15 months to figure that out:KansasCitian wrote: ↑Jan 21, 2022I want to see connection.
Whatever they build should, somewhere on its route, connect with the existing Metrolink system.
Otherwise, it's an absolutely certainty that the Loop Trolley haters will cry foul about another disconnected line that costs too much.
So count me among those that would love to see a BRT line that goes up and down Grand.
Can Grand BRT be updated to Metrolink streetcars in the future? Not that we'll ever have the political will to build rail again.wabash wrote: ↑Jan 21, 2022I think you're spot on. Grand is an ideal BRT corridor, including its direct Metrolink connectivity. You don't need to study it for 15 months to figure that out:KansasCitian wrote: ↑Jan 21, 2022I want to see connection.
Whatever they build should, somewhere on its route, connect with the existing Metrolink system.
Otherwise, it's an absolutely certainty that the Loop Trolley haters will cry foul about another disconnected line that costs too much.
So count me among those that would love to see a BRT line that goes up and down Grand.
Its a corridor that people are traveling through and to with direct connectivity to the Metrolink system.
- The 70 is the busiest bus route in the system.
- Grand is one of the busiest Metrolink stations largely because of the 70.
- Some of the City's largest employers (SSM, VA Hospital), institutions (SLU, Fox, Powell), commercial districts (Grand Center, South Grand), and parks (Fair Grounds, Tower Grove, Carondelet)
8 miles gets you from N 20th to Carondelet Park, 10 miles from Broadway-Taylor Transit Center to Carondelet Park, 15 miles from Riverview Transit Center to Catalan Transit Center.
It's honestly a pretty good bus as it is. I live near the south end of the 70 line. Pre-plague I could fairly consistently get from my house to the airport in an hour, which is barely a half hour longer than driving. Add in parking time and it's probably darn near beak even. In the end, I think, the more important thing than BRT would just be to get the timings back. I'm still not sold on BRT. It feels like a more expensive bus that's still a bus. If DB is right about the 70-75% of the cost of light rail figure then BRT sounds like bad math. It'd be a pretty marginal improvement for a whole lot of money. I figure if you're going to build a dedicated right of way with platforms and separation from automotive traffic stick rails in it and make it comfortable and efficient. Otherwise . . . bump up driver pay and fix this mess. (Actually . . . just do that last part no matter what else you do. We HAVE a good system entirely as is. Metrolink/Metrobus has great routes and the drive times aren't at all bad. We just need shorter headways. )wabash wrote: ↑Jan 21, 2022I think you're spot on. Grand is an ideal BRT corridor, including its direct Metrolink connectivity. You don't need to study it for 15 months to figure that out:KansasCitian wrote: ↑Jan 21, 2022I want to see connection.
Whatever they build should, somewhere on its route, connect with the existing Metrolink system.
Otherwise, it's an absolutely certainty that the Loop Trolley haters will cry foul about another disconnected line that costs too much.
So count me among those that would love to see a BRT line that goes up and down Grand.
Its a corridor that people are traveling through and to with direct connectivity to the Metrolink system.
- The 70 is the busiest bus route in the system.
- Grand is one of the busiest Metrolink stations largely because of the 70.
- Some of the City's largest employers (SSM, VA Hospital), institutions (SLU, Fox, Powell), commercial districts (Grand Center, South Grand), and parks (Fair Grounds, Tower Grove, Carondelet)
8 miles gets you from N 20th to Carondelet Park, 10 miles from Broadway-Taylor Transit Center to Carondelet Park, 15 miles from Riverview Transit Center to Catalan Transit Center.
I agree with your statement on BRT. If we're finally going to build the N/S line, do it right. MetroLink runs on time 97% of the time, is a much better experience than Bus. I'd feel much more confident planning a new LRT line on dedicated rail for just about 25% more than setting up a BRT that is a little cheaper but a worse experience.symphonicpoet wrote: ↑Jan 21, 2022It's honestly a pretty good bus as it is. I live near the south end of the 70 line. Pre-plague I could fairly consistently get from my house to the airport in an hour, which is barely a half hour longer than driving. Add in parking time and it's probably darn near beak even. In the end, I think, the more important thing than BRT would just be to get the timings back. I'm still not sold on BRT. It feels like a more expensive bus that's still a bus. If DB is right about the 70-75% of the cost of light rail figure then BRT sounds like bad math. It'd be a pretty marginal improvement for a whole lot of money. I figure if you're going to build a dedicated right of way with platforms and separation from automotive traffic stick rails in it and make it comfortable and efficient. Otherwise . . . bump up driver pay and fix this mess. (Actually . . . just do that last part no matter what else you do. We HAVE a good system entirely as is. Metrolink/Metrobus has great routes and the drive times aren't at all bad. We just need shorter headways. )wabash wrote: ↑Jan 21, 2022I think you're spot on. Grand is an ideal BRT corridor, including its direct Metrolink connectivity. You don't need to study it for 15 months to figure that out:KansasCitian wrote: ↑Jan 21, 2022I want to see connection.
Whatever they build should, somewhere on its route, connect with the existing Metrolink system.
Otherwise, it's an absolutely certainty that the Loop Trolley haters will cry foul about another disconnected line that costs too much.
So count me among those that would love to see a BRT line that goes up and down Grand.
Its a corridor that people are traveling through and to with direct connectivity to the Metrolink system.
- The 70 is the busiest bus route in the system.
- Grand is one of the busiest Metrolink stations largely because of the 70.
- Some of the City's largest employers (SSM, VA Hospital), institutions (SLU, Fox, Powell), commercial districts (Grand Center, South Grand), and parks (Fair Grounds, Tower Grove, Carondelet)
8 miles gets you from N 20th to Carondelet Park, 10 miles from Broadway-Taylor Transit Center to Carondelet Park, 15 miles from Riverview Transit Center to Catalan Transit Center.
All that said, if you want to lay rail Grand would be a good place for it. But I think I'm to the point where I want to see BRT put to bed. It really starts to sound like a waste of money.
