Is your case about Downtown or St. Louis City?
I don't think anyone here is saying that it wouldn't be nice if there was more demand for high end residences. But there just isn't at the moment. Your earlier posts were saying that the way to fix this was to artificially raise prices on residential, as if that would somehow make apartments or condos more appealing to working professionals. If Chevy wanted to sell more cars to wealthier customers, they can't just increase the Malibu from $25k to $50k and think that would do anything.JJ Taino wrote: ↑Nov 06, 2021Most thriving neighborhoods in STL have a higher income and more professionals. I know ya’ll don’t like this but more productive residents with higher incomes brings crime down. The mayor of STL says it all the time and most politicians with a brain as well. I do get your point don’t get me wrong but Downtown should be the core of urban living with professionals. There should be more than loft living. Other than One Cardinal Way there hasn’t been any new projects. Butler Brothers and 1801 hopefully helps brings more professionals but as of now its the same story for decades from what I’ve read online. My first point with the super low cost of living is that the cost of living proves that Downtown as of now is not a desire neighborhood like CWE, The Grove and Soulard (which they have new developments left to right). I wish it was and that’s my goal or hopes. But saying for decades that is going to change and hide the fact that for a Downtown crime rates are super high does not help. Reality is that crime dictates the COL in the area. Bringing new blood and professionals is the answer. Either we like it or not to make STL a competitive city we need to make the central corridor more professional oriented. Don’t have anything against poor people like other have stated but DT and the central corridor can’t have it both ways. DT is already surrounded by land that can be developed for affordable housing and around downtown there’s plenty of affordable housing.
2004-2008 downtown + westwabash wrote: ↑Nov 06, 2021Is your case about Downtown or St. Louis City?
DT was at its peak bubble of historic loft renovations in 2008, and progress certainly slowed significantly in the following 12 years.
The East Loop, Debaliviere, Central West End, Grove, Botanical Heights, Shaw, Midtown (although more the south and western portions than Midtown Alley) all feel very different than they did in 2008, with investment and development seeming to continue to pour in.
DT could be turning a corner with some recent, larger scale projects - BPV 2, Arch Grounds, Union Station, MLS - driving additional investment. But there's no doubt that there was a decade long lull following the '08-'09 recession, despite some good projects occurring (e.e.g, OPOP completion, Arcade renovation, SLU Law) in the interim.dbInSouthCity wrote: ↑Nov 06, 20212004-2008 downtown + westwabash wrote: ↑Nov 06, 2021Is your case about Downtown or St. Louis City?
DT was at its peak bubble of historic loft renovations in 2008, and progress certainly slowed significantly in the following 12 years.
The East Loop, Debaliviere, Central West End, Grove, Botanical Heights, Shaw, Midtown (although more the south and western portions than Midtown Alley) all feel very different than they did in 2008, with investment and development seeming to continue to pour in.
2,010 permits and $1,120,000,000
2017-2021 downtown + west
1,850 permits and $1,280,000,000 (probably 1.3 by end of year)
Just eye balling it here but the prices are also up 13% since post recession early in the decade. Downtown has also shifted from ownership to renting and that’s mostly before people younger 30 stopped buying houses the last decade at the same place, everywhere
Yes. When you compare private dollars invested in Downtown & Downtown West with both condo values (posted previously) and rent rates (specifically office, restaurant & retail) it becomes blatantly obvious that the ROI for developers is paltry at best. Can you build a new apartment building and sell it for an ok ROI? Probably with incentives (contrary to what many anti-incentive people believe). But, even with incentives, are Downtown & Downtown West investments high priority for developers versus sites outside of Downtown? Probably not.dbInSouthCity wrote: ↑Nov 06, 20212004-2008 downtown + westwabash wrote: ↑Nov 06, 2021Is your case about Downtown or St. Louis City?
DT was at its peak bubble of historic loft renovations in 2008, and progress certainly slowed significantly in the following 12 years.
The East Loop, Debaliviere, Central West End, Grove, Botanical Heights, Shaw, Midtown (although more the south and western portions than Midtown Alley) all feel very different than they did in 2008, with investment and development seeming to continue to pour in.
2,010 permits and $1,120,000,000
2017-2021 downtown + west
1,850 permits and $1,280,000,000 (probably 1.3 by end of year)
That sounds good and all but my concern is that the Chemical Building, Railway Exchange, ATT Tower, Millennium Hotel, and Jefferson Arms are long term developments (maybe 10+ years maybe 20+ years) and until those buildings don’t get rehabbed I can’t see no real large residential projects been viable.dbInSouthCity wrote:Just eye balling it here but the prices are also up 13% since post recession early in the decade. Downtown has also shifted from ownership to renting and that’s mostly before people younger 30 stopped buying houses the last decade at the same place, everywhere
Let me check it out!Downtown1999 wrote:I don’t think AT&T Tower ever gets developed. It’s massive w/ basically no parking. Whether you like it or not, St. Louis drives. I think AT&T Tower will end up in the City’s hands and eventually gets demolished.
There’s far more to worry about than the ill-conceived AT&T Tower (ill-conceived meaning Inland (REIT) let AT&T keep the parking component when they purchased it — dumbest deal ever). See earlier post regarding fixing problems in the public realm (City gov decisions and CID decisions).
That’s not a problem! Entrepreneurs and investors regardless of color are always welcome. Atlanta is 58% black and is a mega city with a lot things to do! Problem in DT STL is who we cater for meaning if all we open is a KFC (which we are and is not a problem we need those too) most likely people who frequent Michelin restaurants won’t come DT and spend money in it meaning a less attractive DT. We need real restaurants Downtown. I’ll say we have around 2 and been generous that are worthy for outsider to visit downtown. BPV is an entertainment venue not a place to have a nice dinner. There’s quick grabs and burgers and a pizza place (one) but not seating fancy restaurants. I guess Prime 55 will be another once it opens.dbInSouthCity wrote:On the residential side Downtown is constantly changing and yet to find its identity. early on it was mostly older white condo owners and In the last 2 years (since start of 2020) if I had to guess I’d say 70-80% of street level businesses that have opened in downtown are black owned. Same for new residents in downtown.
I think this recent trend will stick around for a while.
we have Gerard Craft restaurants downtown too.JJ Taino wrote:That’s not a problem! Entrepreneurs and investors regardless of color are always welcome. Atlanta is 58% black and is a mega city with a lot things to do! Problem in DT STL is who we cater for meaning if all we open is a KFC (which we are and is not a problem we need those too) most likely people who frequent Michelin restaurants won’t come DT and spend money in it meaning a less attractive DT. We need real restaurants Downtown. I’ll say we have around 2 and been generous that are worthy for outsider to visit downtown. BPV is an entertainment venue not a place to have a nice dinner. There’s quick grabs and burgers and a pizza place (one) but not seating fancy restaurants. I guess Prime 55 will be another once it opens.dbInSouthCity wrote:On the residential side Downtown is constantly changing and yet to find its identity. early on it was mostly older white condo owners and In the last 2 years (since start of 2020) if I had to guess I’d say 70-80% of street level businesses that have opened in downtown are black owned. Same for new residents in downtown.
I think this recent trend will stick around for a while.
Yes we do! So Sen, Cinder House, what else are worth visiting? That are not burger, pizza, or quick grab.SeattleNative wrote:we have Gerard Craft restaurants downtown too.JJ Taino wrote:That’s not a problem! Entrepreneurs and investors regardless of color are always welcome. Atlanta is 58% black and is a mega city with a lot things to do! Problem in DT STL is who we cater for meaning if all we open is a KFC (which we are and is not a problem we need those too) most likely people who frequent Michelin restaurants won’t come DT and spend money in it meaning a less attractive DT. We need real restaurants Downtown. I’ll say we have around 2 and been generous that are worthy for outsider to visit downtown. BPV is an entertainment venue not a place to have a nice dinner. There’s quick grabs and burgers and a pizza place (one) but not seating fancy restaurants. I guess Prime 55 will be another once it opens.dbInSouthCity wrote:On the residential side Downtown is constantly changing and yet to find its identity. early on it was mostly older white condo owners and In the last 2 years (since start of 2020) if I had to guess I’d say 70-80% of street level businesses that have opened in downtown are black owned. Same for new residents in downtown.
I think this recent trend will stick around for a while.
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Those rumors were the speculation we had here on UrbanSTLThatguy644 wrote: ↑Nov 07, 2021If I was the city / state I would call spectrum every day see if they want it.( I herd rumors that they were looking in to it before).
. Let’s not source ourselves to amplify the reality of rumors after the fact.Much of St. Louis drives, not all of St. Louis demands in-building parking for their apartment, especially Downtown (OPOP Tower, Arcade-Wright, Paul Brown, Laclede Tower).Downtown1999 wrote: ↑Nov 07, 2021Whether you like it or not, St. Louis drives.
It’s no coincidence, or mere correlation, that peoples’ souring on DT and DT West follows those neighborhoods moving towards a black majority.dbInSouthCity wrote: ↑Nov 07, 2021On the residential side Downtown is constantly changing and yet to find its identity. early on it was mostly older white condo owners and In the last 2 years (since start of 2020) if I had to guess I’d say 70-80% of street level businesses that have opened in downtown are black owned. Same for new residents in downtown.
I think this recent trend will stick around for a while.
Carmine's Steakhouse is another great option.JJ Taino wrote: ↑Nov 07, 2021Yes we do! So Sen, Cinder House, what else are worth visiting? That are not burger, pizza, or quick grab.SeattleNative wrote:we have Gerard Craft restaurants downtown too.JJ Taino wrote: That’s not a problem! Entrepreneurs and investors regardless of color are always welcome. Atlanta is 58% black and is a mega city with a lot things to do! Problem in DT STL is who we cater for meaning if all we open is a KFC (which we are and is not a problem we need those too) most likely people who frequent Michelin restaurants won’t come DT and spend money in it meaning a less attractive DT. We need real restaurants Downtown. I’ll say we have around 2 and been generous that are worthy for outsider to visit downtown. BPV is an entertainment venue not a place to have a nice dinner. There’s quick grabs and burgers and a pizza place (one) but not seating fancy restaurants. I guess Prime 55 will be another once it opens.
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