So do they wait for the sales tax receipts from the TDD to be enough to cover operations or sell the assets and bond out the TDD tax to pay the Feds back and rip up the infrastructure?
Pity. While I don't think the Loop Trolley is a good use of transit dollars and widely hated, there's never any problem in blowing money on wasteful car infrastructure.
Does the article mention why they rejected the grant?Laife Fulk wrote: ↑Oct 27, 2021East-West Gateway rejected the grant.
https://www.stltoday.com/news/local/gov ... me-just-in
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No quotes from EW Gateway were included, but I would assume that Bi-State did not want to take over the costs of operating it and have to dedicate their own funds towards it. With both Page and Jones stating no more further county or city money will go to the trolley, and their support was only if Bi-State took over its operation, EW Gateway probably doesn't want to be solely responsible for any funding shortfalls.
This is false. There were many meetings. A streetcar sat in front of the History Museum and Commerce Bank for years.“This project should never have been built,” Jones said of the trolley. “It was built without community input.”
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Throwing away free money from the feds because… optics? Nice. Might end up with the region having to pay back $25M? Really stood up for taxpayers here.
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That's one way of looking at it, but I don't think this was optics. If EW Gateway's own analysis showed that they would lose even more money by operating it, then I can't really fault them. If there's not enough money to operate it for free on weekends using the TDD, and the $25M has to be repaid, then its time to sell the assets and use the TDD to offset that cost.
At some point this charade needs to end and accountability needs to be enforced. Real questions and soul searching needs to happen. Those who supported this and pushed it though need to ask themselves where they went wrong and refrain from input. Ultimately it is the trolley-backers fault that the region is stuck between a rock and a hard place here. Even when it became clear that this was a bad idea from a ridership and revenue standpoint, it was pushed through.
The question on receiving federal money for it is a hilarious one, but here we are. The question needs to be asked: over the life of this thing, is it going to waste us more than $25 million? Or less?
The question on receiving federal money for it is a hilarious one, but here we are. The question needs to be asked: over the life of this thing, is it going to waste us more than $25 million? Or less?
^^That's a fair point. It's a bit of a cop-out for the pols to say "I support this grant, but do not support any ongoing funding." I suppose it comes down to what % of operating costs can reasonably be expected to be covered by the TDD. If it's 100% then this is a huge miss. If it's 10% then it's more understandable why no one would want to step up and EW-Gateway would back away from it. I'm guessing it's somewhere in-between, but possibly approaching 100%?
It just seems that a heritage trolley would fit right in to an agency (Bi-State) that already operates the Arch tram, two riverboats, and helicopter tours, along with a light rail system.
It just seems that a heritage trolley would fit right in to an agency (Bi-State) that already operates the Arch tram, two riverboats, and helicopter tours, along with a light rail system.
Inflation-Adjusted Loop Trolley TDD Taxable Sales and Use 2010-2020 Down 48% 2019-2020
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Can you provide more info on that graph? Is it actual sales taxes collected and used? Just one or the other? Both combined?
It must be overall sales to which the tax applies (basically the tax base), as TDD sales taxes collected were:Laife Fulk wrote: ↑Oct 27, 2021Can you provide more info on that graph? Is it actual sales taxes collected and used? Just one or the other? Both combined?
- 2018 - $780,449
- 2019 - $819,471
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Looks like roughly 50% of the budget is covered by the TDDwabash wrote:^^That's a fair point. It's a bit of a cop-out for the pols to say "I support this grant, but do not support any ongoing funding." I suppose it comes down to what % of operating costs can reasonably be expected to be covered by the TDD. If it's 100% then this is a huge miss. If it's 10% then it's more understandable why no one would want to step up and EW-Gateway would back away from it. I'm guessing it's somewhere in-between, but possibly approaching 100%?
It just seems that a heritage trolley would fit right in to an agency (Bi-State) that already operates the Arch tram, two riverboats, and helicopter tours, along with a light rail system.
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I’d put more than a few dollars on a good sized handful of the region’s politicos not knowing Metro operates all that…including the downtown airport in Cahokia.
It's what the MO DoR reports as the amount of taxable sales and use.
I presume the Trolley TDD gets about 1% of that. I don't think the TDD posts its budget online.
I presume the Trolley TDD gets about 1% of that. I don't think the TDD posts its budget online.
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They have said they anticipated 43% of their budget being TDD tax when it opened.quincunx wrote:It's what the MO DoR reports as the amount of taxable sales and use.
I presume the Trolley TDD gets about 1% of that. I don't think the TDD posts its budget online.
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Sorry, I jumped the gun there. Those numbers are from a projected budget from before the Loop Trolley opened, so the actual TDD revenue would have differed. Nonetheless, the conclusion is the same. The TDD assumedly generated somewhere around 1% of the overall sales numbers in quin's chart.Laife Fulk wrote: ↑Oct 27, 2021Got it. That makes a lot more sense. Thanks Wabash!
Wish WashU got involved and took Loop Trolley down to Danforth Campus on to Richmond Heights. Would give their students a reliable transport option and they could phase out some of their shuttle lines.
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I’d rather they spend however many dozen million of dollars this would take on a number of different projects.ldai_phs wrote: ↑Oct 27, 2021Wish WashU got involved and took Loop Trolley down to Danforth Campus on to Richmond Heights. Would give their students a reliable transport option and they could phase out some of their shuttle lines.
Off the top of my head, if WashU were to hypothetically invest $25M into any pipedream project, I'd say that one of the best uses would be to entice students to stay in St. Louis by evolving their existing "Live Near Your Work" program into a "Stay Local" type incentive. Offer $25k as down payment assistance (as a forgivable loan) to any WashU alum who graduated within the last 5 years (rolling 5 years moving forward) if they buy a house in the West End, Visitation Park, Hamilton Heights, Academy, Fountain Park, etc. neighborhoods as their primary residence. There's no way they'd even get to that $25M threshold, so they could even spend some of that funding in supporting infrastructure projects like replacing sidewalks, updating street lights, and even having WashU Public Safety patrols drive through the neighborhoods.
^ Definitely. Plus you can already ride MetroLink from the Danforth Campus to Richmond Heights (and plenty of other places). MetroLink is a far more reliable and expansive service than a mixed traffic streetcar.
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The Loop Trolley remains dead in its tracks after a regional planning agency rejects funding plan
https://news.stlpublicradio.org/government-politics-issues/2021-10-27/with-funding-rejected-the-loop-trolley-remains-in-limbo
https://news.stlpublicradio.org/government-politics-issues/2021-10-27/with-funding-rejected-the-loop-trolley-remains-in-limbo
Sort of. Try going bowling via Metrolnik. Fing miserable. Not their fault of course. Just pointing out "it goes to Richmond Heights" is a generous statement.sc4mayor wrote: ↑Oct 27, 2021^ Definitely. Plus you can already ride MetroLink from the Danforth Campus to Richmond Heights (and plenty of other places). MetroLink is a far more reliable and expansive service than a mixed traffic streetcar.