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PostAug 23, 2021#276

I think they're good ideas and alternatives, and if the project is shot down at tomorrow's preservation board meeting, then hopefully a reader of NextSTL, with money and a vision, takes the idea presented and runs with it. 

But at this point, and my reasoning behind supporting the currently proposed project is this - the site has been for sale for nearly 8 years now. Three public development proposals have come and gone during that time frame. If it made economic sense to preserve the corner building and build around it, wouldn't it be likely that it would be done by now? I'd love it if someone came along and proposed what is shown in the NextSTL article. Another taller building in the CWE would be great, but it's unlikely on this parcel at this point. Another thing opponents of the Lux proposal aren't considering is the economic hardship on the Optimists for retaining ownership of the building. It's far too large and needs too much work for them to handle. The director of Optimist even said this at meetings and, if I recall correctly, during the previous preservation board meeting. He also said that they just want to sell the building to a developer and reinvest the money from the sale into their charitable work. And if Lux walks away, there are currently no other buyers waiting for the property. If there were, it would've been made clear by now as an "alternate proposal" and very public and messy bidding war.

So why punish a property owner who has a buyer with a plan for the site that seeks no tax incentives (new chapter for the neighborhood) and adds 150 apartments to an already dense neighborhood? I get that Jim Dwyer, Michael Allen, Andrew Weil and others want to save the building, but at what point do they take into consideration the considerations that the Optimists made in order to arrive at this conclusion on their end? A project like this needs to be looked at through more than one lens with most of the vocal opponents's lens being the preservation lens. I'd recommend they also look through the lens of the current owner, tax base, and neighborhood business lens before being as naive as they are about something like this. That's how I look at it and in through the lens of the other options, it's a 3-1 viewpoint for me which makes me in favor of this project.

And who knows, maybe the anger doesn't lie in the proposal itself but rather the developer (Lux). Maybe if another developer proposed this same project as-is, a select few people wouldn't be up in arms about it. We may never know.

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PostAug 23, 2021#277

Stltoday - Demos and denials: How the city's preservation board hammers out deals

https://www.stltoday.com/business/local ... 3c22b.html

PostAug 23, 2021#278

A taller building that matches the unit count without demo of the Optimist means higher construction costs since you couldn't do wood plus rehabbing the Optimist. It might make the pro forma not work, or not work without tax incentives.

For some opposition is more about Lux, and they're quite clear about that. FWIW Andrew Weil was quite laudatory of the developer in his comments at the last meeting.

No tax abatement is great, but I'll add that the chances of getting one is really small anyways.

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PostAug 23, 2021#279

Preservation Board shot down the proposal 3-2. Only 5 members present tonight. Allowed no public comments.

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PostAug 23, 2021#280


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PostAug 23, 2021#281

This can be appealed to the Planning Commission and I suspect it will be, based on the make up of that board I think it would get a favorable vote

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PostAug 23, 2021#282

I'm a preservationist in the sense that I hate things knocked down with absolutely no plan (Parking Lot does not count as a plan!) and we should have a high standard to tear down buildings. 

It strikes me as absurd to save this particular building unless your only goal is architectural preservation which isnt the greatest goal in the world.  Any other goal is not served by this decision.  This hurts the charity, it raises median rent prices in the neighborhood - hurting the socio-economic diversity of the neighborhood.  An absurd decision.  

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PostAug 23, 2021#283

How many are on the preservation board?

At this point, they're basically holding Optimist hostage b/c there are clearly no end-users who want to buy it and no developer who wants to try to build around it. If the city wants to effectively control the sale of a building, they should step up and buy it.

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PostAug 23, 2021#284

jbacott wrote:
Aug 23, 2021
How many are on the preservation board?

At this point, they're basically holding Optimist hostage b/c there are clearly no end-users who want to buy it and no developer who wants to try to build around it. If the city wants to effectively control the sale of a building, they should step up and buy it.
There are currently 8 members of the Preservation Board. Three were absent from the meeting today (Richardson, Hamilton, and Weber). 

Yes Votes: Killeen and Coatar.
No Votes: Callow, Fathman, and Robinson

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PostAug 23, 2021#285

Isn't the next step to apply for a demo permit and go before the Preservation Board again? This was a vote for preliminary approval.

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PostAug 23, 2021#286

quincunx wrote:
Aug 23, 2021
Isn't the next step to apply for a demo permit and go before the Preservation Board again? This was a vote for preliminary approval.
Personally, I don't think that would change the outcome any

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PostAug 23, 2021#287

chriss752 wrote:
Aug 23, 2021
jbacott wrote:
Aug 23, 2021
How many are on the preservation board?

At this point, they're basically holding Optimist hostage b/c there are clearly no end-users who want to buy it and no developer who wants to try to build around it. If the city wants to effectively control the sale of a building, they should step up and buy it.
There are currently 8 members of the Preservation Board. Three were absent from the meeting today (Richardson, Hamilton, and Weber). 

Yes Votes: Killeen and Coatar.
No Votes: Callow, Fathman, and Robinson
Richardson and Hamilton would have been yes, not sure on Walker (don’t know the person). Tho I could see Hamilton voting no if his development firm has projects in the area (they do) and obviously that would be a conflict but this is stl

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PostAug 23, 2021#288

dbInSouthCity wrote:
chriss752 wrote:
Aug 23, 2021
jbacott wrote:
Aug 23, 2021
How many are on the preservation board?

At this point, they're basically holding Optimist hostage b/c there are clearly no end-users who want to buy it and no developer who wants to try to build around it. If the city wants to effectively control the sale of a building, they should step up and buy it.
There are currently 8 members of the Preservation Board. Three were absent from the meeting today (Richardson, Hamilton, and Weber). 

Yes Votes: Killeen and Coatar.
No Votes: Callow, Fathman, and Robinson
Richardson and Hamilton would have been yes, not sure on Walker (don’t know the person). Tho I could see Hamilton voting no if his development firm has projects in the area (they do) and obviously that would be a conflict but this is stl
Richardson voted no last time around.

Hamilton and Weber voted yes, this resulted in the tie. But you never know.

How would an appeal to the planning commission work here? Since this was a disapproval of the preliminary design review.

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PostAug 23, 2021#289

Richardson, a real estate lawyer, is usually pro development.

And yes since this was prelim, they’ll have to apply for demo permit first and go back to Pres Board but I could have swore that Planning Commission can just bypass that if it’s passed as part of a development plan?

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PostAug 24, 2021#290

I understand the rationale and frustration of those in favor of demolition, but this was the right decision. Otherwise, our preservation guidelines are meaningless. On the bright side, if any neighborhood in St. Louis City is ready to play hardball, it's the CWE. Whatever is ultimately built on this prominent corner should be better than "ok" ,because it would not only be compensating for the loss of the Optimist building, but also the gaping void left by the removal of the San Luis for a parking lot. And let's be real, the rendering of the proposed apartment building was just..."eh?" Nothing nothing less, nothing more.

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PostAug 24, 2021#291

stlgasm wrote:
Aug 24, 2021
I understand the rationale and frustration of those in favor of demolition, but this was the right decision. Otherwise, our preservation guidelines are meaningless. On the bright side, if any neighborhood in St. Louis City is ready to play hardball, it's the CWE. Whatever is ultimately built on this prominent corner should be better than "ok" ,because it would not only be compensating for the loss of the Optimist building, but also the gaping void left by the removal of the San Luis for a parking lot. And let's be real, the rendering of the proposed apartment building was just..."eh?" Nothing nothing less, nothing more.
This is bad. Making it hard to build things in this city is bad. It leads to higher house prices and higher rents  - pricing out economic diversity.  The same people bidding on the same apartments in the CWE will now drive the price higher. 

Architectural preservation shouldn't take precedence over letting people live where they want to live except in extreme circumstances. And we should prefer lower rent prices and more housing as a community rather than a 2 story building the people who own it don't even want anymore. 

I may be missing something but not sure why the Optimist should make up for the San Luis.  Was it their fault? 

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PostAug 24, 2021#292

mjbais1489 wrote:
Aug 24, 2021
stlgasm wrote:
Aug 24, 2021
I understand the rationale and frustration of those in favor of demolition, but this was the right decision. Otherwise, our preservation guidelines are meaningless. On the bright side, if any neighborhood in St. Louis City is ready to play hardball, it's the CWE. Whatever is ultimately built on this prominent corner should be better than "ok" ,because it would not only be compensating for the loss of the Optimist building, but also the gaping void left by the removal of the San Luis for a parking lot. And let's be real, the rendering of the proposed apartment building was just..."eh?" Nothing nothing less, nothing more.
This is bad. Making it hard to build things in this city is bad. It leads to higher house prices and higher rents  - pricing out economic diversity.  The same people bidding on the same apartments in the CWE will now drive the price higher. 

Architectural preservation shouldn't take precedence over letting people live where they want to live except in extreme circumstances. And we should prefer lower rent prices and more housing as a community rather than a 2 story building the people who own it don't even want anymore. 

I may be missing something but not sure why the Optimist should make up for the San Luis.  Was it their fault? 
Ugh this take is as equally bad. Most people are between the two.

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PostAug 24, 2021#293

dbInSouthCity wrote:
mjbais1489 wrote:
Aug 24, 2021
stlgasm wrote:
Aug 24, 2021
I understand the rationale and frustration of those in favor of demolition, but this was the right decision. Otherwise, our preservation guidelines are meaningless. On the bright side, if any neighborhood in St. Louis City is ready to play hardball, it's the CWE. Whatever is ultimately built on this prominent corner should be better than "ok" ,because it would not only be compensating for the loss of the Optimist building, but also the gaping void left by the removal of the San Luis for a parking lot. And let's be real, the rendering of the proposed apartment building was just..."eh?" Nothing nothing less, nothing more.
This is bad. Making it hard to build things in this city is bad. It leads to higher house prices and higher rents  - pricing out economic diversity.  The same people bidding on the same apartments in the CWE will now drive the price higher. 

Architectural preservation shouldn't take precedence over letting people live where they want to live except in extreme circumstances. And we should prefer lower rent prices and more housing as a community rather than a 2 story building the people who own it don't even want anymore. 

I may be missing something but not sure why the Optimist should make up for the San Luis.  Was it their fault? 
Ugh this take is as equally bad. Most people are between the two.
Yeah agreed. Historic preservation and density are very important. This was a bit of a slippery slope considering this site is one of like, just 2 dozen across the city with the type of architectural distinction that was an issue.

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PostAug 24, 2021#294

While I tend to side with the preservationists in most issues, I am not a fundamentalist and was pro-demolition in this case.
Demolishing a historical building to build a QT or something else that will contribute to lower density --> bad
Demolishing a historical building to replace it with a project that will improve density and urbanism at no cost to the taxpayer --> good
What really makes this a slam dunk is that the historical building was just sitting there empty and partly abandoned, so it will probably eventually get demolished anyway. And then maybe it will get replaced by a parking lot, or by a QT.

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PostAug 24, 2021#295

It’s infuriating to me that more people aren’t focusing on the biggest issue here: the loss of tax revenue this could have generated for SLPS. To those in favor of preservation I ask: will you still be ok with this decision 5 years from now when this property still sits mostly vacant and generating $0 for SLPS? Is it acceptable to ask school kids to foot the bill for this in the name of architectural preservation?

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PostAug 24, 2021#296

We should probably stop accusing each other of moral slights in a thread for a now currently defunct project.

Let's also avoid some red herrings and slippery slopes.

Project would have added density and tax revenue.

Optimist sure generates close to none but was chosen as one of very few buildings or architectural significance.

Both things true and important.

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PostAug 24, 2021#297

I'm all for preservation but 7 different developers have tried something here over 8 years (including at least one proposed reuse)...still empty.  If this was an old brick row home or a traditional commercial structure I could see sitting on it longer as those types of buildings lend themselves to reuse better.

I don't really agree with this having to answer for everyone's favorite lost cause...the San Luis.  I'd rather see a new apartment building here and then something rise on the Cathedral lot.  YES...I know the Church will likely have none of it.  Still, an apartment building with a garage that has space reserved for Cathedral visitors may, however unlikely, get them into a discussion.

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PostAug 24, 2021#298

I’m not meaning to accuse anyone of lacking morals, just pointing out that while there are very legitimate arguments on both sides, they are not equally weighted. In this case it just seems like what we’ve lost far outweighs what was gained.

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PostAug 24, 2021#299

SouthCityJR wrote:I’m not meaning to accuse anyone of lacking morals, just pointing out that while there are very legitimate arguments on both sides, they are not equally weighted. In this case it just seems like what we’ve lost far outweighs what was gained.
I tend to agree with this position too. Especially on such a crucial corridor.

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PostAug 24, 2021#300

I think we'd all agree that, if the Gang Group proposed something for this site, less people would give a damn about the Optimist Building. Thing is, they haven't, and they more than likely never will. 

Right now, this building is a liability for the nonprofit that currently owns it. They want to get rid of it ASAP and see something positive come in. AFAIK, there have not been any other offers coming in for it besides this one that would not be requesting subsidies to build something new. There is some historical charm to the Optimist Building, but it's not some marvelously charming mid-century modern like the Seagrams Building. It's nice, yes, but it's not invaluable, and very much it would cost a hell of a lot more to practically redevelop it than whatever viable good could come of it. The simple fact that the Optimists are this pessimistic about their own building is so ironically poetic. To invoke Sterling Archer, "This is like O. Henry had a baby with Alanis Morissette and named it THIS EXACT SITUATION!" 

I say the developers should add a couple stories to their design, make it a proper high rise, and resubmit. 

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