St. Louis Cardinals

urbanitas · PostJul 24, 2021#7512021-07-24T08:12+00:00

dbInSouthCity wrote: ↑
Jul 23, 2021
No chance Hammons is coming off the stadium name, the guy paid for the entire thing. John Q. Hammons Industries still owns the stadium unless it got deeded over to Springfield after he died

Read the article.

JQH Industries went bankrupt in 2018, sold most of their real estate assets, including Hammons stadium, to a New York investment firm.

The stadium was to be transferred to a trust that would maintain it and make renovations requested by the team, so as to keep it in the top tier of Texas League stadiums (sound familiar?). But the trust was apparently underfunded, so big mess, and no renovations...hence the lawsuits and relocation threats...

debaliviere · PostAug 06, 2021#7522021-08-06T16:00+00:00

We need a Two Cardinal Way announcement to distract us from the awful season the Cards are having.

ibleedlou · PostAug 06, 2021#7532021-08-06T19:55+00:00

debaliviere wrote: ↑
Aug 06, 2021
We need a Two Cardinal Way announcement to distract us from the awful season the Cards are having.

Right! I haven't watched a game in two years. It's like a completely different organization lately, and until MO is gone and the sense of urgency to compete at the highest level returns, I'll stick to Blues games from here in Minnesota.

Trololzilla · PostAug 07, 2021#7542021-08-07T11:58+00:00

ibleedlou wrote: ↑
Aug 06, 2021
We need a Two Cardinal Way announcement to distract us from the awful season the Cards are having.
Right! I haven't watched a game in two years. It's like a completely different organization lately, and until MO is gone and the sense of urgency to compete at the highest level returns, I'll stick to Blues games from here in Minnesota.

Mo isn't the problem. There is no 'sense of urgency' because there's no need for one. This year was always pegged for a transition year by the organization and only the gas station fans feel otherwise. The Cardinals simply had to wait for the transition from its older, costlier players to come off the books corresponding with some of the talent in the system graduating to the big leagues, both of which happen after this season when a crapton of dead salary comes off the books and some of the prospects near the top should be ready for a shot. There's a lot of exciting talent in the minors right now, and the hole caused by the 2017 draft (or lack thereof) is finally closing.

The Cardinals shoot for 90 wins each year (+/- 10 wins, or about 1 SD); that's the goal that ownership sets for the FO and it's what they've accomplished remarkably well for nearly 15 years now - just be competitive and get into the playoffs, since they're just a crapshoot anyway. It's not like this team is bad - there was just too little depth to open the season with and it became exposed with the extraordinary amount of injuries that the team has gone through, plus markedly bad variance in the year-to-year bullpen performance combined with a manager that is utterly incompetent. With normal injury luck, this team is very likely leading the division - they were leading before the injuries started to pile on. The Cubs 'dynasty' is done; the Reds don't know how to build a team; the Pirates are a few years away from being a threat; and the Brewers aren't in a great spot either. They have a terrible system, lack depth, and their bullpen isn't the monster it once was. Their season has been propped up entirely by a rotation way overperforming their career norms and might be a problem down the line, since practically all of them have entered uncharted territory in terms of innings pitched over a single season. Look for arm injuries for them in the near future.

The Cardinals are very well poised to take advantage of the next few years financially and in terms of what they have coming up through the pipeline. The only things we'll have to wait and see on are whether or not the DH comes to the NL (which it will) or if there will even be a season next year, which I'm not too confident about. Wouldn't be surprised to see another labor stoppage get rid of about half the season at least, since Tony Clark is a nincompoop and will manufacture stuff to take umbrage about. Lost revenues like that again might actually be pretty detrimental to the team.

If anybody needs to go, it's DeWitt - a lot of the legacy contracts are solely because of him and his clinging to 'tradition' and the 'Cardinal Way'. Molina especially either needs to go or be willing to accept that he's not very good anymore and play at most every Waino start and otherwise have a 50/50 timeshare. He can't hit, and he can't really defend anymore, and his ability to call pitches is extremely dubious nowadays. His insistence on being some kind of 'iron man' and forcing himself into the lineup each day (which a good manager wouldn't allow) is actively detrimental to both himself and the team, and statements he has made publicly as of late don't help him at all. One recent example of his 'play every day' attitude comes in the form of his foot injury from earlier this year. I don't think his foot ever properly healed, so him pushing through an injury like that is incredibly dumb.

Man, if we had some competent media in this town, they'd actually be asking tough questions like that (i.e. why the hell Molina plays so much), but they don't. They simply kowtow to the Cardinals and give everyone a free pass on everything all the damn time. In the rare event that someone does ask a somewhat tough question, the response seems indignant (especially by Shildt) and the asker always backs off and usually goes on some Twitter apology tour for daring to question the team's decision-making. It's sickening.

sc4mayor · PostAug 07, 2021#7552021-08-07T15:13+00:00

^ Pretty damn well said.

I don’t totally agree about Yadi (to be clear I don’t totally disagree either). But otherwise, pretty great points.

DTGstl314 · PostAug 07, 2021#7562021-08-07T19:01+00:00

Trololzilla wrote: ↑
Aug 07, 2021
ibleedlou wrote: ↑
Aug 06, 2021
We need a Two Cardinal Way announcement to distract us from the awful season the Cards are having.
Right! I haven't watched a game in two years. It's like a completely different organization lately, and until MO is gone and the sense of urgency to compete at the highest level returns, I'll stick to Blues games from here in Minnesota.
Mo isn't the problem. There is no 'sense of urgency' because there's no need for one. This year was always pegged for a transition year by the organization and only the gas station fans feel otherwise. The Cardinals simply had to wait for the transition from its older, costlier players to come off the books corresponding with some of the talent in the system graduating to the big leagues, both of which happen after this season when a crapton of dead salary comes off the books and some of the prospects near the top should be ready for a shot. There's a lot of exciting talent in the minors right now, and the hole caused by the 2017 draft (or lack thereof) is finally closing.

The Cardinals shoot for 90 wins each year (+/- 10 wins, or about 1 SD); that's the goal that ownership sets for the FO and it's what they've accomplished remarkably well for nearly 15 years now - just be competitive and get into the playoffs, since they're just a crapshoot anyway. It's not like this team is bad - there was just too little depth to open the season with and it became exposed with the extraordinary amount of injuries that the team has gone through, plus markedly bad variance in the year-to-year bullpen performance combined with a manager that is utterly incompetent. With normal injury luck, this team is very likely leading the division - they were leading before the injuries started to pile on. The Cubs 'dynasty' is done; the Reds don't know how to build a team; the Pirates are a few years away from being a threat; and the Brewers aren't in a great spot either. They have a terrible system, lack depth, and their bullpen isn't the monster it once was. Their season has been propped up entirely by a rotation way overperforming their career norms and might be a problem down the line, since practically all of them have entered uncharted territory in terms of innings pitched over a single season. Look for arm injuries for them in the near future.

The Cardinals are very well poised to take advantage of the next few years financially and in terms of what they have coming up through the pipeline. The only things we'll have to wait and see on are whether or not the DH comes to the NL (which it will) or if there will even be a season next year, which I'm not too confident about. Wouldn't be surprised to see another labor stoppage get rid of about half the season at least, since Tony Clark is a nincompoop and will manufacture stuff to take umbrage about. Lost revenues like that again might actually be pretty detrimental to the team.

If anybody needs to go, it's DeWitt - a lot of the legacy contracts are solely because of him and his clinging to 'tradition' and the 'Cardinal Way'. Molina especially either needs to go or be willing to accept that he's not very good anymore and play at most every Waino start and otherwise have a 50/50 timeshare. He can't hit, and he can't really defend anymore, and his ability to call pitches is extremely dubious nowadays. His insistence on being some kind of 'iron man' and forcing himself into the lineup each day (which a good manager wouldn't allow) is actively detrimental to both himself and the team, and statements he as made publicly as of late don't help him at all. I don't think his foot ever properly healed, so him pushing through an injury like that is incredibly dumb.

Man, if we had some competent media in this town, they'd actually be asking tough questions like that (i.e. why the hell Molina plays so much), but they don't. They simply kowtow to the Cardinals and give everyone a free pass on everything all the damn time. In the rare event that someone does ask a somewhat tough question, the response seems indignant (especially by Shildt) and the asker always backs off and usually goes on some Twitter apology tour for daring to question the team's decision-making. It's sickening.

So... is Arenado a Cardinal next year or not? I assume so, mainly because it's questionable whether or not he could actually command a substantially larger contract than the one he already has if he opted out right now. Especially with the tenuous state of the CBA negotiations.

ibleedlou · PostAug 07, 2021#7572021-08-07T23:31+00:00

Trololzilla wrote: ↑
Aug 07, 2021
ibleedlou wrote: ↑
Aug 06, 2021
We need a Two Cardinal Way announcement to distract us from the awful season the Cards are having.
Right! I haven't watched a game in two years. It's like a completely different organization lately, and until MO is gone and the sense of urgency to compete at the highest level returns, I'll stick to Blues games from here in Minnesota.
Mo isn't the problem. There is no 'sense of urgency' because there's no need for one. This year was always pegged for a transition year by the organization and only the gas station fans feel otherwise. The Cardinals simply had to wait for the transition from its older, costlier players to come off the books corresponding with some of the talent in the system graduating to the big leagues, both of which happen after this season when a crapton of dead salary comes off the books and some of the prospects near the top should be ready for a shot. There's a lot of exciting talent in the minors right now, and the hole caused by the 2017 draft (or lack thereof) is finally closing.

The Cardinals shoot for 90 wins each year (+/- 10 wins, or about 1 SD); that's the goal that ownership sets for the FO and it's what they've accomplished remarkably well for nearly 15 years now - just be competitive and get into the playoffs, since they're just a crapshoot anyway. It's not like this team is bad - there was just too little depth to open the season with and it became exposed with the extraordinary amount of injuries that the team has gone through, plus markedly bad variance in the year-to-year bullpen performance combined with a manager that is utterly incompetent. With normal injury luck, this team is very likely leading the division - they were leading before the injuries started to pile on. The Cubs 'dynasty' is done; the Reds don't know how to build a team; the Pirates are a few years away from being a threat; and the Brewers aren't in a great spot either. They have a terrible system, lack depth, and their bullpen isn't the monster it once was. Their season has been propped up entirely by a rotation way overperforming their career norms and might be a problem down the line, since practically all of them have entered uncharted territory in terms of innings pitched over a single season. Look for arm injuries for them in the near future.

The Cardinals are very well poised to take advantage of the next few years financially and in terms of what they have coming up through the pipeline. The only things we'll have to wait and see on are whether or not the DH comes to the NL (which it will) or if there will even be a season next year, which I'm not too confident about. Wouldn't be surprised to see another labor stoppage get rid of about half the season at least, since Tony Clark is a nincompoop and will manufacture stuff to take umbrage about. Lost revenues like that again might actually be pretty detrimental to the team.

If anybody needs to go, it's DeWitt - a lot of the legacy contracts are solely because of him and his clinging to 'tradition' and the 'Cardinal Way'. Molina especially either needs to go or be willing to accept that he's not very good anymore and play at most every Waino start and otherwise have a 50/50 timeshare. He can't hit, and he can't really defend anymore, and his ability to call pitches is extremely dubious nowadays. His insistence on being some kind of 'iron man' and forcing himself into the lineup each day (which a good manager wouldn't allow) is actively detrimental to both himself and the team, and statements he as made publicly as of late don't help him at all. I don't think his foot ever properly healed, so him pushing through an injury like that is incredibly dumb.

Man, if we had some competent media in this town, they'd actually be asking tough questions like that (i.e. why the hell Molina plays so much), but they don't. They simply kowtow to the Cardinals and give everyone a free pass on everything all the damn time. In the rare event that someone does ask a somewhat tough question, the response seems indignant (especially by Shildt) and the asker always backs off and usually goes on some Twitter apology tour for daring to question the team's decision-making. It's sickening.

MO is doing DeWitt's bidding, sure, and because of this, he hasn't been fired, but his misses are far too vast for him to be an effective GM, which he isn't. If he were, MO wouldn't get so much blame by baseball aficionados for his poor drafting, questionable extensions, lack of quality free agent signings, or ability to win trades. Back to drafting, we can't blame poor drafting and player development on DeWitt, this is the GM, this is cost controlled young talent we aren't seeing enough of, even though the Cardinals draft positions have improved many times since 2015. Crap load of talent?...our top prospects rank 18 of 30 teams right now. This isn't DeWitt, this is MO's responsibility and so far I'd say he's done a subpar job of it.

LaRussa was effective at improving the club. He demanded we fill holes when they were identified, and holes were filled promptly, by this same frugal ownership. This proves DeWitt can be persuaded, and has been persuaded in the past to make moves to get the Cardinals to another level. MO thrived as GM when LaRussa was coach (Tony was calling the shots) and Lunhow was drafting, because LaRussa wasn't a company man, demanded the Cards improve when needed, while also having an eye for talent, which MO hasn't proved he has the eye for. If MO isn't willing to bring in another LaRussa type coach, who will demand the things MO himself can't demand, I'm going to have to keep pointing a finger at MO, even though I know the challenges run beyond his inabilities.

Trololzilla · PostAug 08, 2021#7582021-08-08T11:00+00:00

DTGstl314 wrote: ↑
Aug 07, 2021

So... is Arenado a Cardinal next year or not? I assume so, mainly because it's questionable whether or not he could actually command a substantially larger contract than the one he already has if he opted out right now. Especially with the tenuous state of the CBA negotiations.

Almost no chance Arenado opts out after 2021, given the CBA uncertainty. 2022 is another story - if the labor dispute doesn't become a big thing and he has a great season, I could see him opting out and testing the market. And, to be completely honest, it would absolutely be in the best interest of the club for him to do so. As good as he is, we don't need to be paying for the expensive decline years of an aging 3B. Those kinds of contracts are what's clogging up the team right now. Furthermore, he's blocking Gorman and a few other good prospects over at 3B. To be clear, I don't want Arenado to leave per se, but I wouldn't hate it, and it might end up being a blessing in disguise.

PostAug 08, 2021#7592021-08-08T12:11+00:00

ibleedlou wrote: ↑
Aug 07, 2021
MO is doing DeWitt's bidding, sure, and because of this, he hasn't been fired, but his misses are far too vast for him to be an effective GM, which he isn't. If he were, MO wouldn't get so much blame by baseball aficionados for his poor drafting, questionable extensions, lack of quality free agent signings, or ability to win trades. Back to drafting, we can't blame poor drafting and player development on DeWitt, this is the GM, this is cost controlled young talent we aren't seeing enough of, even though the Cardinals draft positions have improved many times since 2015. Crap load of talent?...our top prospects rank 18 of 30 teams right now. This isn't DeWitt, this is MO's responsibility and so far I'd say he's done a subpar job of it.

LaRussa was effective at improving the club. He demanded we fill holes when they were identified, and holes were filled promptly, by this same frugal ownership. This proves DeWitt can be persuaded, and has been persuaded in the past to make moves to get the Cardinals to another level. MO thrived as GM when LaRussa was coach (Tony was calling the shots) and Lunhow was drafting, because LaRussa wasn't a company man, demanded the Cards improve when needed, while also having an eye for talent, which MO hasn't proved he has the eye for. If MO isn't willing to bring in another LaRussa type coach, who will demand the things MO himself can't demand, I'm going to have to keep pointing a finger at MO, even though I know the challenges run beyond his inabilities.

See, this is the gas station stuff I was talking about.

First of all, Mo is not the GM anymore; Girsch is. Mo is the President of Baseball Ops. While people can argue that what Mo and Girsch got were simply lateral promotions, and I have no doubt Mo is still heavily involved in the GM processes, the position Mozeliak is in now is one that has a much more 'long-term' aspect to thinking as well as a much broader view of the organization. Mo is responsible for the long-term health of the big league club and is also responsible for the overall health of the minors. For all intents and purposes, Girsch is probably the one fulfilling most of the day-to-day GM duties and managing negotiations and such.
Dude, ownership is who sets yearly goals and overall organizational foci, not to mention is who sets the budget. It is literally the job of Mo/Girsch to carry out those plans within the confines of any limitations set by ownership, regardless of how they may feel about it personally. I highly doubt Mo is the one wanting to hand out contracts to our aging veterans like candy, but it's what DeWitt wants for 'legacy' reasons, so that's what happens. They have to stay within certain boundaries set by ownership, but they're fairly free to work within them. For all the flak that the FO gets from fans, they do a remarkable job of keeping the team competitive every year - we haven't had a losing season since 2007(!), literally the first year of Mo's tenure at the top, when he had to salvage the organization from the flaming wreckage of the last year of Jocketty's leadership. That kind of entitled whining from Cardinals fans is why no other fanbases can stand us.
MO wouldn't get so much blame by baseball aficionados for his poor drafting, questionable extensions, lack of quality free agent signings, or ability to win trades.
Mo doesn't run the draft either - he, along with input from ownership, just set the overall draft goals and lets whoever is in charge of running the draft run it. I'm sure he's part of the final say, but most of it gets handled by the Assistant GM Randy Flores, who has done a fantastic job of running the draft since he was put in charge of it. The questionable extensions, again, are by and large by order of the owner. He can't really say no. The 'lack of quality free agent signings' is pretty baseless too - players like Leake and Fowler were fallback options, sure, but the thought process was solid. They literally thought they had signed David Price until the Sawx swooped in at the last minute with a ludicrous sum of money (and they dodged a bullet there, to be fair). The Fowler deal was done only because their top prospect and Plan A for the outfield, the number three prospect in all of baseball literally died and their initial pivot ran to the Cubs. Was the deal a year too long? Absolutely, but them's the breaks sometimes with contract negotiations. It's all a give-and-take thing. Name me one trade Mo's truly lost - I bet I can prove it wasn't really a loss. People also tend to forget: you don't trade players, you trade contracts.
Back to drafting, we can't blame poor drafting and player development on DeWitt, this is the GM, this is cost controlled young talent we aren't seeing enough of, even though the Cardinals draft positions have improved many times since 2015. Crap load of talent?...our top prospects rank 18 of 30 teams right now. This isn't DeWitt, this is MO's responsibility and so far I'd say he's done a subpar job of it.
Our top prospects don't rank number 18, the system does - or did, in 2020; it's 17 now. 17th/18th isn't even that bad of a ranking. The only NLC club with a higher ranking are the Pirates. Expect our system to rank in the top third of all clubs by next year - some older prospects that looked like busts (like Plummer and Perez) are finally having great years this year and are moving back into real prospect status, there's been a lot of aggressive promotions this year, so a lot of the talent at the lower levels is percolating towards AA and AAA and holding their own by and large, and there are some very, very exciting prospects down in the low minors. The Cardinals draft position hasn't markedly improved since 2015 - it was 18th this year, 21st in 2020, 19th in 2019 and 2018, 94th(!) in 2017, and 23rd in 2016 and 2015. The Cardinals have picked at 18th-23rd 8 out of the last 10 years; the highest ranking in the last 23 years was only 13th. For having such middle-of-the-pack draft positions for so long, the team does remarkably well at building a farm system. The only reason that the system was ranked as low as it was was a product of essentially a lost draft (2017), no minor league season last year with which to evaluate talent, and also the system's own effectiveness - when you graduate a lot of prospects to the majors, as the Cards have over the last few years, your farm system obviously takes a hit. If you say we never have talent - just look at the major league roster. Most of it is homegrown, and it was an even higher percentage not long ago. The same loss of ranking happens when you're forced to consolidate depth into other players because there are only so many roster spots. Fans are always complaining that we never have any 'star' players, but then also b**** even after depth consolidation trades over the last two years have brought us Paul Goldschmidt and Nolan Arenado, two of the best players at their respective positions in the majors. Lets also not forget the Holliday deal back in the day. How lucky are we as fans?
LaRussa was effective at improving the club. He demanded we fill holes when they were identified, and holes were filled promptly, by this same frugal ownership. This proves DeWitt can be persuaded, and has been persuaded in the past to make moves to get the Cardinals to another level. MO thrived as GM when LaRussa was coach (Tony was calling the shots) and Lunhow was drafting, because LaRussa wasn't a company man, demanded the Cards improve when needed, while also having an eye for talent, which MO hasn't proved he has the eye for. If MO isn't willing to bring in another LaRussa type coach, who will demand the things MO himself can't demand, I'm going to have to keep pointing a finger at MO, even though I know the challenges run beyond his inabilities.
Hoo boy. Do we really want another LaRussa type person, though? The last time a manager insisted on having a certain type of player to 'fill a hole' was Matheny's insistence of having a 'bonafide MLB closer'. His insistence eventually forced the FO to act, and what followed was the absolute disaster that was Greg Holland. Let's not have that again. Mo also doesn't really hire the manager - DeWitt does. DeWitt wanted 'company men' to fill the role after LaRussa left, so we get the abhorring Tweedledee and Tweedledum duo of Matheny and Shildt. Shildt is good at managing people. Matheny was... handsome? Both are absolutely horrible at the field managing aspects of their jobs. Both make the same dumb choices - incredibly suboptimal bullpen usage, the infuriating usage of intentional walks, stupidly playing players out of position (outside of an emergency), utilizing benches poorly, not benching injured veterans (cough *Yadi*), benching rookies for having a bad day, and, most infuriating of all, NEVER LEARNING FROM MISTAKES. The list goes on and on - Matheny was, and Shildt is actively costing us wins at this point. It's time to move on from Shildt, for sure, but the Cardinals need to look for a fresh perspective, not another 'company man'. Someone more analytically minded, preferably. Or at least someone that is actually willing and capable of learning from their mistakes. A Gabe Kapler type manager would be a nice change, I think.

If you haven't yet, I highly recommend any Cardinals fans here to head over to VEB to get a much more analytically-minded and nuanced look at what the Cardinals do and why.

ibleedlou · PostAug 08, 2021#7602021-08-08T22:25+00:00

I know MO's title, and mentioned Luhnow, which should make it obvious I know a little about who is charge of player development, scouting, drafting, etc. from some time ago, and who falls under MO's responsibilities. Come on now...everyone is a know it all, yet you can't see nuance in a baseball conversation?

Do we really want another LaRussa you ask? Do you want to win another World Series? If it's not MO's fault for being unable to persuade ownership to go beyond their comfort zone (as LaRussa did) then this is what we get, uninspiring baseball. We can blame Matheny, Shildt, and Molina all we want, but they are under the system MO built. Btw, Matheny won with talent, but like others, struggles without it, so firing Matheny or Shildt will do very little to change things without a voice of leadership running this organization. So, do we want another La Russa type? I do, but I like watching winning baseball.

I'd prefer our GM has the minerals to sway ownership, not the coach. However, I do want someone with LaRussa's leadership and mind for the game, in both positions, with an ability to persuade ownership when it's needed. Theo Epstein is that type (and I gag saying this). Goes into Chicago puts together a WS winner, first time in over a 100 years. Suddenly, the Cubs stop trying to improve the team and what does Theo do? He leaves Chicago abruptly! I don't like Epstein, but he showed he's no company man willing to accept losing, by getting out. I also give him credit for not sitting there trying to convince us on how hard it is to make moves these days, like some other bimbo presiding over the Cards. Btw, look at the Cubs since Theo left, should we blame the coach?

You disagree where as I see a stark contrast between organizations with leadership vs. those without. All we have to do is look to Doug Armstrong and the infusion of leadership he brought to the Blue's organization and compare it to the void of leadership under the Mozelaik run Cardinals, and we quickly see the ascent of one team since Doug's arrival in 2013 vs. the descent of the other team, since leadership left in 2011. It's just my opinion, but I'm sticking with it.
BTW, as for improving our draft position, here is our best/worst draft spot in 5 year increments for the first round working back from this year:
2021-2017- 18/21
2016- 2011- 19/23
2010- 2006- 13/30
2005- 2001- 19/28

DTGstl314 · PostAug 10, 2021#7612021-08-10T05:49+00:00

I'm sure some people here are aware of this, but technically speaking, John Mozeliak is not the Cardinals General Manager, and hasn't officially held that title since 2017. He is the President of Baseball Operations. The Cardinals current General Manager is Mike Girsch.

But yes, I know that functionally Mozeliak is still basically doing the same thing he was doing before he got the new title, and that Girsch can't do any personnel changes independently without Mo's approval.

Trololzilla · PostAug 10, 2021#7622021-08-10T08:23+00:00

ibleedlou wrote: ↑
Aug 08, 2021
I know MO's title, and mentioned Luhnow, which should make it obvious I know a little about who is charge of player development, scouting, drafting, etc. from some time ago, and who falls under MO's responsibilities. Come on now...everyone is a know it all, yet you can't see nuance in a baseball conversation?

Staffing and titles from "some time ago" aren't really relevant to today though. And once again, Mo isn't actually in charge of any of those things - Randy Flores is, and Flores has done a phenomenal job so far in his role. Not seeing that it's obvious you know that. Mo just sets organizational priorities and lets his subordinates handle most of the dirty work.

Do we really want another LaRussa you ask? Do you want to win another World Series? If it's not MO's fault for being unable to persuade ownership to go beyond their comfort zone (as LaRussa did) then this is what we get, uninspiring baseball. We can blame Matheny, Shildt, and Molina all we want, but they are under the system MO built. Btw, Matheny won with talent, but like others, struggles without it, so firing Matheny or Shildt will do very little to change things without a voice of leadership running this organization. So, do we want another La Russa type? I do, but I like watching winning baseball.

I never disagreed that we don't need a new manager; we absolutely do, but a LaRussa type is not relevant in the world of modern baseball. The success of the White Sox this year has far, far more to do with the talent of their team than their manager. Matheny also never won anything. Sure, he had some decent regular season winning records but dicked away more than one postseason series. I have no doubt that Matheny cost us the 2013 WS and the 2014 NLCS. Otherwise, he actively sabotaged our chances at winning anything. The Cardinals have a lot of talent this year; unusually bad injury luck nullified a lot of that, and Shildt has magnified it with perpetually dumb in-game decisions. As for winning baseball: I will say that most Cardinals fans seeming to be entitled to having a great, winning team each year is exactly why other teams' fans hate us. We are incredibly spoiled with how much our team wins year in and year out and also with how much undeserved postseason success we have, not to mention having ownership that sets out to win 90ish games each year and does so successfully almost all the time. The Cardinals are the third winningest team in all of baseball since 2008, yet everyone freaks out and demands heads roll once a single season doesn't go the right way, largely for uncontrollable reasons. Did Cardinals fans forget about the fact that the Cardinals having had entire decades where they've sucked? They sucked in the 50s, they sucked in the 70s, and they sucked for half of the 80s and most of the 90s. We are incredibly lucky as fans.

Theo Epstein is that type (and I gag saying this). Goes into Chicago puts together a WS winner, first time in over a 100 years. Suddenly, the Cubs stop trying to improve the team and what does Theo do? He leaves Chicago abruptly! I don't like Epstein, but he showed he's no company man willing to accept losing, by getting out.

Theo is also the sole reason that the Cubs stopped having success and stopped improving. He gutted their entire farm system to make a WS run, which was barely successful, and probably wouldn't have been without the rain delay. Sure, you could argue that it was worth it since everyone is trying to win the WS, but long-term sustained success is much harder to achieve and much better for the overall success of an organization. Theo destroyed that for the Cubs, and it'll take a good while for them to dig themselves out of that hole. Long-term sustained success is precisely what Mo has excelled at. The club has been in contention almost every single one of those years as well, which is the team's goal - do just enough to be in contention, get in the playoffs, and then anything can happen in the playoffs since they're almost entirely random. Armstrong comp is mostly irrelevant since the two sports are very different in how a GM can operate, both in terms of transactions and financial constraints.

BTW, as for improving our draft position, here is our best/worst draft spot in 5 year increments for the first round working back from this year:
2021-2017- 18/21
2016- 2011- 19/23
2010- 2006- 13/30
2005- 2001- 19/28

I stated pretty much exactly this, so I'm not sure what your point is. Sometimes you have good years that drop your draft pick, sometimes you suck. The Cardinals shoot in the middle, so they almost always have middling draft picks. If you're implying that they were more successful from 2000-2010, perhaps you're right, but Jocketty isn't really the type of GM you want around nowadays. He gutted our farm system for win-now moves and got incredibly lucky that almost all of them panned out, not to mention lucking into one of the best players of all time falling to them in the draft and being able to build around him. He also couldn't build a rotation to save his life.

symphonicpoet · PostAug 24, 2021#7632021-08-24T03:35+00:00

That's some pretty piss-poor attendance there, but it still looks like fun. At least you saw a winner.

sc4mayor · PostAug 24, 2021#7642021-08-24T16:10+00:00

^ Still better than a Marlins or Royals game hehe!

In all seriousness though I don't blame people for not going when the team is this bad. It's expensive. I get free tickets and free parking in the West Garage and it's still a hundred bucks or more just go for an afternoon when it's all said and done.

RockChalkSTL · PostAug 24, 2021#7652021-08-24T16:21+00:00

I'm as diehard about the Cardinals as anyone else, and thus as disappointed as anyone else, but I think it's a lot more fair to say that this team is mediocre instead of "bad."

The team is 63-60 and just 4.5 games out of the playoffs, with six games remaining against the team they currently need to catch.

I'd hate to see what Busch Stadium turnout would be if this team were truly bad, on the level of the Kansas City Royals, Baltimore Orioles, Pittsburgh Pirates, or Arizona Diamondbacks.

ldai_phs · PostAug 24, 2021#7662021-08-24T16:22+00:00

symphonicpoet wrote:That's some pretty piss-poor attendance there, but it still looks like fun. At least you saw a winner.

Great ticket prices and a generally great show!!!

sc4mayor · PostAug 24, 2021#7672021-08-24T16:25+00:00

KansasCitian wrote: ↑
Aug 24, 2021
I'm as diehard about the Cardinals as anyone else, and thus as disappointed as anyone else, but I think it's a lot more fair to say that this team is mediocre instead of "bad."

The team is 63-60 and just 4.5 games out of the playoffs, with six games remaining against the team they currently need to catch.

I'd hate to see what Busch Stadium turnout would be if this team were truly bad, on the level of the Kansas City Royals, Baltimore Orioles, Pittsburgh Pirates, or Arizona Diamondbacks.

Fair enough. I suppose us St. Louisans are accustomed to more from the local baseball team. But you're right. Middling and boring would be better than flat out bad. Still, the Pirates managed to take two from us

RockChalkSTL · PostAug 24, 2021#7682021-08-24T17:01+00:00

I mean, we are accustomed to more from the team, and I didn't deny that I am disappointed with the team, too.

The Pirates series was very frustrating, but they've put a few thorns in our side over the years.

I don't know why, but I'm vividly remembering Opening Day from 2009. Cardinals led 4-2 going into the 9th but allowed four runs and lost when Jason Motte imploded.

Trololzilla · PostAug 25, 2021#7692021-08-25T07:14+00:00

I mean, "middling and boring" is literally the direction the team has used to build clubs for like 10 years now.

Laife Fulk · PostAug 25, 2021#7702021-08-25T14:01+00:00

Over the last 10 years (not including this year because we don't know how things will end up just yet), the Cardinals have made the post season 7 times, made it to the World Series twice and won it once. Would it be nice if they were a super team who won 100 games every year? Absolutely. But I don't know if I'd call their recent success middling and boring.

BellaVilla · PostAug 25, 2021#7712021-08-25T15:51+00:00

They haven't been a legitimate pennant contender since 2015. The Front Office lacks vision and has demonstrated a troubling inability to assess its own talent. Sad for a front office that was at the forefront of the analytics movement 20 years ago. These failures have led to a boring, mediorce product that fans don't want to pay for. I can't blame them.

Laife Fulk · PostAug 25, 2021#7722021-08-25T16:00+00:00

Let's take this over to the Cardinals baseball thread.

BellaVilla · PostAug 25, 2021#7732021-08-25T16:04+00:00

(From the Ballpark Village thread)

They haven't been a legitimate pennant contender since 2015. The Front Office lacks vision and has demonstrated a troubling inability to assess its own talent. Sad for a front office that was at the forefront of the analytics movement 20 years ago. These failures have led to a boring, mediorce product that fans don't want to pay for. I can't blame them.

Laife Fulk · PostAug 25, 2021#7742021-08-25T18:54+00:00

I disagree, to an extent. What's really hurt this year is injuries. A healthy Flaherty, Mikolas, Kim, and Hudson all in the rotation with Wainwright plus a healthy Hicks and CMart both in the bullpen would have them leading the second Wild Card and possibly even leading the division. Letting Wong go still infuriates me, and I can get behind blaming the front office for that wrong decision. But I don't think it's an inability to assess internal talent as much as it is their overconfidence in players remaining healthy.

Also, I don't think the team is boring at all. Watching O'Neil and Bader play gold glove defense with their speed and arms is exciting. Arenado and Goldschmidt are really fun to watch play defense on the infield. Edman, Bader and O'Neil are blazing fast on the bases. Etc, etc. It's just bad pitching that's sunk them and overshadows the more fun elements to me.

BellaVilla · PostAug 25, 2021#7752021-08-25T21:47+00:00

It was industry wide knowledge that the Cardinals pitching was thin, but they were too cheap to grab some available veterans. But Pitching injuries are not all that's hurt. You point out the failure to re-sign Kolten Wong which was based, in part, on the FO's poor assessment of Tommy Edman's abilities. The FO failed to evaluate Luke Voit resulting in the VERY expensive Goldschmidt acquisition that has yet to exceed mediocre returns. Then there's the obvious failure to build a decent bench.

The FO also failed to accurately evaluate Arozarena, Jose Adolis Garcia, Marco Gonzales, Aledmys Diaz, and Tommy Pham. Each failure to evaluate led to trades where the Cardinals left significant value on the table.

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