urbanSTL

I get the fact they haven’t been able to fill the jobs,  but let’s not forget the city has been competing with surrounding municipalities that are paying at a much better rate. The real issue is pay. Also, to some extent the newly created stigma of being a police officer.   If you recall, the city is getting $500m.  I think they can allocate some of that money to recruit new officers to fill some of those positions.  I agree, they need to fix the 911 system but if there’s not enough officers on the street and they are getting enormous numbers of calls, they will not get responded to anyway.

Also, I think some forget the fact that it takes a significant amount of time to implement all of these new programs and put all of these new people in these new positions. As you can see, Cure violence has not really made a splash. Whether it does in the end, who knows but it takes time, lots of time in a City with the level of violence, poverty and disconnect we have here.

Regarding the “militarization of the city“, I see the exact opposite. I can go in entire day or multiple days without even seeing an officer driving down the street. It used to be way different.  I firmly believe police presence especially in residential neighborhoods makes a difference.  While officers can’t be everywhere at once, the perception that the neighborhood is being patrolled and watched over, not only gives criminals a second thought, but also gives residents especially elderly residents peace of mind. Those who sleep to the sound of gunshots would love to see way more police around. I think the public opinion has swayed to try new public safety measures due to police shootings in the media. Many of these new philosophies in public safety are unproven or i their infancy. Time will tell, but what works in one city may not work in the other.

I think the reality some people fail to face is the fact that our urban core/downtown is surrounded by some of the most impoverished places in the Midwest and maybe even in the country.   Of course that needs to be addressed, but policing is a part of that situation. There will always be crime and you cannot prevent all of it with programs being implemented by Mayor Jones.

As I’ve stated for hopefully the last time, many, many ‘experts’ have cited the shortage of officers as a significant part of the problem. Whether they can fill the jobs or not a strong effort needs to be put in place to get some more officers on the streets.   If there’s a will, there’s away. Coming off of a devastating  pandemic, people are desperate for work.

The complete (at least apparent) absence of police in the street was one of the first things that I noticed when I moved to St. Louis, and I remarked on this often. This was very different from everywhere else I lived in. This is why I was extremely surprised when I first looked at the numbers and realized that St. Louis had one of the largest ratios police/population. I just assumed that there is so so much crime in the city that the officers are all busy in North city or something. 
The only exception was when I lived in Soulard, as there was a private security cruiser constantly driving through the streets. It did affect my (and other people's) perception of safety in the neighborhood.

^That didn’t used to be the case. The major problem that developed over time, as the tax base has shrunk, the City has had a terrible time keeping salaries competitive in comparison to the County & other munis. Then the anti-police mentality that has unfairly blanketed all police officers has made the profession less attractive. I get the recruiting challenges the City has. In the end, the great majority of officers want to make a living, make it home after a shift & retire with a nice pension in the future. The thought that an altercation or shooting could end your life or put you in jail is a tough sell. While most support police, the anti-police rhetoric is going to make police recruiting (of good, qualified cops, there for the right reasons) a difficult job.

Police departments are going to have to mold people into quality police officers going forward. They are going to be recruiting from a way different pool of candidates.

In the end though, with the right incentives and the right people recruiting and marketing, doing job fairs, hiring and training, the city should be able to fill the shortage with good people... IMO.... assuming the funding is there.

"I just assumed that there is so so much crime in the city that the officers are all busy in North city or something."

Same. And I think there's some truth to that; I know the department went big on "hotspot" policing over the last few years. Officers that might otherwise patrol the quieter neighborhoods were instead directed to overload certain areas where more crime is/was expected to occur. No idea whether this actually work(ed) or to what degree that's still the case. 

^All great points!

Stltoday - ‘Law enforcement is not the solution’; Jones looks to upend city approach to crime

https://www.stltoday.com/news/local/cri ... affef.html

All this will do is basically further fragment our city. The haves will move to more of a private security force to enforce their boundaries and the have nots will receive less protection for person and property.

It is an awful irony that this “social experiment” will adversely effect the poorest and minorities.

*of course, the above is nothing without a solution. So what I would do is use this FED bailout money and bring the dept’s pay well above our peers in the surrounding region. Use other monies to recruit LEO’s from other areas to move here. Also, I would make a commitment that the admin fully supports its dept and will stand by it. Not to be without scrutiny, there will need to be trust that the dept will remove unfit and criminal elements of the force. Lastly, the issue of the circuit attorney. Not really sure here. It’s an elected position and she’s on for the foreseeable future.

2 people were murdered along with 12 people wounded from gunshots this weekend.

https://www.audacy.com/kmox/news/local/ ... n-st-louis

We're up at 66 murders this year. We had 48 or 49 last this time last year. If we keep up with this +18 or +17 number, we'll be at 280 or 281 homicides by year end. That's atrocious for a City like St. Louis, but there's nothing really that can be done. Criminals will continue to kill each other and kill innocent people. Social workers will be put in harms way too because when bad people have their mind set on what they want to do, then they too may turn into a victim. I hope that the social worker has adequate protection when dealing with said person and other people. This is all a grand experiment that'll come at a cost.

kipfilet wrote: ↑

Apr 27, 2021

So what is the plan now, hoping that all the idiots with guns in the city shoot each other dead and the problem goes away by itself?

At this point I am simply hoping that the above happens. Last night we had a ton of gunfire just a block away from our house, never had it so close. Every house on my block turned their lights on at 3am, it was absolutely insane. 3 police cruisers arrived 20 min later but obviously the idiots were long gone. Things like this make me feel really dumb for not having moved to the county yet. 

^Kip, what neighborhood are you in? I'm in Holly Hills and pretty sure I heard it too; sounded like a war zone for a couple minutes.

Tower Grove East, last week has been particularly bad. Hopefully it was isolated.

Wow, sorry to hear that. We occasionally hear gunfire in Carondelet Park but for some reason that feels distant, even though its right outside our front door. I can stand on my back deck any give night and hear gunfire north and east of us in Dutchtown/Carondelet/Patch, but nothing as visceral as down the block in my own neighborhood.  While it's in someone else's neighborhood now, seems like only a matter of time until it comes to Holly Hills, too.

We hear plenty of gunfire from adjacent neighborhoods (Benton Park West, Gravois Park, etc.) and we are already quite used to that (I still think it's crazy for someone to write that they are used to gunfire) but this was the first time we heard it in the neighborhood proper, pretty scary.

Out here in U City, we hear gunfire on a semi-regular basis. The "discussions" on Nextdoor always debate exactly where the shots are coming from. Original perceptions seem to be misleading, as the police usually follow up by telling us the shots were actually quite a distance away from where most people thought. 

And don't get me started on the fireworks vs. gunshots debate. 

framer wrote: ↑

May 04, 2021

Out here in U City, we hear gunfire on a semi-regular basis. The "discussions" on Nextdoor always debate exactly where the shots are coming from. Original perceptions seem to be misleading, as the police usually follow up by telling us the shots were actually quite a distance away from where most people thought. 

And don't get me started on the fireworks vs. gunshots debate. 

Same thing here in Soulard.  Maybe every few weeks I'll happen to be home/awake when I hear them and they usually sound half mile away or more if I had to guess. The thing is my mom's condo is near 370 in St. Charles--so on the edge of town--and I hear what are either fireworks or shotguns going off from time to time there too. Considering there are road/highway signs pockmarked I would assume yahoos are at least sometimes not on their own property when discharging firearms. Yet people have a different attitude out there and don't consider that "gunfire" the same way they do if it happens in an urban setting. 

Anyone have any intel on the situation in the wealthier parts of the 'burbs?  Like outside 255/270 to the county line?

Someone above mentioned finally moving to the county, and my wife and I now have that very conversation more often than I'd like. She's increasingly open to it, but for now I'm taking the position that there's trouble everywhere, or at least everywhere we could realistically afford and desire to live.

SB in BH wrote: ↑

May 04, 2021

Anyone have any intel on the situation in the wealthier parts of the 'burbs?  Like outside 255/270 to the county line?

Someone above mentioned finally moving to the county, and my wife and I now have that very conversation more often than I'd like. She's increasingly open to it, but for now I'm taking the position that there's trouble everywhere, or at least everywhere we could realistically afford and desire to live.

Most of my coworkers live in Frontenac, Ladue, and Clayton and things seem to be fine over there. We would probably move to one of those areas or Webster Groves if we end up leaving the city. 

SB in BH wrote:Anyone have any intel on the situation in the wealthier parts of the 'burbs?  Like outside 255/270 to the county line?

Someone above mentioned finally moving to the county, and my wife and I now have that very conversation more often than I'd like. She's increasingly open to it, but for now I'm taking the position that there's trouble everywhere, or at least everywhere we could realistically afford and desire to live.

I grew up in Oakville. Parents still live there. It's staying decent, but then again, it's Oakville.

Sent from my LM-V600 using Tapatalk

Wealthier burbs gonna wealthier burb. Be they in STL or elsewhere.  

I've lived "OnTheEdge" of the city (Shrewsbury) for the past four years.  Never heard a single gunshot.  I walk my dog at all times of the night around the neighborhood without a care.  The only violent crimes I can recall happening during my time living here have been a couple of domestic incidents.

I've lived in various city neighborhoods for decades before that and, tho there were numerous factors, probably the main reason for leaving for a more stable neighborhood was crime.  I love the city and want to see it succeed.  I'm frequently tempted to move back, but at the end of the day, between the crime and policing issues, I've chosen to stay put.

In Crestwood, the main problem is thieves going through unlocked cars (although that seems to have slowed down recently). The same goes for Webster Groves, Kirkwood and Sunset Hills, I believe. Gunfire is not an issue.

Where I live, in Creve Coeur, you start to realize that 1. People are much more spread out so any attempt at robbery is significantly more likely to be targeted and with some motive to the residents. 2. The majority of the municipality is middle wealth some middle upper spread out over many neighborhoods. This is in contrast to the city where upper wealth nieghborhoods are directly next to poorer More desperate neighborhoods. This isn’t a slash on low socio economic areas but there is correlation with crime. The result is the feeling that you live in a dangerous area even though 2 neighborhoods could be completely different worlds. 3. The mentality of most people out here is that the city is dangerous and you don’t want to end up like them so lock everything put alarm systems in etc. In reality this creates a whole city where people feel paranoid and less social. Hopefully later in life I will move into the city... It just feels special however going to college will determine my future path.