I think the 911 system is a bigger issue than the constant inability to fill those officer position. If we can't connect callers with the help they need in the first place, then what's the point? The police force size has become a flashpoint for a more easily identifiable and remedied problem that could have immediate benefits for police officers, social workers, etc. Response time is everything. Maybe I'm ignorant, but if a police officer or social worker can't get the call in the first place, how are they supposed to do their jobs?
It's been the same story for the past 7 years I've been back. People are stuck on hold, or can't get through. Fix it..
^^Exactly!!!! Those calling for less police don’t have to sleep on their living room floor dodging bullets possibly coming through their windows and walls at night. Many of those people in the worst neighborhoods in the city have to live in a war zone every night. Less police presence means more chaos.
^i agree with you on the 911 system. However, let’s say for example it is an extremely busy Saturday night in July. With less police on the streets, response times will go down significantly. That was a major complaint from the people of Minneapolis when the police force was reduced, hence the reason the PD was again funded.
....^i agree with you on the 911 system. However, let’s say for example it is an extremely busy Saturday night in July. With less police on the streets, response times will go down significantly. That was a major complaint from the people of Minneapolis when the police force was reduced, hence the reason the PD was again funded.
The SLPD is not being defunded, and the number of officers on the beat is not being reduced. All that is happening is a reallocation of FTE dollars in the SLPD budget from officer positions that have been open and unfilled for years to other staff positions (dispatchers, social workers, whatever) that hopefully can be filled and make some kind of positive impact in short order. In your hypothetical Saturday night in July, there won't be fewer officers because that's not what's happening; no active duty LEOs are being laid off as a result of this change. Rather, there will likely be more officers available to deal with the war zone because a corp of social workers is dealing with the drug overdoses, domestic disputes, etc. that officers are currently dispatched to handle.
It may not work. Time will tell. But we know pretty conclusively that the status quo is broken so it's time to try something different.
I know for a fact officers are looking to leave via retirement, attrition (moving on to other departments in the area, leaving the profession, etc) . So if you’re not running new academies, The shortage is going to be well beyond the 150 to 200 we currently have. Let’s say for example, a significant number of officers over the next year or so leave. Then you have no new officers ready to hit the streets via the Academy. Then what? Now you have a real problem!
The other problem with your comment is the fact that we are already seeing very poor response times due to the amount of police that are currently on the beat at any particular time. So basically these unacceptable circumstances are going to continue because the shortage will not be addressed . I understand it has been difficult to fill these positions but the way I look at it, if there’s a will there’s a way. With the pandemic in the latter stages, pandemic era unemployment benefits expiring, people will be looking for work. While it is hard to recruit police right now, it can be done.
Btw, my guess is that this hiring freeze is just one of many steps that will be taken by Jones to move funds away from “traditional policing” within the “public safety”. bucket.
My ideal scenario would be to have a fully staffed police force on the backend while on the frontend all of these various prevention programs are being implemented and utilized. I have no issue with those programs but again, policing is a big part of the picture.
I would agree with you if the Mayor was laying off cops and replacing them with social workers, but that's not what's happening.
Again, the money for the currently filled positions isn't going away. LEOs may leave for whatever reason, but their FTE positions will remain in the budget. Reallocating the 200 unfilled FTE positions doesn't change that, nor does it change the recruitment situation for filling FTE positions vacated due to attrition. If one of the 1000+ commissioned LEOs leaves, their position still gets refilled by someone else, whether that's by an academy graduate or a trained officer from another jurisdiction. (And not all academy graduates become SLPD officers anyway).
Attrition/recruitment issues aside, this move will increase the total number of Dept. of Public Safety first responders available for dispatch at any given time. You'll have the current corps of LEOs, plus the newly filled 200 non-LEO positions (that have been vacant for years). This is not a "prevention" program, it is an attempt to grow the department with non-LEO responders, using money that's already in the budget. You're getting a bigger police department, with the same number of cops, who will now have a greater ability to focus on traditional policing while someone else, with more relevant training, handles the domestic ordeals.
I get what you are saying about no additional reductions. That’s all fine and dandy if you are OK with the currently undermanned “traditional policing” numbers. I’m not. I remember when we had good response times and I saw police cruising my area regularly. That is a thing of the past.
Let’s also keep in mind Jones is weeks into her term. It remains to be seen what will become of “public safety’ as she gets settled in. I feel better knowing Isom is involved, but in the end, Jones will call the shots along w/ the BOA.
And I get it. These other forms of public safety ‘officers’ will put boots on the streets, but it remains to be seen how effective these individuals will be in the most violent parts of the City. We have a huge drug trafficking issue, as well as gangs and guns. These criminals do not want anyone affecting their business. We’ve yet to see results from Cure Violence. Some directly involved have alleged mismanagement so I have little confidence in some of these programs (good intentions aside) being implemented and managed in a way to maximize the positive impact.
I have great confidence in Dan Isom as the Interim Public Safety Director, and in fact I hope he chooses to hold this role permanently. We all should. If he agrees to these actions going forward, with him knowing what other steps are to be taken regarding total Public Safety employment (social workers, etc.), then so be it.
The City's hopes are that these new tactics will work. Time will tell. I personally was hoping for all of these formerly FTE positions would have been filled ASAP, to bring the total SLMPD to the max employable limits. While disappointed that this isn't taking place, I am glad to see that no current FTE positions are being reduced. Maybe we won't hire more than we currently employ, but I sure hope we don't start reducing from this point going forward (outside of regular attrition, etc.).
Meanwhile, from my seats in the bleachers, I see this not a de facto "defund the police" action (as no actual monies are being withdrawn) but a de jure "defund the police" for politics' sake, which Mayor Jones' people will say it kind of is when the hardcore progressives push them - while saying it's not to everyone else, especially to the pro-police demographics. I think it's important to recognize these differences, especially when all sides start stating "defund the police" is in play. Lord knows the politics involved in all of this (especially recognizing the SLMPD collective bargaining agreement) is complex and very "inside baseball". Concurrently, I'm wondering what will happen between the POA and the ESOP; to quote the Catherine Wheel, spark are gonna fly.
We'll see how hot things get this summer. Until then, I'm keeping my eyes out for some shade.
^Framer & Dogtown: I don't think this will more negatively impact Neidorff's decision making. He's a big Tishuara donor already. I bet they've talked before.
^ I probably shouldn’t say this but as a Clayton resident I’ve exchanged a few emails with Mayor Harris and I’m wondering if the Centene rumors on this forum have the gravity they appear to.
Also, Dan Isom is a solid choice and gives me more confidence than really any other pick would have.
^Or maybe it means we need deploy a lot more police on patrol than most cities our size would. "Police officers per capita" is about as meaningful a metric as crime per capita in comparisons between the city of St. Louis and just about anywhere else.
I'm somewhat relieved to hear Neidorf is a Jones supporter (Is he, though? Don't corporate types donate to both sides, just to hedge their bets?) Maybe he sees this as a move towards a more "progressive" state of affairs, which would theoretically improve the City's image in the eyes of young tech workers. Let's hope so.
Thanks to everyone for clarifying what is going on here. Also it seems that Chief Hayden was on board with all of this, so that gives me some reassurance.
These are the unused positions that were eliminated and the numbers dont add up- this appears to be mostly a cosmetics change and no real impact to PD budget
Imran: "Large number of police officers per capita and yet not enough police to patrol ? Maybe that means most of the police are in administrative positions."
Urbanitas: "^Or maybe it means we need to deploy a lot more police on patrol than most cities our size would."
Both of these can be true--we might need more beat cops, and maybe some of them could be drawn from the ranks of administrators through reassignment, early retirement buyouts, etc. We can also bolster the current corps of beat cops by redirecting unfilled FTE positions (that have been vacant for years) to other kinds of responders to deal with domestic cases while the traditional cops focus on preventing and solving crimes. These two moves are the only low-hanging fruit on the policing policy tree; everything else would require more money and/or help from the MO General Assembly (2/3rds of whom would be happy to see StL disappear off the map). Good luck with either of those.
I'm not a Jones supporter; she was the only candidate I didn't select in the primary because I'm tired of the "legacy" political families running this town. And while I'm a lefty on most matters, I'm as reactionary as it gets when it comes to crime (bring on the robocops!). But this is a smart move by all involved, and I hope its just the first for her administration and not the last.
^Or maybe it means we need deploy a lot more police on patrol than most cities our size would. "Police officers per capita" is about as meaningful a metric as crime per capita in comparisons between the city of St. Louis and just about anywhere else.
That’s what I was getting at. Restructure to get some of those desk jobbers back out on the beat (if indeed more patrol police are needed)
^Framer: I bet you could look up campaign donors and find a Neidorff contribution to Jones, and Page for that matter. I'm not sure if he also gave to Spencer, but I have heard he likes Jones. Got some good sources here.
^sc4mayor: Good to hear. I sure hope you're right on this. And while it's not a thread-related topic, it's good to read this here.
^SB in BH: Agree with the crime assessment. Concurrently, I'd 100% love it if Paul McKee would rename Northside Regeneration to Delta City. There'd be few things better to reign in the crap drivers than a fleet of ED-209s.
^ I probably shouldn’t say this but as a Clayton resident I’ve exchanged a few emails with Mayor Harris and I’m wondering if the Centene rumors on this forum have the gravity they appear to.
Also, Dan Isom is a solid choice and gives me more confidence than really any other pick would have.
is this to say that the situation is not as grave as the rumors would suggest, or that the gravity is consistent with the rumors?
Does anyone know how police compensation is structured in St. Louis? I know there are issues in other cities where compensation is heavily weighted based on seniority, which creates a problem where more senior officers doing more administrative work have an incentive to stay on rather than retire or change careers given the escalating pay scale, and there is lower pay offered for entry-level policing positions making them less attractive for those considering the career.
^ I probably shouldn’t say this but as a Clayton resident I’ve exchanged a few emails with Mayor Harris and I’m wondering if the Centene rumors on this forum have the gravity they appear to.
Also, Dan Isom is a solid choice and gives me more confidence than really any other pick would have.
is this to say that the situation is not as grave as the rumors would suggest, or that the gravity is consistent with the rumors?
Not as grave. But I’m still not quite willing to trust Centene, tbh.
^ Well, you're both wrong. Reallocating $4 million (out of a $170+ million police budget) and 98 already empty positions while leaving 50 (that they still won't be able to fill LOL) is not "defunding" anything. Plain and simple. This is just a bunch of dumb rhetoric around a relatively small change in the overall structure of the PD and its budget.
Governments move money between departments and divisions all the time and the money being reallocated here will go towards fighting root causes of crime...not parks or transit or something unrelated to crime fighting. Hell, it's a 50/50 shot for 911 to even pick up the phone in this city. I'd rather use some of those empty positions for dispatchers (as one example) so when someone has a medial emergency, or whatever, they might actually get some help in a timely fashion...instead of waiting on hold.
If they were taking $4 million from the police and were giving it to the Parks Department, I might share your indignation. But like the Chief of Police said...this isn't going to take a single officer off the street.
You just can’t seem to understand the fact that most everyone (outside analysts, prognosticators etc) including Hayden (Who changed his position to save his job) said it was crucial to fill those positions very recently as record numbers of children were being shot in the streets. Now because Jones said it’s her position, nobody thinks we need those officers on the streets. As I’ve said, I’ve lived in the city my entire life and I am not at all satisfied with the lack of patrols, response times and lack of overall police presence compared to the past. If you think where we are at today is good, that’s your opinion. I respectfully disagree and feel those positions need to be filled one way or the other, not eliminated. No need to keep beating the dead horse. We disagree. The point of the Cori Bush post was more for laughs than anything.
