^More (robo)cops, please and thank you. I'm less sanguine about the envisioned swarm of drone-cops; that's a little too surveillance-state dystopian for me.
Read that also. Really interesting read. WaPo had another read about rampant violence in Portland that was quite interesting as well.soulardx wrote: ↑Jun 01, 2021Really interesting story about Atlanta and crime.
Amid surge in violent crime, Atlanta’s wealthiest neighborhood ponders new city
https://www.washingtonpost.com/national ... story.html
Basically, the richest area in Atlanta wants to create its own city to keep more of its tax $$ to "prevent" crime. Sounds like the Great Divorce but centuries later. Also, for as bad as crime is in Atlanta, kinda pales in comparison to STL.
Atlantans talking about creating new municipalities and gating specific streets to stop crime has me wondering if some old St. Louisans are running things down there...
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^ rampant for Portland is still only 30-something murders though (YTD).
^ Maybe it’s because my college degrees required multiple statistics classes...but the “murder” stats wasn’t the point...at least for me.
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^ i realize violence encompasses more than murder, but i expect Portland's violent crime rate is still way lower than St. Louis' (maybe that's not true in the short term—i haven't compared recent stats for the 2 cities). i guess your use of the word "rampant" caught my attention, because if Portland is "rampant" then what is St. Louis? for the record, i have a BS in physics & mathematics and a PhD in applied physics, so i've had plenty of exposure to statistics.
^ Here’s the article:
https://www.washingtonpost.com/national ... story.html
Read it yourself. Statistics aside this isn’t the same feeling I get on the ground in St. Louis. But I only live here so obviously I know nothing...
https://www.washingtonpost.com/national ... story.html
Read it yourself. Statistics aside this isn’t the same feeling I get on the ground in St. Louis. But I only live here so obviously I know nothing...
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^ i don't have a subscription but i'll try to find access. maybe it's especially bad in Portland at the moment. c'mon, though. i've lived most of my life in St. Louis. i haven't been there in a year and a half (pandemic) but i'm well aware of what it's like "on the ground." i'm not saying you know nothing, but maybe you have a higher tolerance for crime than i do. i used to have a higher tolerance as well...
ADDENDUM: surprisingly the "stop loading" trick worked. i mean... aside from the weird, small, mostly-white anarchist contingent targeting black businesses, churches, etc. it all sounds pretty familiar. but the article is sparse on statistics. it's mostly anecdotal. sounds like they're seeing historic violence rates... for Portland. 348 shootings and 30-something homicides through April, so about half the number of homicides of St. Louis with more than double the population. not sure but i would guess St. Louis is approaching 1000 shootings. crazy to see that Dutchtown has seen 10 homicides already this year.
ADDENDUM: surprisingly the "stop loading" trick worked. i mean... aside from the weird, small, mostly-white anarchist contingent targeting black businesses, churches, etc. it all sounds pretty familiar. but the article is sparse on statistics. it's mostly anecdotal. sounds like they're seeing historic violence rates... for Portland. 348 shootings and 30-something homicides through April, so about half the number of homicides of St. Louis with more than double the population. not sure but i would guess St. Louis is approaching 1000 shootings. crazy to see that Dutchtown has seen 10 homicides already this year.
^ I’ve also lived most of my life in St. Louis. Mostly in places similar to Buckhead. After living in KC for awhile I’d be willing to say the Plaza may even be a poster child for that, where I spent close to 10 years...and what’s being reported on the ground in places like downtown Portland is quite a bit worse (as described) than what seems to be the experience here in St. Louis or the experience in Kansas City. Never mind that cars were routinely broken into in my gated garage or the occasional hotel shooting or a car getting turned into Swiss cheese on 47th Street with a Legislature approved AR—15. (Maybe you’re right...I do have a higher tolerance for crime, thanks KC).
And let me be clear, this isn’t to minimize crime in this city, it is bad, worst than most.
But today, when I go to downtown St. Louis, I don’t see the boarded windows and anarchists, I DO see pedestrians and liveliness now that the pandemic is starting to ebb. I’m also not seeing anarchists burning sh*t down in STL on a weekly basis like in Portland as that article describes. Who knows, maybe the WaPo is lying. According to two a**holes at OB Clark’s tonight Bezos’ has weaponized the entire paper for a communist takeover anyway...
And let me be clear, this isn’t to minimize crime in this city, it is bad, worst than most.
But today, when I go to downtown St. Louis, I don’t see the boarded windows and anarchists, I DO see pedestrians and liveliness now that the pandemic is starting to ebb. I’m also not seeing anarchists burning sh*t down in STL on a weekly basis like in Portland as that article describes. Who knows, maybe the WaPo is lying. According to two a**holes at OB Clark’s tonight Bezos’ has weaponized the entire paper for a communist takeover anyway...
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^ i think it's just hard to get a realistic picture of the "on-the-ground" conditions of a place based on articles like this. i mean, DT STL is seeing plenty of disturbance these days—mostly throughout the night. and i'm sure there are plenty of Portland neighborhoods from which you would never know these things are happening (as there are in St. Louis).
i don't recall the article saying that anarchists were burning stuff down on a weekly basis but the anarchist stuff certainly is strange. that said, St. Louis doesn't seem to need anarchists to get plenty of stuff burned down.
i don't recall the article saying that anarchists were burning stuff down on a weekly basis but the anarchist stuff certainly is strange. that said, St. Louis doesn't seem to need anarchists to get plenty of stuff burned down.
^ No argument there. What plagues St. Louis and Portland are very different things, both of them bad. I didn’t originally bring it up to compare here to there, just happened to read both articles this morning.
The article about Buckhead actually has some extremely interesting parallels with the St. Louis region...in my opinion.
The article about Buckhead actually has some extremely interesting parallels with the St. Louis region...in my opinion.
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^ i'll read the Atlanta article—it does seem like a reactionary, counterproductive move. i wonder if they looked to Clayton as an example because, yeah, the parallels are pretty strong.
^ Not that the STL area couldn’t provide plenty of good examples but they probably didn’t have to look far. This whole “cityhood” movement in the South (egged on by right wing legislators, of course) has been gaining steam recently. Stockbridge, GA had its wealthiest residents attempt to break off and form their own town in 2018 but were defeated at the polls...barely.
^^"Who knows, maybe the WaPo is lying. According to two a**holes at OB Clark’s tonight Bezos’ has weaponized the entire paper for a communist takeover anyway..."
Definitely the world's (2nd?) most successful capitalist is secretly a communist. It's surely only a matter of time before he turns over ownership and control of his newspaper, AWS, the warehouses, etc. to the workers and gives away his every last dime to everyone else based on their need.
Definitely the world's (2nd?) most successful capitalist is secretly a communist. It's surely only a matter of time before he turns over ownership and control of his newspaper, AWS, the warehouses, etc. to the workers and gives away his every last dime to everyone else based on their need.
Base effects are super important in shaping perception. Nightly gunfire in most inner-city neighborhoods, common in St. Louis, would sound very strange for people living in many (most?) other places yet we just accept it as a fact of life and move on.sc4mayor wrote: ↑Jun 02, 2021And let me be clear, this isn’t to minimize crime in this city, it is bad, worst than most.
But today, when I go to downtown St. Louis, I don’t see the boarded windows and anarchists, I DO see pedestrians and liveliness now that the pandemic is starting to ebb. I’m also not seeing anarchists burning sh*t down in STL on a weekly basis like in Portland as that article describes. Who knows, maybe the WaPo is lying. According to two a**holes at OB Clark’s tonight Bezos’ has weaponized the entire paper for a communist takeover anyway...
"Nightly gunfire in most inner-city neighborhoods, common in St. Louis, would sound very strange for people living in many (most?) other places yet we just accept it as a fact of life and move on."
And what a fun fact it is--My wife and I have grown to enjoy our nightly debate of "Gunshots or fireworks?" and recently "shooting at someone or just for fun?"
And what a fun fact it is--My wife and I have grown to enjoy our nightly debate of "Gunshots or fireworks?" and recently "shooting at someone or just for fun?"
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The fact that many in the city are getting comfortable with nightly gunfire is comforting because it shows that white people are finally shedding privilege. I mean, why should white people continue to be appalled by nightly gunfire when others have been dealing with this decades??
PROGRESS IN THE LOU!!
PROGRESS IN THE LOU!!
^^Hey, I resemble that remark!
Surely once Bezos completes his communist takeover gunfire will finally be shared equitably by all. Onward to glory, comrades!
Surely once Bezos completes his communist takeover gunfire will finally be shared equitably by all. Onward to glory, comrades!
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Defunding the police will only result in the wealthy and affluent areas breaking off or funding private police. Also, ATL and STL are very similar cities albeit ATL bigger at the moment and far more growth.
^"Defunding the police will only result in the wealthy and affluent areas breaking off or funding private police."
Not sure how much more "broke off" the StL MSA can realistically get; we seem to be the poster-child metro for this phenomenon as others have noted above.
Definitely agree on the private police piece. Holly Hills and I'm sure other neighborhoods already pay off-duty officers to do patrols. We also had a volunteer "neighborhood patrol" effort going for a little while, though that collapsed once the person leading it was unable to continue doing so. The purpose was merely to "observe and report" and maybe deter just by presence. But its not hard to see how it could be quickly turned into an armed vigilante gang if/when the situation devolves to the point that the police routinely do not respond to calls from even the affluent addresses. Don't know how close we are to that, but I suspect it's not outside the realm of possibility sooner than later.
Not sure how much more "broke off" the StL MSA can realistically get; we seem to be the poster-child metro for this phenomenon as others have noted above.
Definitely agree on the private police piece. Holly Hills and I'm sure other neighborhoods already pay off-duty officers to do patrols. We also had a volunteer "neighborhood patrol" effort going for a little while, though that collapsed once the person leading it was unable to continue doing so. The purpose was merely to "observe and report" and maybe deter just by presence. But its not hard to see how it could be quickly turned into an armed vigilante gang if/when the situation devolves to the point that the police routinely do not respond to calls from even the affluent addresses. Don't know how close we are to that, but I suspect it's not outside the realm of possibility sooner than later.
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while we debate all this the kids are taking it to the next level
Sheriff says children used AK-47, other guns in shooting rampage on Volusia deputies
12 And 14 yo children shooting at deputies with AK 47
https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2021/06/02/volusia-county-florida-shootout/
Sheriff says children used AK-47, other guns in shooting rampage on Volusia deputies
12 And 14 yo children shooting at deputies with AK 47
https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2021/06/02/volusia-county-florida-shootout/
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Find it amusing how people think cops could defend the public from serious threats if an entire sheriff's office is held up for over 30 minutes by two children with no firearms experience.
It's almost like we're moving backwards to the days of private fire companies, where only those who could afford to pay were assured of quick response.
^We are definitely moving backwards, the pace is accelerating, and you need not look far to find people advocating for private everything, including fire protection. Seems incredibly stupid to me, but I've learned to never underestimate reactionary impulse of the American public.
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so, police are ineffective because "an entire sheriff's office" took 30 minutes to try and find a way to avoid opening fire on two kids rather than having the SWAT team level the place in 30 seconds?Trololzilla wrote: ↑Jun 04, 2021Find it amusing how people think cops could defend the public from serious threats if an entire sheriff's office is held up for over 30 minutes by two children with no firearms experience.
damned if they do; damned if they don't.- 2,929
^^ Yeah, but I don't see this momentum continuing much further, nothing beyond some supplementation of existing services. Increased privatization of public safety is not a readily available option for a stable, profitable return on investment, at least not at any real scale.
I remember a fascinating movie back in the 1980s, wherein a private conglomerate-style corporation (Omni Consumer Products) had initiated multiple private sector acquisitions of certain "less profitable" public services to increase total revenue generation. Where some companies have in recent years privatized prisons, OCP privatized certain military and policing operations. This movie focused on their hypothetical privatization of the Detroit Police Department.
The problem OCP was compelled to face was that their employees in the future Detroit P-D eventually called a strike, which led to a walkout, which led to public bedlam. That's a problem that the real world recognizes, that private sector employees are not necessarily duty-bound to remain employed. Excessive reliance upon private security to do the work of a police department (even off-duty police officers) could be detrimental towards perceptions, and reality, of public safety. This is generally recognized, and I don't readily fear cities privatizing their operations. This is further evidenced when recognizing the different civil legal liabilities at play between public service functions of governments versus those of a private sector corporation, even one providing supplemental operations. It's just too much risk for the private sector to do what the public sector does today. In time, this interest in excessive privatization will wane once the unfeasibility of that idea is more popularly recognized...
On a related note, in this movie, C-Suite executives with OCP did initiate multiple contingency options based on emerging technologies, which was the overriding theme of this movie. Maybe, just maybe, we could be moving towards increased usage of private-sector, technology-based policing options. The recent discussions of private-sector incorporation of surveillance aircraft in Baltimore show that changes such as this are still to be proven in the real world. Maybe we could see private sector drone forces overseeing a city in conjunction with the city's police department? Who knows...
There are, of course, certain innate risks towards new technologies in the public sector. Specifically, OCP's first solution...
![]()
As the movie demonstrates, this is not a good parking enforcement option.
(Also, that satire can be both terrifying and hilarious.)
I remember a fascinating movie back in the 1980s, wherein a private conglomerate-style corporation (Omni Consumer Products) had initiated multiple private sector acquisitions of certain "less profitable" public services to increase total revenue generation. Where some companies have in recent years privatized prisons, OCP privatized certain military and policing operations. This movie focused on their hypothetical privatization of the Detroit Police Department.
The problem OCP was compelled to face was that their employees in the future Detroit P-D eventually called a strike, which led to a walkout, which led to public bedlam. That's a problem that the real world recognizes, that private sector employees are not necessarily duty-bound to remain employed. Excessive reliance upon private security to do the work of a police department (even off-duty police officers) could be detrimental towards perceptions, and reality, of public safety. This is generally recognized, and I don't readily fear cities privatizing their operations. This is further evidenced when recognizing the different civil legal liabilities at play between public service functions of governments versus those of a private sector corporation, even one providing supplemental operations. It's just too much risk for the private sector to do what the public sector does today. In time, this interest in excessive privatization will wane once the unfeasibility of that idea is more popularly recognized...
On a related note, in this movie, C-Suite executives with OCP did initiate multiple contingency options based on emerging technologies, which was the overriding theme of this movie. Maybe, just maybe, we could be moving towards increased usage of private-sector, technology-based policing options. The recent discussions of private-sector incorporation of surveillance aircraft in Baltimore show that changes such as this are still to be proven in the real world. Maybe we could see private sector drone forces overseeing a city in conjunction with the city's police department? Who knows...
There are, of course, certain innate risks towards new technologies in the public sector. Specifically, OCP's first solution...
As the movie demonstrates, this is not a good parking enforcement option.
(Also, that satire can be both terrifying and hilarious.)