Yeah, there's really not too much downside to this. The $50 million that the Rockies are sending (though I've heard that the $50 million value is a combo of money sent and money Arenado will defer) is just enough to stop the contract from being underwater, especially considering the shoulder issues. As stated above, there's very little chance Arenado exercises the 2021 opt-out given the CBA negotiations (and likely player's strike) not to mention future uncertainty with COVID, despite vaccine rollout. There's a chance he exercises the 2022 opt-out, but that's not a negative either as it likely means that Arenado had an absolutely monster year for us and is looking to score one last big contract; we'd also get a comp pick out of it (assuming the new CBA remains similar to how it currently is for players leaving teams). If he doesn't have a monster year but still decent to very good and ends up staying, it's still not a terrible contract now what with the deferrals and money sent. It was super underwater when the Rockies signed it due to the extremely high AAV.
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MLB proposed Friday a 154-game season with full pay (100 percent, like it’s 162 games), delayed by a month. Offer includes expanded playoffs and a DH. Union is deliberating
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Time to go get Nelson Cruz if the DH is in effect. Imagine that lineup.dbInSouthCity wrote:MLB proposed Friday a 154-game season with full pay (100 percent, like it’s 162 games), delayed by a month. Offer includes expanded playoffs and a DH. Union is deliberating
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That offer is going to be rejected. The MLBPA doesn't view DH for extended playoffs as being a fair swap (they realize that the days of old veterans being paid big money to act as a full time DH are fading away - so it doesn't really help them out much. Owners are the ones who have been trying to create this narrative of DH for extended playoffs because it's a win / win in their books). Not to mention that this proposal gives Manfred a ton more authority to unilaterally stop the season.
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Manfred already does, though, according to the current CBA, Paragraph 11:Laife Fulk wrote: ↑Jan 31, 2021Not to mention that this proposal gives Manfred a ton more authority to unilaterally stop the season.
The country is still in a state of emergency, as are all 50 states and all US territories (including D.C.), so the Commissioner's Office can suspend play as needed.This contract is subject to federal or state legislation, regulations, executive or other official orders or other governmental action, now or hereafter in effect respecting military, naval, air or other governmental service, which may directly or indirectly affect the Player, Club or League and subject also to the right of the Commissioner to suspend the operation of this contract during any national emergency during which Major League Baseball is not played.
The MLBPA has got to be the dumbest, worst run union on the planet. There is absolutely no reason not to accept the deal - they're just not going to get a better one. They're going to get absolutely slaughtered in the next CBA discussions because they'll have no ground to stand on, and I'm betting there's going to be another baseball work stoppage in 2022. If I were a player, I'd be furious and demanding Tony Clark's *figurative* head.
MLBPA: fewer teams in competition (i.e. tanking) reduces salaries
Also MLBPA: more teams in competition (i.e., expanded playoffs) reduces salaries.
MLBPA, probably: literally anything the owners propose will reduce salaries, so we will agree to nothing. Ever.
MLBPA, always: the owners are being greedy and unreasonable.
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100% totally disagree with your assessment of the MLBPA. Expanding playoffs and increasing the number of teams who get in incentivizes teams to not worry about winning their division. Why spend to hopefully get to 95 wins if 86 will get you the same result of being in the playoffs? And theres some major financial ramifications from expanded playoffs that need to be hammered out - the owners want the players to accept a flat rate and the players want a % of the increased television revenue. That's why they aren't going to just accept the DH for expanded playoffs in return.
And literally anything the owners propose right now is being done with the intention of gaining leverage for the next CBA negotiation. Your last two points are correct - but not in the way I think you intended them to be. The players are not some greedy, evil villains who are out to ruin baseball. I expect there to be a work stoppage no matter what because the owners aren't going to proactively meet the players in the middle and play nice.
And literally anything the owners propose right now is being done with the intention of gaining leverage for the next CBA negotiation. Your last two points are correct - but not in the way I think you intended them to be. The players are not some greedy, evil villains who are out to ruin baseball. I expect there to be a work stoppage no matter what because the owners aren't going to proactively meet the players in the middle and play nice.
To which the NFLPA says, "Hold my beer."Trololzilla wrote: ↑Feb 01, 2021The MLBPA has got to be the dumbest, worst run union on the planet.
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I'll quote some comments from Viva el Birdos here, since this particular user has the same train of thoughts as me and explains it far better than I could:
Trust me, I'm extremely pro-union in general and for the players getting their fair share from billionaire owners, but the PA has really backed itself into a corner here and they're not gonna have much, if any, leverage in future negotiations with the owners/MLB.I keep saying, and I guess I'll have to keep doing so over and over:
it is not the players who want revenue sharing, and the players’ share of revenue has not fallen over time according to the MLBPA’s own economists (spoken on the record to journalists). The MLBPA is absolutely fine with the revenue model. They are fine with MiLB players getting screwed. They are fine with limits to international free agency. They are fine with the amateur draft and slotted bonuses. All of those things funnel more money to MLB players (at the expense of non-MLB players and owners).
What they want is something that no professional athlete in the world has: fully-guaranteed long-term contracts, no matter what, with an effective salary floor but no cap, with clubs paying all expenses to stage the sport and develop the players, and salaries that rise 10% per year across the board. They’re not going to get all of those things, because no one does. But they refuse to bargain on any of them. So the owners cut where they can — FAs — as they not only allowed to do but actively incentivized by the CBA to do.
Somehow the CBA is sacred when the players want it to be, but not when they don’t. Convenient.
It also pulls up arb salaries, which are calculated relative to the MLB mean (not median)
I’m not even sure the "middle class" gets paid less now than before. Who are we talking about? Old players get paid less, because they don’t take steroids anymore so they stop being productive players earlier. And as a direct consequence of that, young players get paid a LOT more, both because of earlier extensions upping salaries in the early years, but also allowing many of them to get to FA at younger ages because they are getting called up sooner to replace the no-longer-productive vets (seriously: there have been way more 26-27 year old free agents in recent years than I can ever recall before). Everyone else probably gets paid more once adjusted for inflation.
There’s this weird dynamic where nobody wants their team to be paying Dexter Fowler $18mn as a 34 year old, but they also want the "middle class" to keep getting paid. I don’t really see how that’s supposed to work. The Dexter Fowlers of the world are the middle class.
"Why are people acting like the CBA doesn’t exist"
Because the country is still in a state of emergency, as are all 50 states and all US territories (inc DC). There is an effective travel ban into and out of Canada, and highly-restricted travel into the US as well. The CBA gives the owners rights under such circumstances… not just the players. Specifically, the owners can suspend the season at any time under a state of emergency, and under the CBA the players salaries are tied to games being played. So:
"The union doesn’t have to agree to anything to get their full season salaries"
isn’t true, and never has been true, which is why they kept negotiating last year. They need to convince the owners to play a full season, not the other way around. Which is why the MLBPA keeps emphasizing "full season", both in their negotiations and in the media: that’s a bargaining position, not a statement of rights. If that was their right they wouldn’t bother asserting it so often. Just as a reminder, here is Paragraph 11 of the Uniform Player Contract under the current CBA:But even if it was true, the league could just not reschedule games postponed due to Covid (inc by local restrictions, so bye-bye to the entire Blue Jays season), and restrict salaries pro rata when that happens. Which it will. Probably a lot, especially if the season starts on time.This contract is subject to federal or state legislation, regulations, executive or other official orders or other governmental action, now or hereafter in effect respecting military, naval, air or other governmental service, which may directly or indirectly affect the Player, Club or League and subject also to the right of the Commissioner to suspend the operation of this contract during any national emergency during which Major League Baseball is not played.
So the likelihood of getting a full season’s salary without some kind of concession from the players is basically zero. A slightly expanded playoff — realistically, we’re talking about a maximum of 22 extra games (total) across MLB, for which the players will also get a significant percentage of the revenue, with the owners offering to pay full salaries for 240 games from the regular schedule that now won’t be played — is the most minimal concession the owners can ask for. It isn’t even really a concession.
But if the players want to keep trying to make the owners as poor as they can I guess that’s their choice. I’ll just laugh at them when there’s a work stoppage and then a long period of declining payrolls after that happens, because it’s all so predictable. Until the MLBPA starts bargaining like partners instead of like adversaries they’re never going to get an improved situation. Every American union makes this mistake eventually, and it always makes them much weaker after it occurs.
But also, they don't want that
They want younger players to be put onto MLB rosters sooner, and they want older players to keep getting paid for longer.
If a young player isn’t graduated to the bigs at the first sign of good performance in the upper-minors then it’s "manipulation". If an old player isn’t signed to a multiyear deal then it’s "collusion". But one of them takes a roster spot away from the other one.
I honestly don’t think the MLBPA even knows what it wants. It has so many conflicting interests within its own coalition that I think they’re trying to deflect blame towards the owners for their own inability to reach consensus. That’s always a bad position to be in during a negotiation.
Yes, but marginal improvements will matter more
Right now, it doesn’t matter if you’re an 84 win team, or any total below that number. With expanded playoffs getting to 84 wins is a big deal. So teams who project from 78-84 wins (which is almost all of them) will have an incentive to add wins on the margin, thus boosting the salaries of mid-level vets and reducing tanking. More 80ish win teams and fewer 62 win teams seems like its good for the fans and the players.
Moreover, with more playoff rounds marginal advantages will more matter in terms of changed World Series odds (small percentages cumulate), so even teams that project to win 95 games will have an incentive to keep adding.
Additionally, fewer teams will have very long playoff droughts, which will help nearly all franchises maintain fan interest in perpetuity.
Lastly, winning your division will still matter, since the division-winners are the top seeds in the first round, and thus get to play every game at home. A top-seed losing in the first round will be pretty rare, as it is in other sports; a mediocre division winner losing sometimes will keep the sport spicy.
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There's a lot to unpack there, and I have no clue who posted this at VEB (there's a few of us former VEB-ers floating around these parts). So I'll keep my responses brief (well, as much as possible. This could probably be a 10+ page response).
Somehow the CBA is sacred when the players want it to be, but not when they don’t. Convenient. - Goes both ways. Owners do the exact same thing. This entire paragraph just reads like the author wants to paint the MLBPA as the bad guys.
It also pulls up arb salaries, which are calculated relative to the MLB mean (not median) - Does it though? There's zero stats included for us to look at with this argument so I'll just toss out a few items that complicate this hypothesis. Time clock manipulation is a huge issue (see Bryant, Kris). Players like Ozzie Albies are signing early extensions that are still below market value. Just look at this last offseason where teams cut Kolten Wong, Brad Hand, and a slew of valuable players (some in arbitration and some with team options) because owners wanted to try and save just a few million. While arbitration may have seen an average increase in salaries, how much of this is tied to 1) inflation and 2) players experiencing time clock manipulation forcing them to become Super Two eligible and that extra year skewing the data?
Just as a reminder, here is Paragraph 11 of the Uniform Player Contract under the current CBA: - You posted a some of this previously, but the issue with this logic is that every other sport has figured out ways to not only play regular season games, but some facilities are letting fans back into the stand. Manfred may say that there's a pandemic, but the players can point to the NBA, NHL, NFL, etc as proof that professional sports can happen even in the age of COVID-19. Agreeing to let the season be delayed opens up the owners and/or Manfred to push for a second delay. There's a line in this paragraph that's really telling to me: "But if the players want to keep trying to make the owners as poor as they can I guess that’s their choice. I’ll just laugh at them when there’s a work stoppage and then a long period of declining payrolls after that happens, because it’s all so predictable." We're already seeing declining payrolls, and the players are trying to avoid losing leverage before the CBA negotiations. There's probably going to be a work stoppage regardless, but why is it up to the players to be the only ones conceding? Again, this just reads like the author wants to paint the MLBPA as the bad guys.
But also, they don't want that - This entire paragraph is a wide brush stroke, and every situation is extremely nuanced. The Cubs literally manipulated Kris Bryant's playing time down to the day to get an extra year of team control out of him. The Astros basically told Jon Singleton that unless he signed a 5 year, $10M deal they were going to keep him in the minors for longer. (Yes, he turned out to not be an All-Star, but at the time he was a top prospect). Acuna, Harper, Longoria, and Springer all experienced service time manipulation. As for collusion, no it's not collusion when an aging vet doesn't get paid. There's a strawman argument being made here. I don't think anyone is upset because a 35 year old Dexter Fowler won't make $20M. But collusion is an issue. Just a few years ago the Braves (now former) GM said publicly that “Every day you get more information. And we’ve had time to connect with 27 of the clubs ... we had a chance to get a sense of what the other clubs are going to look to do in free agency, who might be available in trades.” Alex Anthopoulos eventually tried to back track and issued a statement, but it's still an insight as to how much teams do talk to each other about this stuff. Even with massive contracts paid out to superstars, the average MLB salary is decreasing. In 2019 the average of the league’s top 125 salaries dropped from $17.9 million to $17.8 million. May not seem like much, but this includes the massive contracts paid to Trout, Harper, Machado, etc. which means that teams are paying more at the top end but paying way less at the bottom end of their rosters. I.e., relying on minimum wage guys for as long as possible before moving onto the next young minimum wage guy.
Yes, but marginal improvements will matter more - Must be why teams cut players like Kolten Wong, Brad Hand, etc. and power bat DH's like Cruz, Encarnacion, and Ozuna are still free agents. We know that teams are looking to cut payroll and roll the dice in hopes that they can sneak into the playoffs. I don't think the author made any great points here to prove his position.
Somehow the CBA is sacred when the players want it to be, but not when they don’t. Convenient. - Goes both ways. Owners do the exact same thing. This entire paragraph just reads like the author wants to paint the MLBPA as the bad guys.
It also pulls up arb salaries, which are calculated relative to the MLB mean (not median) - Does it though? There's zero stats included for us to look at with this argument so I'll just toss out a few items that complicate this hypothesis. Time clock manipulation is a huge issue (see Bryant, Kris). Players like Ozzie Albies are signing early extensions that are still below market value. Just look at this last offseason where teams cut Kolten Wong, Brad Hand, and a slew of valuable players (some in arbitration and some with team options) because owners wanted to try and save just a few million. While arbitration may have seen an average increase in salaries, how much of this is tied to 1) inflation and 2) players experiencing time clock manipulation forcing them to become Super Two eligible and that extra year skewing the data?
Just as a reminder, here is Paragraph 11 of the Uniform Player Contract under the current CBA: - You posted a some of this previously, but the issue with this logic is that every other sport has figured out ways to not only play regular season games, but some facilities are letting fans back into the stand. Manfred may say that there's a pandemic, but the players can point to the NBA, NHL, NFL, etc as proof that professional sports can happen even in the age of COVID-19. Agreeing to let the season be delayed opens up the owners and/or Manfred to push for a second delay. There's a line in this paragraph that's really telling to me: "But if the players want to keep trying to make the owners as poor as they can I guess that’s their choice. I’ll just laugh at them when there’s a work stoppage and then a long period of declining payrolls after that happens, because it’s all so predictable." We're already seeing declining payrolls, and the players are trying to avoid losing leverage before the CBA negotiations. There's probably going to be a work stoppage regardless, but why is it up to the players to be the only ones conceding? Again, this just reads like the author wants to paint the MLBPA as the bad guys.
But also, they don't want that - This entire paragraph is a wide brush stroke, and every situation is extremely nuanced. The Cubs literally manipulated Kris Bryant's playing time down to the day to get an extra year of team control out of him. The Astros basically told Jon Singleton that unless he signed a 5 year, $10M deal they were going to keep him in the minors for longer. (Yes, he turned out to not be an All-Star, but at the time he was a top prospect). Acuna, Harper, Longoria, and Springer all experienced service time manipulation. As for collusion, no it's not collusion when an aging vet doesn't get paid. There's a strawman argument being made here. I don't think anyone is upset because a 35 year old Dexter Fowler won't make $20M. But collusion is an issue. Just a few years ago the Braves (now former) GM said publicly that “Every day you get more information. And we’ve had time to connect with 27 of the clubs ... we had a chance to get a sense of what the other clubs are going to look to do in free agency, who might be available in trades.” Alex Anthopoulos eventually tried to back track and issued a statement, but it's still an insight as to how much teams do talk to each other about this stuff. Even with massive contracts paid out to superstars, the average MLB salary is decreasing. In 2019 the average of the league’s top 125 salaries dropped from $17.9 million to $17.8 million. May not seem like much, but this includes the massive contracts paid to Trout, Harper, Machado, etc. which means that teams are paying more at the top end but paying way less at the bottom end of their rosters. I.e., relying on minimum wage guys for as long as possible before moving onto the next young minimum wage guy.
Yes, but marginal improvements will matter more - Must be why teams cut players like Kolten Wong, Brad Hand, etc. and power bat DH's like Cruz, Encarnacion, and Ozuna are still free agents. We know that teams are looking to cut payroll and roll the dice in hopes that they can sneak into the playoffs. I don't think the author made any great points here to prove his position.
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With the Nolan Arenado acquisition now official, I'm wondering if Nolan Gorman becomes a potential trade chip in July '21 for a starting pitcher that will help put the rotation over the top.
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I hope not. He could very easily move to the outfield and be a huge power bat as early as 2022.
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I agree. I just think the Cardinal will need to add another starting pitcher at some point in 2021 if they are serious about competing for a World Series championship.
Then again, who thought they would win the World Series in 2006 with Anthony Reyes, Jeff Suppan, and Jeff Weaver getting starts.
Then again, who thought they would win the World Series in 2006 with Anthony Reyes, Jeff Suppan, and Jeff Weaver getting starts.
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That's what Liberatore and/or Zach Thompson should help with. The pitching is still going to be a strength for the team - Flaherty, Wainwright, Kim, Mikolas are an above average top four. And there's a lot of good, talented depth with Ponce De Leon, Jake Woodford, Alex Reyes, Johan Oviedo, and even Carlos Martinez to mix and match for the 5th spot. Add in the best defensive starting 9 the team has had in decades, and that's a good combination.
Not exactly a great thread for this to go under, so the Cardinals thread felt best. Springfield, MO is starting to feel some pressure to upgrade Hammons Field. If no deal is made, and the league decides to relocate the team, I'd say that a new stadium in Chesterfield or St. Charles wouldn't be the worst idea. Would be an interesting addition to the future Chesterfield Mall plans OR could go next to the Maryville Hockey Center or Top Golf.
https://www.news-leader.com/story/sport ... 879097002/
https://www.news-leader.com/story/sport ... 879097002/
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It would be a real shame if Springfield, MO lost the AA Cardinals over not paying $10 million in renovations.
I can’t image the Cardinals would want any crowding in the STL market, even if it were their own AA team.
Where else would they go and keep near the other central region teams?
New Orleans is noticeably absent of AA or AAA. Could keep to the theme of Mississippi adjacent Cardinal affiliates. Also, The St. Louis-New Orleans Stars were part of the Negro American League in 1940 and 1941.
Where else would they go and keep near the other central region teams?
New Orleans is noticeably absent of AA or AAA. Could keep to the theme of Mississippi adjacent Cardinal affiliates. Also, The St. Louis-New Orleans Stars were part of the Negro American League in 1940 and 1941.
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Too far, I think. I would bet if they do leave Springfield, MO, they'll try to stay in the Midwest and hopefully get some competition going from places like Springfield, IL, Bloomington/Normal, Champaign, etc.
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Yeah, I doubt the Cardinals would be too keen on having another MLB-affiliated pro team in the metropolitan area.
I think having the AA team in Springfield works really well for the Cardinals, and I sincerely hope that city can keep its team.
$10 million sounds like an amount Springfield, MO should be able to find.
I think having the AA team in Springfield works really well for the Cardinals, and I sincerely hope that city can keep its team.
$10 million sounds like an amount Springfield, MO should be able to find.
I wonder if Columbia, MO could be an option, too.Laife Fulk wrote: ↑Jul 23, 2021Too far, I think. I would bet if they do leave Springfield, MO, they'll try to stay in the Midwest and hopefully get some competition going from places like Springfield, IL, Bloomington/Normal, Champaign, etc.
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Probably would be. I don't think market size is as big of an issue as what city/county would pony up the most for a shiny, brand new, top-tier stadium.
With all due respect…no. Just no. No public money needs to be spent by any government in this area to lure a AA ball club that’s already in Missouri. There’s money in Springfield, more than people think. Find a private partner down there and leave them there.Laife Fulk wrote: ↑Jul 23, 2021I don't think market size is as big of an issue as what city/county would pony up the most for a shiny, brand new, top-tier stadium.
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Yeah, without question, Springfield has more than enough in resources to get an estimated $10 million in renovations taken care of by 2025...
I have a hard time believing that Springfield, MO, a region of nearly 500,000 people, would let the AA Cardinals leave.
I have a hard time believing that Springfield, MO, a region of nearly 500,000 people, would let the AA Cardinals leave.
I don't know if he's a baseball fan, but I'd think Johnny Morris could donate enough and sponsor the stadium personally or for naming rights, or just buy the stadium outright, with whatever spare change he's got lying around...KansasCitian wrote: ↑Jul 23, 2021Yeah, without question, Springfield has more than enough in resources to get an estimated $10 million in renovations taken care of by 2025...
I have a hard time believing that Springfield, MO, a region of nearly 500,000 people, would let the AA Cardinals leave.
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No chance Hammons is coming off the stadium name, the guy paid for the entire thing. John Q. Hammons Industries still owns the stadium unless it got deeded over to Springfield after he died
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They could do something like 'Hammons Field at Bass Pro Park,' which is funky, but it fits minor league baseball.
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