^ Yeah if there are any members here that won't stop believing in this city, it's you and your bro haha.
I'm no expert...but I do work in this industry. Cincy will be Amazon's central cargo hub...but Amazon flies into 35 other US cities currently and as e-commerce continues to explode I don't think it's out of the realm of possibility we'll see large facilities pop up at some of those other airports (whether they be Amazon or someone else...Amazon started in Cincy at a DHL facility). No, they won't be at the center, but that's OK. Memphis is by far and away the largest US air cargo hub...it's not even a contest...and they're an hour closer to STL. Yet I'd hardly say Memphis is eating our lunch.
sc4mayor wrote:^ Yeah if there are any members here that won't stop believing in this city, it's you and your bro haha.
I'm no expert...but I do work in this industry. Cincy will be Amazon's central cargo hub...but Amazon flies into 35 other US cities currently and as e-commerce continues to explode I don't think it's out of the realm of possibility we'll see large facilities pop up at some of those other airports (whether they be Amazon or someone else...Amazon started in Cincy at a DHL facility). No, they won't be at the center, but that's OK. Memphis is by far and away the largest US air cargo hub...it's not even a contest...and they're an hour closer to STL. Yet I'd hardly say Memphis is eating our lunch.
Nashville grabbed Amazon’s operations and logistics office. That’s the side of the business I think KC and STL need to attract.
Cincinnati had cheap land and large existing facilities in the area that attracted Amazon (per a discussion I had on the topic earlier this week with air cargo people).
What is St. Louis doing wrong that Cincinnati is doing right in terms of attracting all these cargo operations? St. Louis is bigger, more centrally-located and better connected via rail and interstates than Cincy, yet CVG is pouncing Lambert as a cargo hub. And it’s hardly just Amazon that has chosen Cincinnati- as a business owner who orders stock apparel on a daily basis, I can tell you first hand that the majority of our vendors have major warehouse facilities in Cincinnati. St. Louis, in the center of the country, does not. WHY? To me, this seems like a low-hanging fruit and STL seems to be asleep at the wheel. Really discouraging that we seem to be completely passed over amidst a burgeoning, rapidly-expanding cargo industry.
I would honestly guess a lot of it is timing. The three biggest domestic cargo hubs; Memphis, Louisville, and Cincinnati; were probably also the three most centrally located large airports that weren't mega-hubs in the 80s. I think Cincinnati's operation is the newest and it dates back to 1984. Lambert didn't have a lot of space to spare for that kind of thing then, between TWA and McDonnel Douglas. The space the airport keeps offering up for cargo was busily churning out fighters until the late 90s, I believe. (They donated their plant switcher to MoT in 2001.) I don't think any of us would have guessed then what a ghost of itself that plant would become as Lockheed ate St. Louis's lunch. (The idea that Lockheed would become the aviation powerhouse they are today might have seemed pretty laughable in the 80s. They were pretty far on the ropes back then, as the L-1011 program died and military contracts were few and specialized. Worth keeping their turnaround in mind, actually, even if one isn't a fan of their current offerings.)
Anyway, I'd guess that's most of it. DHL spun off their US operation to Atlas Air Holdings in the 00s, I think it was. Amazon and DHL both use Atlas airlines, most prominently Southern Air, I think. The subsidies probably also made a difference, but the presence of large charter freight carriers in Cincinnati with whom Amazon had already begun to establish a relationship probably helped. It might well be they were mostly using the Missouri bid to extract better subsidies out of Kentucky. (Lambert did bid on the thing. And the state put together a fairly extensive subsidy package. I want to say Lambert and Cincinnati were the two finalists.) And the comparative ease of building out the operation there might have been more important than the modest geographic advantage. I wonder what the percentages are on domestic vs. international on cargo flights anyway. If the percentage of international is large enough (and it certainly isn't small) then St. Louis might not be all that well positioned anyway. We're not particularly close to any foreign ports, and every extra pound of fuel you have to carry is a pound of cargo you can't.
All that said, I wouldn't count us out yet. Airlines do move if there's a reason to do it. Hubs aren't sacred. Manufacturing patterns change and transportation needs shift with them. And our geography isn't going away. But if I were a cargo airline I'd probably look at Mid America before Lambert. Even now. It has similar runway capacity, rail access, highway access, and a whole lot more cornfields to chose from. Probably a much cheaper place to build, so long as the landing fees are similar to less.
What is St. Louis doing wrong that Cincinnati is doing right in terms of attracting all these cargo operations? St. Louis is bigger, more centrally-located and better connected via rail and interstates than Cincy, yet CVG is pouncing Lambert as a cargo hub. And it’s hardly just Amazon that has chosen Cincinnati- as a business owner who orders stock apparel on a daily basis, I can tell you first hand that the majority of our vendors have major warehouse facilities in Cincinnati. St. Louis, in the center of the country, does not. WHY? To me, this seems like a low-hanging fruit and STL seems to be asleep at the wheel. Really discouraging that we seem to be completely passed over amidst a burgeoning, rapidly-expanding cargo industry.
I would honestly guess a lot of it is timing. The three biggest domestic cargo hubs; Memphis, Louisville, and Cincinnati; were probably also the three most centrally located large airports that weren't mega-hubs in the 80s. I think Cincinnati's operation is the newest and it dates back to 1984. Lambert didn't have a lot of space to spare for that kind of thing then, between TWA and McDonnel Douglas. The space the airport keeps offering up for cargo was busily churning out fighters until the late 90s, I believe. (They donated their plant switcher to MoT in 2001.) I don't think any of us would have guessed then what a ghost of itself that plant would become as Lockheed ate St. Louis's lunch. (The idea that Lockheed would become the aviation powerhouse they are today might have seemed pretty laughable in the 80s. They were pretty far on the ropes back then, as the L-1011 program died and military contracts were few and specialized. Worth keeping their turnaround in mind, actually, even if one isn't a fan of their current offerings.)
Anyway, I'd guess that's most of it. DHL spun off their US operation to Atlas Air Holdings in the 00s, I think it was. Amazon and DHL both use Atlas airlines, most prominently Southern Air, I think. The subsidies probably also made a difference, but the presence of large charter freight carriers in Cincinnati with whom Amazon had already begun to establish a relationship probably helped. It might well be they were mostly using the Missouri bid to extract better subsidies out of Kentucky. (Lambert did bid on the thing. And the state put together a fairly extensive subsidy package. I want to say Lambert and Cincinnati were the two finalists.) And the comparative ease of building out the operation there might have been more important than the modest geographic advantage. I wonder what the percentages are on domestic vs. international on cargo flights anyway. If the percentage of international is large enough (and it certainly isn't small) then St. Louis might not be all that well positioned anyway. We're not particularly close to any foreign ports, and every extra pound of fuel you have to carry is a pound of cargo you can't.
All that said, I wouldn't count us out yet. Airlines do move if there's a reason to do it. Hubs aren't sacred. Manufacturing patterns change and transportation needs shift with them. And our geography isn't going away. But if I were a cargo airline I'd probably look at Mid America before Lambert. Even now. It has similar runway capacity, rail access, highway access, and a whole lot more cornfields to chose from. Probably a much cheaper place to build, so long as the landing fees are similar to less.
Is it documented Lambert bid or you just happen to know?
I also agree with the mid America comments. Tons of open land and their new airport director seems motivated to expand offerings and market it. Not to say there isn’t land around Lambert but you could build out about anything you wanted at midamerica with no constraints.
^Well, I thought we talked about it here and I thought it was in the paper, but I'm not finding it. Maybe I'm wrong about that. You're far in the know about Lambert than I, so if you don't know about it it didn't happen. Ignore me. I would have guessed we'd be a long shot against Cincinnati anyway for the reasons already described. If we didn't bid on it, though, we really should have. Maybe I'm just thinking of all the silly Amazon HQ bidding and mixing things up.
Well, there was that deal that fell through with that sketchy dude with the Greek name from Texas, so it's not like they haven't tried. Not very hard, mind you.
I still think the Northern Tract is ripe for cargo redevelopment though, especially since they put a good chunk of money into the taxiways leading into it. No to mention that there's still several Freightway projects in and around the airport that should help. I wonder when (or if) the airport will release another 5-Year Plan for the 2021-2025 timeframe?
I'm assuming that the U.S. Mexico Dual Customs center and the cold storage facility plans fell through as well?
I guess I am late for this discussion, but I'd like to emphasize two points that other people have already mentioned once or twice:
1. Naturally more economic activity is nice, but being a cargo hub is not a silver bullet as Memphis clearly demonstrates (and Louisville to a certain extent -- things are going well there but for reasons that are probably orthogonal to UPS).
2. If a company from out of town wants to acquire or merge with a St. Louis based company, there is very little that the City or State government can do to prevent that in a free market economy.
As I recall, Bob Clark said on Donnybrook that our presentation for the Amazon facility was completely inept; in fact, the mayor wasn't even made aware of it.
Well, there was that deal that fell through with that sketchy dude with the Greek name from Texas, so it's not like they haven't tried. Not very hard, mind you.
I still think the Northern Tract is ripe for cargo redevelopment though, especially since they put a good chunk of money into the taxiways leading into it. No to mention that there's still several Freightway projects in and around the airport that should help. I wonder when (or if) the airport will release another 5-Year Plan for the 2021-2025 timeframe?
I'm assuming that the U.S. Mexico Dual Customs center and the cold storage facility plans fell through as well?
Great points, the dude for Texas sounded promising but it probably put Lambert cargo freight development behind another two or three years entertaining his proposal for the old MD site.
As far as Northern Tract, I think the best thing you can do with the old MD facility is what Ford/private sector did with the old Ford plant years ago. Its times for Lambert/city to pony up the cash and demo. Clean slate. As Trololzilla noted, Lambert has done a fairly good job of securing grants and rebuilding its taxiways, airline access but it won't mean much if developer and or cargo industry goes somewhere else Quit dithering and tear down old MD facilty IMO; whether everyone agree with it or not as corporate giveaway but at end of day give what developers and industry wants, a clean slate. Otherwise, Lambert will miss out on some opportunity while MidAmerican will excel
I understood that the US Mexico Dual customs was completely separate. But not sure if it has become entangled in domestic politics or if anyone has better insight?
^Well, I thought we talked about it here and I thought it was in the paper, but I'm not finding it. Maybe I'm wrong about that. You're far in the know about Lambert than I, so if you don't know about it it didn't happen. Ignore me. I would have guessed we'd be a long shot against Cincinnati anyway for the reasons already described. If we didn't bid on it, though, we really should have. Maybe I'm just thinking of all the silly Amazon HQ bidding and mixing things up.
There may have been something on it. I just never remember hearing we were anywhere close to being in the running (or if we even bid on it). So I thought maybe you had knowledge of it. . Oh well.
I’ve written here before about efforts I’ve made towards helping to establish heavy air cargo operations at Lambert Airport, from 2013 through 2016. This would have been a new dedicated cargo airline as well as a new MRO and on-site conversions of veteran 767 passenger aircraft into dedicated cargo aircraft. Sadly, our efforts went under after my business partner, an industry veteran who was primary in our efforts, had a debilitating stroke. After he went down, our chief investors lost confidence in our work without his participation. That was the end of that. I subsequently refocused my professional efforts back to my investment management firm and away from air cargo. I read that NY Times article the other day with a lot of lament, regret, and honestly anger at the lost opportunities.
Very much, STL can compete for air cargo operations.
· Lambert has significant excess capacities for aeronautical operations.
· We have long runways that can utilize fully laden widebody freighters like 747s.
· STL has a lot of developable land adjacent to the airport onto which the apron can be expanded and both warehouses & hangars can be constructed.
· We are in a prime location geographically.
o We are in the center of the country, just like Memphis (FedEx), Louisville (UPS), and Cincinnati (Amazon Prime Air).
o The region’s 500 mile catchment area is hard to beat.
· STL has a whole runway that is barely utilized and can effectively be dedicated to a cargo carrier.
· Our operating costs for carriers are going down as STL’s finances are in better order, including reduced debts from the airport's runway expansion that have been paid down and refinanced.
Despite all this, Cincinnati has the Amazon Prime Air hub.
Cincinnati (CVG) was comparable to STL for many reasons to attract Amazon. Both are large airports that have suffered the consequences of passenger carrier de-hubbing (TWA for STL, Delta for CVG). Both have strong catchment areas near the geographic center of the country. Also, CVG already had cargo operations going for DHL and had proven themselves capable of operating significant freighter flights.
A significant advantage CVG had towards landing Amazon Prime Air is that it is located in Kentucky. It’s on the far side of Cincinnati’s I-275, definitely in their exurbs with lots of developable land nearby. Amazon already had centralized warehousing operations in Lexington. The subsidies offered to Amazon were also quite considerable, a real difference maker. Then, there’s the political angle, as Kentucky is home base to Senate Majority Leader Mitch McConnell, whose wife, Elaine Chao, was until this last week the US Secretary of Transportation. This is not the only factor but cannot be understated as being significant.
I have also heard that STL’s pitch to Amazon Prime Air was, to take it kindly, less than impressive; off the record, I heard it was very poorly received by Amazon, with some thinking it was a waste of their time. I do know that certain key Missouri business industry leaders who needed to be at the table were not even aware that a proposal for STL had even been made to Amazon until after their announcement that they had chosen CVG. I don’t want to say who it was, but I was the one who told one of these major MO economic development leaders on a phone call that this had happened, and he was so upset that he cursed out loud on our call. It’s a failure of leadership. Whoever pitched STL apparently screwed up big time.
Note: I just read Framer’s post on Bob Clark’s take on it being “completely inept”. I heard the same. For the record, the person whom I am referring above is not the Mayor. But, her apparently being left out of the conversation as well shows that it was even worse than I had first heard. Holy crap y’all, they screwed the pooch huge here.
Related: Greater St. Louis, Inc. is the newly announced economic development organization that combines Alliance STL; Arch to Park; Civic Progress; Downtown STL, Inc.; and the St. Louis Regional Chamber (RCGA) under one centralized organization. I believe that, if Greater St. Louis, Inc. had been around to pitch STL to Amazon, we would have stood a much greater chance at winning. Our Balkanized regional leadership has been absolutely to our detriment.
Concurrently, the work of the St. Louis Regional Freightway is an excellent organization in whom I have great confidence. Increased warehousing and multimodal transportation infrastructure growth in the region can only further the attractiveness of STL for air cargo operations to prospective carriers.
I have also written in this thread that air cargo is significantly furthered by passenger carriers that carry cargo in the bellies of their aircraft. It’s also very profitable to passenger carriers to have belly loads of cargo deliveries. Indeed, air cargo can be the tail that wags the dog where it comes to furthering passenger air services at STL: the more cargo we have that can be carried in passenger carrier bellies, the more attractive STL is to passenger airlines.
Going forward, I believe STL can be strongly positioned to secure increased air cargo operations and secure a carrier – IF AND ONLY IF we can put together the right pitch to a prospective freight operator. We need a new pitch for cargo operations ready to go at a moment’s notice, and we need to be actively pitching this to any and all carriers immediately. Free land, reduced aeronautical costs, proximate warehousing areas, delineated subsidies, offers to expand the apron ourselves; whatever it takes. I’m sick of everyone else getting our opportunities.
How is a pitch of that magnitude even get put out without leaders knowing about it? Was it some guy who had some free time writing an email to the Amazon help desk?
If you are going to pitch a hub that has to do with a city asset how would the airport be involved and area leaders not know about it?
Side note. I do have a lot of faith in the Greater STL based on who is involved.
Here's the Bob Clark episode of Donnybrook (he's on the second half, starting around the 30 minute mark). He's got lots of very interesting things to say about our disfunctional region.
STL apparently is on the shortlist for JetBlue now that they are working with AA.
Laurence also suggested that the NEA would allow the pair to “work together to have additional relevance in some of the more business-oriented markets in the Midwest, for example, that we have not been able to break into historically.” While he did not name specific cities in the earnings call an internal memo to crewmembers suggests that San Antonio, Kansas City, St. Louis, and Milwaukee are among the markets on the shortlist for the next few years.
STL apparently is on the shortlist for JetBlue now that they are working with AA.
Laurence also suggested that the NEA would allow the pair to “work together to have additional relevance in some of the more business-oriented markets in the Midwest, for example, that we have not been able to break into historically.” While he did not name specific cities in the earnings call an internal memo to crewmembers suggests that San Antonio, Kansas City, St. Louis, and Milwaukee are among the markets on the shortlist for the next few years.
It really leaves Spirit as the outlier, and honestly surprised they're not having STL on their radar. At least that we know of right now.
JetBlue is a fantastic product and given STL's location, if they ever wanted a mid-continent focus operation, the airport knows a thing or two about that from the past and now currently with SWA's growing operation. Plus, the competition would be a big plus for fliers in the area.
JetBlue is in a good position to be STL's only flight to JFK, and therefore could generate some traffic from folks connecting to European destinations even with a limited presence here.
How does the B6/AA partnership work? Do they code share? Can I book a single-ticket flight to Paris or Madrid via JFK? If yes then I don't care who flies to JFK from here. If not, I'd rather have AA.
How does the B6/AA partnership work? Do they code share? Can I book a single-ticket flight to Paris or Madrid via JFK? If yes then I don't care who flies to JFK from here. If not, I'd rather have AA.
That’s the way I understand it. But it will ONLY be at the Boston and New York area airports. So if JetBlue were to start a route to say Florida the codeshare there wouldn’t apply with AA.
In theory though if it was JetBlue on the route (BOS/JFK) it would open up other codeshares with European airlines JetBlue has codeshares with airlines we currently don’t have connections to. I doubt that applies if AA flies it, but I don’t know that for sure.
Thanks. No codeshare to Florida is fine, I care about codeshare to NY area airports due to international connections. My understanding is that JetBlue has a network of "strong codeshares" (i.e. Aer Lingus) and "weak codeshares" that only work on certain routes (LH, TP, etc). If I can fly to Lisbon via Boston (B6 + TP) that'd be great. Otherwise it may be safer to stick to the OneWorld network that AA has; it seems that these large airline alliances are kind of unravelling at the moment though (adn this seemed to be a trend pre-Covid).
This is part of a company-wide furlough of 13,000 employees this spring. Causality lies totally on decreased demand for air travel because of Covid-19. American apparently thought we'd be back to normal this summer, which we most definitely won't be.
For STL, 1,170 employees are furloughed as of April 10th. Corporate anticipates all 1,170 will be brought back on the job once demand resumes. (Knock wood)
^I think they still have a maintenance base, albeit switched over to 737s now. Business might even have picked up there were it not for the pandemic. Is the flight attendant base still open as well? They also still have an ops center, I think. I wouldn't be completely surprised if they actually have more employees in town than even Southwest. (I wouldn't want to bet on it, but it wouldn't shock me.)
. Oh well.
