^ Guy is a total snake. I was actually a bit shocked when he came out and just plainly said he helped kill the privatization vote bill because Spencer didn't support his attempt to stop ward reduction, something a clear majority of people support. Came right out and basically said it was retribution. The only thing he's earned is an election loss.
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Homeowners throughout the St. Louis metro area could make out financially if St. Louis City and County merge, including homeowners in St. Charles and Jefferson Counties. St. Louis metro area home values are currently lower, and have been rising more slowly, than nearly all of our eight closest similar metros, according to Zillow. New college grads nowadays tend choose the city where they want to live first, ahead of the company. They are bombarded on social media with rankings of best places to live. But no city’s ranking is less representative of its surrounding metro area than St. Louis, especially with respect to crime.
A merged St. Louis city will be comparable in size and make-up to our competitor cities, which often include many of their suburbs already. New St. Louis city rankings would more fairly align with our favorable metro area rankings, which are rarely publicized.
If word of better rankings, more effective regional problem-solving, and a new can-do attitude of St. Louisans bring the St. Louis average metro home values up to the average of our neighboring metros, home values would increase by fourteen percent on average on top of inflation. An average home in St. Charles County would increase in today’s dollars by $32 thousand, in Chesterfield by $54 thousand, and in Creve Coeur by $62 thousand. Total homeowner wealth across the metro area would increase by at least $25 billion, which means lower tax rates to raise current levels of money for schools and services.
A merged St. Louis city will be comparable in size and make-up to our competitor cities, which often include many of their suburbs already. New St. Louis city rankings would more fairly align with our favorable metro area rankings, which are rarely publicized.
If word of better rankings, more effective regional problem-solving, and a new can-do attitude of St. Louisans bring the St. Louis average metro home values up to the average of our neighboring metros, home values would increase by fourteen percent on average on top of inflation. An average home in St. Charles County would increase in today’s dollars by $32 thousand, in Chesterfield by $54 thousand, and in Creve Coeur by $62 thousand. Total homeowner wealth across the metro area would increase by at least $25 billion, which means lower tax rates to raise current levels of money for schools and services.
Did anyone go to JCM's town hall against merger at SLCC last week? Didn't see any reportage on it. Did it even happen? I see his tweets about it are deleted.
The President of the BoA race is looking like a real cluster. Thinking Reed pulls it is but it is hard to tell if the precincts that are reporting are representative. Definitely wish only one person had run against him, though I decided not to vote as I couldn't really support Nasheed or Green.
Reed wins by the skin of his teeth with Green and Nasheed basically tied. Ready for 4 more years of incompetence and corruption. Reed is probably the best candidate if you want Better Together to succeed, because his opposition was almost certainly for the sake of the election and won't amount to any actual action (since he takes very little action at all).
^ I have no dog in this fight because I don't live in the City, but from my view the standard operating procedure of the entire St. Louis region is corruption and, especially, incompetence. Lewis Reed is one small character in a production loaded with self-interested, self-absorbed a**holes. That's the St. Louis way and has been since I've been alive.
I’ll start by saying that I’m supportive of Better Togather’s proposal. It’s not the silver bullet that will cure all of our region’s ills, but it certainly is a step in the right direction. If I had any doubt about my opinions, these resolutions from muni mayors and officials who stand to lose power in their fiefdoms (from Olivette to Chesterfield) tells me this plan is probably the right move - if that many politicians are against it, it’s probably a good idea. And then there’s this guy, who’s essentially threatening voters. The short-sightedness and tribalism of some of these detractors is very interesting. I’m interested in hearing from those who disagree with this plan share their ideas and voice their concerns (and have heard from these perspectives as they number among my friends and family), but threats and empty resolutions from muni leaders who obviously have a lot to lose if this passes are hopefully seen by voters as the actions of people who have their own interests above that of the region.
https://www.stltoday.com/news/local/gov ... 8f152.html
https://www.stltoday.com/news/local/gov ... 8f152.html
Very, very well said. I was actually going to post the same link here myself today. This guy is basically advocating for violence and massive disruption if this passes. That and the ridiculous falsehoods that have been coming from Chesterfield's "leaders" are only solidifying my overall support for BT. You're absolutely right in that it's not perfect and should be tweaked...but if the alternative is more BS like Chesterfield's asshattery and this guy here, no thanks.robbie wrote: ↑Mar 07, 2019I’ll start by saying that I’m supportive of Better Togather’s proposal. It’s not the silver bullet that will cure all of our region’s ills, but it certainly is a step in the right direction. If I had any doubt about my opinions, these resolutions from muni mayors and officials who stand to lose power in their fiefdoms (from Olivette to Chesterfield) tells me this plan is probably the right move - if that many politicians are against it, it’s probably a good idea. And then there’s this guy, who’s essentially threatening voters. The short-sightedness and tribalism of some of these detractors is very interesting. I’m interested in hearing from those who disagree with this plan share their ideas and voice their concerns (and have heard from these perspectives as they number among my friends and family), but threats and empty resolutions from muni leaders who obviously have a lot to lose if this passes are hopefully seen by voters as the actions of people who have their own interests above that of the region.
https://www.stltoday.com/news/local/gov ... 8f152.html
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Did you guys even listen to his interview? Tony Messenger and David Hunn were both kind of agreeing with his thoughts. Better Together didn't get any input from the African American community, and that's why Mike Jones was so upset. Better Together didn't even meet with anyone from the Ferguson Commission until 1 week before their announcement in January. And yet they're promoting themselves as working with the commission and following the Ferguson report. Also, Mike Jones is worried, as am I, that two leaders (Krewson and Stenger) will be running all of this after Stenger won his re-election by 1,100 votes out of 192,000 and Krewson won her election by 888 votes. These are not exactly the people's champions. They basically won on coin tosses, and yet we're going to suspend a mayoral election to let Stenger be in office for 6 years. Someone who can't even show up to County council meetings because every single council member is against him. It just screams corruption that Better Together cut a deal with Stenger to make him the new King of Metro.
Many of those are valid concerns, but threatening mass disruption, protests, and "bringing St. Louis to a standstill" is not going to win me over.
As I, and many others have said, if all these anti-BT folks have is scare tactics, anger and obstruction then I'm not going to listen to them. I'm not interested in the status quo anymore and unfortunately everyone b*tching about BT has done jack sh*t to make me think they have something better that could work. Keeping things the way they are now isn't going to cut it.
I hate Stenger too and don't agree with the way the mayoral situation worked out. I'm with you on that one. But I'm willing to swallow that pill until the next election (where he will almost assuredly be voted out, like you said he only won by 1,100 votes and in the first election of the Metro City you're going to have another 120,000 or so registered voters (city) that aren't likely to choose him) if it means consolidation of police, courts, transpo, economic development, and others. There's plenty to dislike about BT, I have my own concerns, they just don't outweigh the concerns I have about the current health of the St. Louis region, which is pretty abysmal. It's time to fix it, this is a huge step toward doing that.
As I, and many others have said, if all these anti-BT folks have is scare tactics, anger and obstruction then I'm not going to listen to them. I'm not interested in the status quo anymore and unfortunately everyone b*tching about BT has done jack sh*t to make me think they have something better that could work. Keeping things the way they are now isn't going to cut it.
I hate Stenger too and don't agree with the way the mayoral situation worked out. I'm with you on that one. But I'm willing to swallow that pill until the next election (where he will almost assuredly be voted out, like you said he only won by 1,100 votes and in the first election of the Metro City you're going to have another 120,000 or so registered voters (city) that aren't likely to choose him) if it means consolidation of police, courts, transpo, economic development, and others. There's plenty to dislike about BT, I have my own concerns, they just don't outweigh the concerns I have about the current health of the St. Louis region, which is pretty abysmal. It's time to fix it, this is a huge step toward doing that.
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^ you're negative and completely distorted view of St. Louis continues to amaze.
The Better Together plan is the only one on the table. Sure, it's got some warts, but we can fix those afterwards. The Board of Freeholders are just trying to distract us with the promise that someday they'll come up with a better alternative. Meanwhile, another two or three decades will pass with nothing being done.
St. Louis needs a cold, hard slap on the face, and we need it right now. I'm voting yes.
St. Louis needs a cold, hard slap on the face, and we need it right now. I'm voting yes.
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You can call me Anti-BT, but I'm Pro-St. Louis. I would be behind this proposal 100% if it actually helped all of St. Louis equally and was thoroughly vetted through public input. If Better Together actually did the hard work, as the Ferguson Commission did, to meet face to face with all of the individuals and municipalities involved to hash out the difficult questions I would be behind this 100%. Instead, they side-stepped all of them and is hoping the public is dumb enough to believe them when they said this is for the people, by the people. Also, as Tony Messenger explained in the interview, suspending an election to extend Stenger is not only thoroughly undemocratic, it's also unheard of. None of the other cities that consolidated had their mayoral elections suspended. Not Indianapolis, not Louisville, not Nashville. It just makes you wonder why? Why suspend an election to extend Stenger? And if you start questioning that, and you hear that they didn't even talk to the Ferguson Commission, or any of the municipalities it just makes you really step back and ask who is this really for, and why do we have to do it like this? I don't know why the only two options have to be, "accept the Better Together proposal or keep the status quo." These shouldn't be the only options. It might piss you off it takes a little longer to get it right, but having ALL of the people of St. Louis at the table to make these decisions is what needs to happen.
Explain to me how my view of St. Louis is distorted. Feel free to send a PM.STLrainbow wrote: ↑Mar 07, 2019^ you're negative and completely distorted view of St. Louis continues to amaze.
I'm with you.
Oh, and ForeverLou, explain what you mean by taking a little bit longer? So far the only two options are BT and the status quo and no one, not a single soul has pushed anything other than these two things. What is this perfect plan you speak of that only needs little bit more time? BT has been slowly releasing data and studies and having public meetings for the last 5 years, yet total silence from the municipal league and other county/muni officials. 5 years BT has been on the scene, and no one, no one, has so much lifted a damn finger to come up with a competing plan. St. Louis has been struggling for a long time now and the original divorce happened over 140 years ago. The last time St. Louis tried a merger or consolidation was in 1987. The naysayers have had their shot...for decades and were too lazy to step up and do anything. My view of St. Louis is not distorted, by nearly every measurable metric STL is failing and falling behind it's peers. St. Louis is a fine city, it has great bones, but the current crop of leadership refuses to build upon them. Enough is enough. I'm voting yes, no matter how distorted some of you might think that is.
Indeed, framer, a cold, hard, slap is needed.
My left foot was broken in an accident. I haven't gotten around all that well since. I'm going to shoot myself in the right foot to see if that helps.
Anybody want to start a movement to get something like the Borough Plan of 1962 on the ballot?
I think the BT plan is solid, but I think the Borough Plan would be better...
I think the BT plan is solid, but I think the Borough Plan would be better...
How do you plan to get it done?
Board of Freeholders? Opponents will sue it to death.
Amendment? How do you gather the signatures?
Board of Freeholders? Opponents will sue it to death.
Amendment? How do you gather the signatures?
Haven't thought that far ahead yet...
160k signatures is a lot if you don't have the funding of a million dollar campaign
160k signatures is a lot if you don't have the funding of a million dollar campaign
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You paint Saint Louis as a dysfunctional, high poverty mess that's in collapse etc.etc. blah blah blah. In reality, it has lower poverty and a much higher percentage of adults with college degrees than most of our peers, including supposed models like Louisville and Indy. Now that's embarrassing! We're getting along much more than nay-sayers like you portray us.The Mayor wrote: ↑Mar 07, 2019Explain to me how my view of St. Louis is distorted. Feel free to send a PMSTLrainbow wrote: ↑Mar 07, 2019^ you're negative and completely distorted view of St. Louis continues to amaze.
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If protests are violent then equating protests and civil disobedience with violence is precisely the same sort of violence. A lot of protesters are protesting a system they believe is keeping them down. They're angry, and usually not without reason. When we say to them "The system works. You shouldn't threaten to slow it down or change it," they might hear something like "You don't have a right to be anywhere other than down. Get back down."
I think Jones is trying very hard to say "This plan will hurt people. This plan will cost people their voice in the politics of their own homes. And that isn't fair." And unfairness on this level won't go unanswered politically or economically. This plan looks an awful lot like a gut-punch to the city. People will be angry. If it passes I will be angry and sad and frustrated and more than a little lost. Some people will inevitably respond. Protests are only reasonable and fair. Boycotts are about as legal and non-violent as any possible civil action. There will be votes. There will be boycotts. There will be angry people in the streets shouting for justice. If you think that's violent you might want to reexamine violence. How will anyone in favor of this plan respond if it doesn't pass? Will you move out? That's a very big boycott. Will you write angry letters to the newspaper? Will you stand up and confront your elected officials? Will you march down to city hall and demand your leaders do better? Maybe call all your like-minded friends and go march down together? Those are protests. That's how it works.
That's not violence. That's democracy.
This plan is an attempt to create an autocratic end-run around our self-rule because the proponents don't think they will get the result they want if it's up for a vote here. It will replace MY government with one appointed by outsiders. It will water down the franchise of the most disenfranchised community in the whole dang state. People have a right to be angry about that.
I think Jones is trying very hard to say "This plan will hurt people. This plan will cost people their voice in the politics of their own homes. And that isn't fair." And unfairness on this level won't go unanswered politically or economically. This plan looks an awful lot like a gut-punch to the city. People will be angry. If it passes I will be angry and sad and frustrated and more than a little lost. Some people will inevitably respond. Protests are only reasonable and fair. Boycotts are about as legal and non-violent as any possible civil action. There will be votes. There will be boycotts. There will be angry people in the streets shouting for justice. If you think that's violent you might want to reexamine violence. How will anyone in favor of this plan respond if it doesn't pass? Will you move out? That's a very big boycott. Will you write angry letters to the newspaper? Will you stand up and confront your elected officials? Will you march down to city hall and demand your leaders do better? Maybe call all your like-minded friends and go march down together? Those are protests. That's how it works.
That's not violence. That's democracy.
This plan is an attempt to create an autocratic end-run around our self-rule because the proponents don't think they will get the result they want if it's up for a vote here. It will replace MY government with one appointed by outsiders. It will water down the franchise of the most disenfranchised community in the whole dang state. People have a right to be angry about that.
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^ People who are angry about people being angry about plans to dilute minority voting power make me angry. 
I think the more apt analogy for St. Louis would be: my left foot was broken in an accident. I haven't gotten around all that well since. I'll keep walking on it and hopefully it will just heal itselfbprop wrote: My left foot was broken in an accident. I haven't gotten around all that well since. I'm going to shoot myself in the right foot to see if that helps.
I appreciate that the bulk of this group pays attention and has an educated perspective on the region unlike a lot of people whose knee-jerk reaction is to dump on the city because KMOV's nightly news told them to.
But even the most optimistic of St. Louisans is fooling themselves if they don't think this city as a whole is lagging behind other metros. It's even more dramatic when you focus on only the city. There is no growth, crime remains high, poverty in the city was at 20% in 2017 which is 8% higher than the national average (it drops below markets like Indy and Louisville only when you factor in St. Louis County and St. Charles County). Frankly, the fact that Indy and Louisville are considered peer cities despite having over a million less people is kind of depressing in itself.
St. Louis certainly has some good things going for it, but in areas like tech, start-ups, development, etc. where we all celebrate the progress we've made, the list of major metros that can't match or exceed STL in each of those is pretty short. Part of my day job is keeping tabs on cities like Chicago, Dallas, Seattle, Denver, Phoenix, Indy (albeit primarily as it relates to real estate development) and it's sort of demoralizing at times when comparing them to your home city. No most of those are not realistic peers, but it's pretty stark to compare STL to the the cities that continue to pass us in the MSA population rankings.
I'm not necessarily sold on BT and their "take a sledgehammer to it all" strategy, but I tend to agree that when it fails (i have no expectation that it will pass based on current reaction and 100 years of history) we'll all be disappointed if we expect a strategic, ideal plan to be right behind it. The most realistic method would probably be incremental changes with the County, be it joining as a municipality, continued efforts on collaborations, consolidation of small municipalities in the city so there are less hands in the cookie jar, etc.
Growth is only one metric to determine health of an area. I think we are growing in the right places. I live in the central corridor and it is overwhelming the amount of investment and new builds going in. $8+ Billion wouldn't be invested in a declining area. My job is travel, and I've been to nearly all of the peer cities. Hype is the only differentiator in many cases, we have the same things they have, more in many cases since we have bigger bones. Perception and hype is what needs to improve but I have seen a trend shift locally in the past few years.