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PostFeb 13, 2019#1001

I guess I’ll finally chime in on this.

Things I like from BT plan:
Reduction of municipal courts
Elimination of city sales tax
Reduction of police depts
Existing cities as municipal districts
Elimination of earnings tax
St. Louis as 9th largest city in the US

What I don’t like:
Reduction of police dept —not down to just one, but maybe to like 12. One could work but the City police is an old-school, circle the wagons mess, the ones in North County have substandard training and vetting of officers, and so on. Trying to implement accountability and professional standards across all will be a daunting task.
Existing cities as municipal districts—Consolidation should happen prior to the new Metro City taking affect. The North County patchwork should be consolidated into two districts. On the southern side, Marlboro goes away. So does Oakland. And Twin Oaks. Towns like Valley Park and Overland are on the bubble.

What needs to happen regardless:
Consolidation of smaller cities. I mean serious consolidation, from 89 to like 12.
City reentry into the County—consolidate county departments such as economic development, port authority, housing, health, etc.

What I’d still like to see happen:
Reduced municipal courts
Elimination of city sales tax
Metro-wide zoning and planning
Honestly, these are the scale tippers for me.

9th largest city
That can happen without BTs plan. This would require the Census Bureau re-designating and combining St. Louis City and the County as a ‘statistical city.’ A group called St. Louis Word-Class City was advocating for this about ten years ago. Not sure if they are still active.

I’ve lost respect for those behind the BoF plan. Had BT not proposed their plan NOTHING would have changed. People talk about fragmentation and all that and do nothing. BT lights a fire under everyone’s @sses and now their saying there’s a better way to do this. Yet they did nothing and never would have done anything. Which goes to show our municipal ‘leaders’ are incapable of leading, only reacting.

Lastly, I have absolutely no problem with a state-wide vote. One because the plan calls for a municipal structure that requires a statewide vote. So many people fail to realize that. The chances are better for passing. The Mayor is right, I don’t trust anyone in the area to act outside of their own self-interest. Ironically, I’ve read editorials and opinions of people who don’t think fragmentation is a problem. If you don’t see it, you’ve so isolated yourself from the metro area that you’ve already proven the point you’re arguing against.
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PostFeb 13, 2019#1002

Nextstl - Bankruptcy- Just Do It?

https://nextstl.com/2019/02/bankruptcy-just-do-it/

PostFeb 13, 2019#1003

shadrach wrote: 9th largest city
That can happen without BTs plan. This would require the Census Bureau re-designating and combining St. Louis City and the County as a ‘statistical city.’ A group called St. Louis Word-Class City was advocating for this about ten years ago. Not sure if they are still active.
Stl-WCC had an idea. It fizzled when they couldn't follow thru with anything. And it's become very clear we need to do way more than "statistical city." I don't think we can compell the Census Bureau to do anything.
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PostFeb 14, 2019#1004

shadrach wrote: ↑
Feb 13, 2019
I’ve lost respect for those behind the BoF plan. Had BT not proposed their plan NOTHING would have changed. People talk about fragmentation and all that and do nothing. BT lights a fire under everyone’s @sses and now their saying there’s a better way to do this. Yet they did nothing and never would have done anything. Which goes to show our municipal ‘leaders’ are incapable of leading, only reacting.
AMEN!

If anyone has a better plan than BT get it on the ballot. Enough talk, it's time to act.
sc4mayor
sc4mayor

PostFeb 14, 2019#1005

STLrainbow wrote: ↑
Feb 13, 2019
The Mayor wrote: ↑
Feb 13, 2019
STLrainbow wrote: ↑
Feb 11, 2019
 ^ with all due respect, and generally as a fan of KC, your current town's "core" is just as, if not more, f'd up than ours. You don't even have a fully accredited KCPS. Just sayin.
Not offended at all, I hate Kansas City. Can't wait to leave. I'm not sure I'd say the core here is in as bad of shape though, KC also doesn't have near as much core. But it is growing, as is it's economy, and it's finances are far more stable. KCPS had their best year in sometime this past year, if they can maintain the scores over the next year the state has said full accreditation will be granted.

But that's all beside my original point. Most American cities (especially in this region) suffer from these types of issues or have in the recent past. But none of them seem to struggle anywhere near as much as St. Louis does in dealing with them. Baltimore does but...oh wait.
I disagree with you almost entirely.
That's fine. I'm not going to get in a pissing match with you about KC, that's not the point of this thread. After all, most of these are just opinions, and having spent at least a decade in both regions my experiences and opinions are going to be different than yours. It is what it is. Maybe it's just perception, but KC doesn't seem as close to the brink as St. Louis is. I never said KC was a shining example, but St. Louis certainly isn't it.
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PostFeb 14, 2019#1006

pdm_ad wrote: ↑
Feb 14, 2019
shadrach wrote: ↑
Feb 13, 2019
I’ve lost respect for those behind the BoF plan. Had BT not proposed their plan NOTHING would have changed. People talk about fragmentation and all that and do nothing. BT lights a fire under everyone’s @sses and now their saying there’s a better way to do this. Yet they did nothing and never would have done anything. Which goes to show our municipal ‘leaders’ are incapable of leading, only reacting.
AMEN!

If anyone has a better plan than BT get it on the ballot. Enough talk, it's time to act.
The Muni League could have initiated a BoF at any time. Right after the Ferguson Commission Report came out would have bern a good time. They could have lead, but they worried about spending $ on new PD buildings and getting TIF'd retail.

St. Louis is a World Class City could have been more grass-roots than BT, but they were feckless. We'd talk and talk round and round at the meetings. Then they were going to go for city reentry which didn't accomplish their main goal of a mechanism by which stats for the thing called "St. Louis" would cover the 1.3M people.

We tried to make St. Louis Strong the org tbat took the baton from BT, to do the grass roots work to form a plan and carry it to a vote without Rex's fingerprints on it. We didn't get buy in from wealthy donors (We raised like $8k. Thanks very much to our donors, but that's not enough to do the work) nor politicians.

So here we are.
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PostFeb 14, 2019#1007

The Muni League's "plan" is just a very, very thin smokescreen designed to distract people in an effort to delay any actual progress on getting consolidation done. Delay meaning decades of "study" before actually doing anything.
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PostFeb 15, 2019#1008

Nextstl - Des Peres Discovers Its Fragility

https://nextstl.com/2019/02/des-peres-d ... fragility/
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PostFeb 16, 2019#1009

^^^ Mayor, the reason why this is so important is that there is absolutely no solid evidence that big metro govts. result in stronger cores than so-called fragmented govts... in fact one can make the case the opposite is true.

Personally, I'd much rather have the city re-enter the County and have us pursue an unapologetically urban-oriented path that makes us look more like "fragmented" but vibrant Pittsburgh and Minneapolis than Unigov Indianapolis or a large expansive city like KC even if our warts are more visible.
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PostFeb 17, 2019#1010

Pittsburgh is vibrant? Compared to who exactly?
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PostFeb 17, 2019#1011

If St Louis is ever going to be a progressive welcoming city to not only businesses but new potential residences I’ll definitely take better together than what we currently have. My opinion it doesn’t matter if St Louis is the 10th largest or the most dangerous if we don’t do anything now to change how we govern as region then it’ll continue to get out jobbed by other cities remain the most dangerous even begin to lose regional population. St Louis is judged and judged heavily on the negatives. If anyone has a better plan then put it forward cause what we have now hasn’t worked for over 60 years
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PostFeb 17, 2019#1012

STLrainbow wrote: ↑
Feb 16, 2019
 have us pursue an unapologetically urban-oriented path that makes us look more like "fragmented" but vibrant Pittsburgh and Minneapolis than Unigov Indianapolis or a large expansive city like KC even if our warts are more visible.
What's stopping us from doing that now?
We can't even get rid of parking minimums.

PostFeb 17, 2019#1013

Nextstl - Does Merger Make St. Louis a Strong Town?

https://nextstl.com/2019/02/does-merger ... rong-town/
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PostFeb 17, 2019#1014

Ebsy wrote: ↑
Feb 17, 2019
 Pittsburgh is vibrant? Compared to who exactly?
Pittsburgh City is one of the most dynamic cities not on a coast in the country, and certainly among rust belt/legacy/greater midwest cities. STL City could learn a lot from it, especially compared to Indianapolis, which is basically a model of what not to do if you want to build a healthy core.
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PostFeb 17, 2019#1015

STLrainbow wrote: ↑
Feb 17, 2019
Ebsy wrote: ↑
Feb 17, 2019
 Pittsburgh is vibrant? Compared to who exactly?
Pittsburgh City is one of the most dynamic cities not on a coast in the country, and certainly among rust belt/legacy/greater midwest cities. STL City could learn a lot from it, especially compared to Indianapolis, which is basically a model of what not to do if you want to build a healthy core.
Learn what specifically?
sc4mayor
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PostFeb 18, 2019#1016

^ I'm curious to know as well. Pittsburgh is a nice city, but what exactly is it doing that's so dynamic? It's job growth is roughly equal to St. Louis, it's urban population continues to decline and even it's metropolitan population is falling. Down over 22,000 people between the 2010 census and March of 2018. It's revival was mostly centered around it's strong healthcare anchors, universities, and tech. St. Louis' revival has largely centered around the same types of institutions. Pittsburgh is probably a few steps ahead on the tech front with companies like Google, Apple and Uber having offices there, but STL has been notching some pretty sizable wins on the tech front too.

I would say Atlanta, Dallas, Austin and Denver (especially) are quite a bit more dynamic and vibrant as far as non-coastal cities go.

And while I'm not too privy about what's going on in Indianapolis, from a distance it seems like a perfectly fine city. It's population growth outpaces the Midwest. That merger was also forced by the State Legislature. But if that's what not to do, what about a city like Nashville? Seems to work quite well for them and their core seems fairly healthy as well.
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PostFeb 18, 2019#1017

I suppose it depends on how you define "vibrant." For myself, I am more interested in cultural offerings than population statistics, and Pittsburgh does very well indeed on that front. The Carnegie is a truly top notch collection of museums. The orchestra is first rate. The urban core is beautiful and generally seems quite healthy. Sure, we all spend a little too much time poring over statistics. But I think we are the exception not the rule. And as a tourist on the ground? Pittsburgh would actually be near the top of the list of cities I'd like to see again. Ahead of nearly all the fancier and more trendy ones. I'd make a list, but I'm not here to piss on anybody tonight. Short version? It's a fun town. It's pretty. There's a lot I like there. When you're there it's a great town. Does it get the press of the trendy towns? Maybe not. But I'm kind of sick of them anyway.

The word "vibrant" evokes an emotional response rather than a statistical one. Statistical arguments about who is growing fast have no business in countering that. It IS vibrant. And if you don't believe that all I can say is you've probably never been there. It's fun. Not to everyone's taste, maybe, but vibrant is all about taste. Some folks think rock and roll sucks. Others hate rap, or country, or R&B. Lots of others dislike the dry and dusty seeming stuff I write and love. But say to someone's face that their taste in music sucks? Those are fighting words. I assure you. Quite literally. People get punched over less. Saying a city isn't vibrant? Same dif. I loudly cussed out an old lady at the opera over approximately that. (Second intermission of Die Walküre when I had tickets to the whole cycle. I had to sit through another twelve or fourteen hours of Wagner next to her.) At the time I was deeply frustrated with myself, but as I think about it . . . she had it coming. You don't dis my town lightly, you dried up old church lady prune. Especially not when you're from fricking trendyville sacred cowtown. At this point it almost feels good. You say my city isn't vibrant? F**k you! And your town and the horse you rode in on.

So . . . let's take it easy. Before the first fights break out. Pittsburgh's a great town.

Let's sit down over a beer and figure out why BT's plan is or isn't a good idea like beer drinking grownups. (But maybe let's keep the beer containers on the lighter and less injurious side.) ;-)
sc4mayor
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PostFeb 18, 2019#1018

^ Whoa, hold up lol. I wasn't attempting to fight with anyone. My comment was a genuine question about Pittsburgh. As I said it is a nice city, I love the architecture, the hills, the skyline is gorgeous. It's got great institutions, cultural attractions and universities, most large American cities, St. Louis included, do. None of that really answers my question though. I'm more curious about what Pittsburgh is doing to set itself apart and what we can learn from it, as STLrainbow put it. I honestly didn't think what I said about Pitt was offensive, but sorry if it was. I've actually always thought Pittsburgh and St. Louis had a lot in common.

And while you may not care about statistics, population loss is important and worrisome. You can have all the greatest attractions and culture in the world but if people keep leaving and taking their money with them it won't matter in the end.

And trade that beer out for some whiskey and I'm in ;)
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PostFeb 18, 2019#1019

^ like sp, I believe vibrancy is far more than population growth; population density and prosperity e.g. are key factors as well as what he mentioned with culture, etc. For example, if we just looked at population growth, Japan would likely be considered a failed state. Like Japan, Western Pennsylvania/Appalachia region has demographic issue with more deaths than births... iirc the only region of America that has that population challenge.

But when you look at Pittsburgh itself it is a city that has warts like all big cities and that still has work to do like all big cities, yet it has a rather stabilized population and much higher density and prosperity than cores like Indianapolis and Louisville. (Nashville core also is low-density but it has the additional challenge of how to manage immense regional sprawl and population growth if it wants a sustainable future.)

Like Saint Louis County, I think Allegheny County's suburbs definitely could use significant internal consolidation and I'm sure continued consolidation/cooperation between the city and Allegheny County govts. is in order, but it definitely serves as an example of how a similar, geographically-constrained peer city can make significant strides in improving the capacity and functionality of its city govt. while being a partner in a rather remarkable transformation of it's local economy and growing prosperity as it solidifies the city's location as a place where business wants to be.... not just in being the clear regional epicenter of its traditional business community but also in having major jobs investments from global tech companies seeking to particularly capitalize on Pittsburgh's AI talent. It's almost a question of who is not there than who is there when it comes to tech.
sc4mayor
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PostFeb 18, 2019#1020

^ I agree with all of that. However, there is nothing stopping St. Louis from doing these things today, and yet they don't. I have no faith St. Louis leaders will ever attempt to break down those barriers as they have, to an extent, in Pittsburgh. Mayors across St. Louis County aren't interested in working with the city or really even with each other. Like others have said up thread, all this BoF crap and anti-BT people clamoring for a better plan have had 140+ years to come up with that plan. BT has been on the scene for the better part of 5 years. We knew this was coming, and yet still no urgency from these folks until now.

I'd be fine with re-entering the City into the County and then all the County muni's simply consolidate into 4 or so large cities giving the current St. Louis County 5 or so large municipalities. This way it wouldn't be necessary to have a statewide vote, the current county government stays in place, the 5 or cities manage their own sales tax revenue, zoning, preservation, trash, parks, etc. It would even maintain some of the BS parochialism that people in STL seem to love so much. But I would keep the unified police, courts, transportation, eco development, etc, only instead of a "Metro Gov" they'd simply be carried out at the County level. The city maintains it's municipal charter, some of its autonomy and the earnings tax and so forth.

Now I'm sure someone here will happily pick this apart but at the end of the day there is no perfect plan. What I like may not be what you like and visa verse. But simply saying that we just need to be more like Pittsburgh isn't going to cut it.
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PostFeb 18, 2019#1021

Well, since this "vibrant" qualifier is in fact totally based on subjective opinions and not on quantitative and since no one has said anything specific Pittsburgh has done that St. Louis should replicate, I have a hard time taking this discussion seriously. If Pittsburgh's small inner core is more stabilized than St. Louis, it also has just as many equivalent bombed out post industrial areas, though maybe instead of being downtown they are stretched out along the river. I see St. Louis and Pittsburgh as very similar cities facing similar problems, and it perplexes me why we should take for granted that Pittsburgh is doing better than St. Louis is, because from an quantitative point of view that ignores "the hype", it isn't.
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PostFeb 18, 2019#1022

^ Pittsburgh City government has made more progress than we have in overhauling itself into a more modernized, 21c era and they're in stronger fiscal shape and able to provide more resources on important things like neighborhood planning, complete streets and affordable housing that are making for a stronger and healthier core.

As for the larger socio-economic environment, the city population has essentially stabilized, has lower poverty and higher education attainment than we do and has a significantly higher presence of corporate and tech jobs. We're making progress, and again our core also is far more competitive with our peers than a lot think, but I think it's pretty clear we have some considerable work left before we are on Pittsburgh's level, let alone the Twin Cities.

And again my primary point is there is scarce evidence merged, large geographic cities result in stronger cores than smaller ones and that the opposite may in fact have more validity. Having us back in the County and strengthening our already considerable bonds would be a big step forward for building a stronger, sustainable urban core; imo dissolving the city outright is more questionable.
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PostFeb 19, 2019#1023

According to the most recent ACS data St. Louis and Pittsburgh have very similar poverty rates, 12.4 vs 12.2, an exceedingly small amount of difference, and if you dig down into the data, it is basically because Pittsburgh has fewer black residents. Poverty rates for both African Americans and Whites are significantly higher in Pittsburgh than they are in St. Louis, further complicating the comparison that Pittsburgh has "lower" poverty.

I also checked education numbers, and the St. Louis CSA has a modestly higher educational attainment rate of a bachelor's degree or more than the Pittsburgh CSA.
sc4mayor
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PostFeb 19, 2019#1024

^ He only seems to be concerned about the "core." So it's not likely the more comparable metro area statistics (or apparently any statistics) are going to sway his opinion.

To me, this point of view only further solidifies the need for a merger of some sort. My concerns are for the whole, all of the City and the County, it seems the only concern for some here is either just the "core" or whatever little municipality they call home. Which is exactly the damn problem.

And regarding a "strong core" in the cities cited above. Nashville, Louisville, and Indy never had large, dense strong urban cores to begin with. They've always been smaller, more rural cities. A consolidated government of some sort in St. Louis, isn't suddenly going to destroy the very large and built out urban core St. Louis already has. The municipal corporation would still be in charge of zoning, preservation, trash pickup, parks, and other everyday services. It's not like the city is suddenly going to become a suburb. And a consolidated government couldn't possibly make St. Louis' core any weaker or worse off than it already is.

What STLrainbow has suggested here...

"Having us back in the County and strengthening our already considerable bonds would be a big step forward for building a stronger, sustainable urban core; imo dissolving the city outright is more questionable."

...to me reads like, lets just leave it all the same and hope our leaders who are fighting tooth and nail for the status quo...will end up changing the status quo. They won't, they haven't yet and they've had more than enough time. There is literally no indication that St. Louis' current crop of leaders (Krewson and Stenger somewhat excepted here) have any will to change or do anything differently.
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PostFeb 19, 2019#1025

Sounds like the consolidation in Louisville is having some unforeseen consequences https://www.wdrb.com/news/city-workers- ... user-share. These are the types of details that have to be thoroughly examined before diving head first into the Better Together plan. Imagine the type of service the residents in Louisville will experience if/when these layoffs occur. Also, from what I've read, Louisville laid off 700 government workers when the consolidation happened. I'm curious what the residents thought about their services after the layoffs took place.
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