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PostMar 08, 2019#1076

^ agreed 100%. And it's not just Central Corridor that's been seeing remarkable change the past few years.

^^ Jbsbcott, I hear what you're saying about frustration with population growth, etc., but a place like Indianapolis is a perfect example of population growth being only one factor, and at time's a vastly over-rated one imo, of a city or region's overall health. For example, poverty there has climbed greatly since 2000 while we have held steady; STL City by itself has a significantly lower poverty rate than what's in the Indianapolis Public School District (which more or less serves the "old city") and it's not too much higher than the rate for that entire city; when we add in the STL County's low poverty rate you begin to see how poor Indy really is. And we also blow it out of the water on college grads, etc. But you'll never hear that song from the Better Together Chorus.

I agree with your comments on re-entering the city into the county.

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PostMar 10, 2019#1077

Another merger-skeptical article: https://www.stlmag.com/history/what-st- ... t-divorce/.

The more and more I think about it, the more I am against this BT-style merger. Merging in this fashion as a metro city seems almost like a bailout for the County. Sure the City isn't doing so well today or in recent history but the County at this point is basically in decline, with people in the metro area moving to either St. Louis City or St. Charles County. Sure it'll make us "competitive" on paper, which perception-wise would reap dividends, but I'm inclined to think that emulating Indianapolis or Louisville (as well as the annex-happy Sunbelt cities) in such a fashion will just be a sprawl-promoting race to the bottom.

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PostMar 10, 2019#1078

Nextstl - Op-Ed: Is Merger the State’s Business?

https://nextstl.com/2019/03/is-merger-t ... -business/

PostMar 10, 2019#1079

San Diego has about as many ppl as Metro City would.

KPBS- Pro-Density Urbanists Sweep Uptown Planners Election

https://www.kpbs.org/news/2019/mar/06/d ... y-housing/

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PostMar 12, 2019#1080

jbacott wrote:
Mar 08, 2019
bprop wrote: My left foot was broken in an accident. I haven't gotten around all that well since. I'm going to shoot myself in the right foot to see if that helps.
I think the more apt analogy for St. Louis would be: my left foot was broken in an accident. I haven't gotten around all that well since. I'll keep walking on it and hopefully it will just heal itself

I appreciate that the bulk of this group pays attention and has an educated perspective on the region unlike a lot of people whose knee-jerk reaction is to dump on the city because KMOV's nightly news told them to.

But even the most optimistic of St. Louisans is fooling themselves if they don't think this city as a whole is lagging behind other metros. It's even more dramatic when you focus on only the city. There is no growth, crime remains high, poverty in the city was at 20% in 2017 which is 8% higher than the national average (it drops below markets like Indy and Louisville only when you factor in St. Louis County and St. Charles County). Frankly, the fact that Indy and Louisville are considered peer cities despite having over a million less people is kind of depressing in itself.

St. Louis certainly has some good things going for it, but in areas like tech, start-ups, development, etc. where we all celebrate the progress we've made, the list of major metros that can't match or exceed STL in each of those is pretty short. Part of my day job is keeping tabs on cities like Chicago, Dallas, Seattle, Denver, Phoenix, Indy (albeit primarily as it relates to real estate development) and it's sort of demoralizing at times when comparing them to your home city. No most of those are not realistic peers, but it's pretty stark to compare STL to the the cities that continue to pass us in the MSA population rankings.

I'm not necessarily sold on BT and their "take a sledgehammer to it all" strategy, but I tend to agree that when it fails (i have no expectation that it will pass based on current reaction and 100 years of history) we'll all be disappointed if we expect a strategic, ideal plan to be right behind it. The most realistic method would probably be incremental changes with the County, be it joining as a municipality, continued efforts on collaborations, consolidation of small municipalities in the city so there are less hands in the cookie jar, etc.
Well said!

And while some here want to paint me as a "nay-sayer" (LOL) I couldn't be more thrilled with the improvements and new development that have been popping up all over St. Louis. I think my participation on this forum can speak to that, in addition to my social media posts (if anyone feels like stalking me haha). Believe it or not, and I know certain people here won't, I deeply care about this city/region and and am quite a big St. Louis booster (just ask my friends and family how annoyed they get anytime I bring it up). I haven't been this excited about what I see in STL in years. I'm just able to admit STL has serious systemic issues that aren't going to be fixed by little nips and tucks here and there (like a re-entry only plan). I love St. Louis, but anyone who thinks all these new developments and strengthening neighborhoods are going to survive as the region continues to lose population and economic clout has their head in the sand. If St. Louis is going to sustain these rebounding areas and shiny new developments it's going to have to convince people, jobs, and companies to start moving back. It hasn't done that yet and I don't see any indication from area leaders that there's really any attempt at doing so. BT was founded in 2013. They've been releasing data, reports and information since then. We only just got the details of the plan, but their intentions have been known for the better part of 6 years...and yet no action or suggestions from the Muni League or anyone else who opposes BT. Sorry, but that's not a good look, if these people truly cared about moving St. Louis forward they would have been ready...with something, anything. They weren't. And that speaks volumes to me.

Bring on the slap.

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PostMar 25, 2019#1081

A fairly large change in Better Together's plan was announced this morning. Stenger is out as new Metro City mayor should voters approve. Instead whomever is the County Executive and City Mayor at the time will lead the the new city together until a new mayor is selected in 2022 along with the new council.

I don't assume this will change many minds outside of the city (as I know Stenger was a big point of contention with City dwellers), but a fairly significant development nonetheless. Dovetails nicely with the federal subpoena just handed down on the County regarding Stenger's actions. Exciting stuff!

https://www.stltoday.com/news/local/col ... op-story-2

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PostMar 25, 2019#1082

What a wild ride
Wonder how open BT is to other changes. Opponents can come up with "what about X, Y, Z, A,B, C ....." forever and now can say "well you changed that, so why not X?"

PostMar 27, 2019#1083

A thoughtful and mature criticism of the BT plan

RFT - How Better Together’s Plan Will Circumvent Democracy and Bankrupt St. Louis

https://www.riverfronttimes.com/stlouis ... d=31064043

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PostMar 27, 2019#1084

quincunx wrote:
Mar 27, 2019
A thoughtful and mature criticism of the BT plan

RFT - How Better Together’s Plan Will Circumvent Democracy and Bankrupt St. Louis

https://www.riverfronttimes.com/stlouis ... d=31064043
This is honestly the most coherent criticism of Better Together's plan I have read and has actually convinced me that as it stands the plan is probably not a good idea and would not work out well for the region. The earnings tax phase out is the big red flag for me, along with the fact that voters won't get to approve the new charter for the Metro. What kind of scam do they think they are running here?

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PostMar 27, 2019#1085

The BT plan is certainly written in a git 'er done manner.
What if the proposed charter needed 2/3 of the County Council and the BoA? Great, then a majority can't just ignore a minority. But then again a minority (3 Co Council members, 10 Aldermem) can just say no forever.
What if the charter goes to voters, and it fails? then what? The current system endures, and we vote on new charter proposals year after year until one passes? The uncertainty would be bad for everyone.
We all hope the process needed to get it passed in either scenario would result in a better charter. Is it better because it can pass? Watering it down could help it pass (just like city reentry might be easier sell than Metro City, but is woefully inadequate to the challenges we face), but is that better?

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PostMar 27, 2019#1086

quincunx wrote:
Mar 27, 2019
The BT plan is certainly written in a git 'er done manner.
What if the proposed charter needed 2/3 of the County Council and the BoA? Great, then a majority can't just ignore a minority. But then again a minority (3 Co Council members, 10 Aldermem) can just say no forever.
What if the charter goes to voters, and it fails? then what? The current system endures, and we vote on new charter proposals year after year until one passes? The uncertainty would be bad for everyone.
We all hope the process needed to get it passed in either scenario would result in a better charter. Is it better because it can pass? Watering it down could help it pass (just like city reentry might be easier sell than Metro City, but is woefully inadequate to the challenges we face), but is that better?
The problem here is the total lack of democratic legitimacy in light of this going to a statewide vote. If the process had to pass in St. Louis City and County, then fine, our fate would still be in our hands. Instead, voters without much stake in the process are going to essentially be decided whether St. Louis can keep the earnings tax, the new Metro Charter, what taxes are going to be, how much in mandated cuts there will be to City-County government. This is a real concern and not just fretting over losing baronies.

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PostMar 28, 2019#1087

^It is, quite frankly, absurd to aver that if this doesn't happen nothing ever will. Things have already happened; county municipalities have voted themselves out of existence, the city passed a board reduction, municipalities have merged. This isn't speculation. It's history. Small steps, but real. And evidence that more steps are possible. There's political and popular support for many things independent of the plan: city reentry into the county, court reform, and policing reform, for instance. Many of the efficiencies of the plan could be realized without it: police department consolidations and tax pools, for instance. (Which, by the way, has also already been done. More than once. There is absolutely no reason to believe reform is a "this plan or nothing" proposition as the plan's supporters suggest.

If you want to support this plan kindly tell me why it's a good idea. Argue the merits. There are plenty of obvious flaws: How do we create a budget when a sizable part of the revenue is gone? Why is it necessary to make an end run around local voters? Why should wealthy county municipalities maintain their independence while the city itself would not? Why should school boundaries remain fixed and off the consolidation table when taxes are on the consolidation table? Why should services and obligations remain tied to their present districts when many of those same districts would lose local control of their revenue structure? There's a laundry list of concerns and problems. Counter that. Don't tell me it's this or nothing. That's patently and obviously false. (And really damned tedious.)

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PostMar 28, 2019#1088

"It is, quite frankly, absurd to aver that if this doesn't happen nothing ever will. "
Of course we can't predict the future. It's been 56 years since voters have had a chance to consider a consolidation plan. Given the present challenges and dysfunction, I think urgency is in order. I get the many who are benefiting from the current structure don't see it that way. Totally understandable that residents in Des Peres think it's great that non-resident shoppers pay for their trash service.
If this fails will BT endure and propose something different? idk. Will some other group emerge and take a different approach? idk I do know that STL-World Class City didn't go anywhere. Greater Gateway Alliance didn't go anywhere. StL Strong didn't go anywhere. And the Muni League punted after the Ferguson Commission report which was their moment to take the lead.
Their could be competing amendments on the ballot in 2020. Will be interesting.
https://www.stltoday.com/news/local/gov ... fc92e.html

"Things have already happened; county municipalities have voted themselves out of existence, the city passed a board reduction, municipalities have merged. This isn't speculation. It's history. Small steps, but real. And evidence that more steps are possible. "
Two disincorporations and one merger this decade. <1% of the city-county population. A city ward reduction plan that still hasn't happened and an effort to stop it, voter support be damned. The pace is woefully inadequate.

"There's political and popular support for many things independent of the plan: city reentry into the county,"
The Muni League endorsed this and has done nothing to make it happen. And if it were on the ballot we'd hear the same arguments about crime, racial dog whistles, taking on debt, loosing black elected officials, city is a mess, city is mismanaged, I got mine etc, with much less to show for the effort to get it passed.

"court reform,"
The fragments have been fighting this since day one and the pace has been woefully inadequate

and policing reform,
The fragments have been fighting this since day one.

"Many of the efficiencies of the plan could be realized without it: police department consolidations"
Certainly munis can do this, but they aren't at a pace that's necessary. What's the incentive when you can leverage fragmentation to get non-residents to pay for your PD?

" and tax pools, (Which, by the way, has also already been done. More than once. "
The legislature set up the sales tax pool, no local vote. It only affects a little bit of sales taxes, and to placate fragments, we have this point-of-sale/pool city system.

"If you want to support this plan kindly tell me why it's a good idea. Argue the merits. There are plenty of obvious flaws: How do we create a budget when a sizable part of the revenue is gone?"
You stop spending money on 55 police HQs. Don't pay 55 police chiefs. Don't run 81 courts. Buy stuff in bulk. Let employees retire and don't replace them. Don't let developers leverage fragmentation and issue fewer or less generous TIFs, tax abatements, and other incentives. Increase land productivity, or at least stop mandating it be low-productivity.

"Why is it necessary to make an end run around local voters?
To have one PD takes an amendment. It's unclear whether a BoF plan can and can't do to munis. It'll get sued to death. Having a local vote after the amendment seems reasonable to me. The author of the RFT piece says the amendment could require local support at the same time. I didn't realize that was possible.

"Why should wealthy county municipalities maintain their independence while the city itself would not?
Because BT listened and compromised. I guess it's possible, but seems awkward to have Metro City based downtown and then also the StL municipal district. Regardless areas can still set up SBDs and CIDs and TDDs to tax and spend hyper-locally, just like we already do within munis.

"Why should school boundaries remain fixed and off the consolidation table
That would take another amendment and would be an even harder sell than Metro City. School district could merge among themselves, but they aren't. The only one that happened lately was Wellston into Normandy which was done by the State Board of Education, no legislature vote, not local vote. Remember munis use price floors on housing and transportation not only to keep people out of the muni, but more importantly to keep them out of the school district. Then they can leverage fragmentation to access cheap labor living elsewhere to staff their sales tax golden geese so their munis don't need property taxes and thus can put more property tax into their schools.

"when taxes are on the consolidation table?
School taxes aren't, just municipal, because it's a plan that tackles municipal fragmentation.

Why should services and obligations remain tied to their present districts when many of those same districts would lose local control of their revenue structure?
Not all services and obligations. Their infrastructure liabilities, PD, Courts become Metro City's. The others remain because BT listened and compromised. Munis loose their sales taxes because of the TIF wars. EW Gateway pointed out how feckless it has been long ago. Of course it doesn't take this amendment to accomplish TIF reform, nor even a MOLeg bill, the munis could agree not to shift taxable sales around. That would be real leadership on the part of the Muni League, but nothing, the incentive patterns set up by fragmentation are too seductive.

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PostMar 31, 2019#1089

Here's my take: Are we too close to be objective? If the Koreas had a chance to merge, would we say, "Yeah, don't do it, since some body guards would lose their jobs in the North and taxes might go up in the South to pay for new roads." No. We'd probably say -- "Koreans -- wake up. This is for your grandchildren. It's a once in a lifetime chance. Don't blow it up over petty short-term imperfections. Germany did it. You can too."

https://missouricurrent.com/2019/03/25/ ... objective/

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PostApr 01, 2019#1090

gary kreie wrote:
Mar 31, 2019
Here's my take: Are we too close to be objective? If the Koreas had a chance to merge, would we say, "Yeah, don't do it, since some body guards would lose their jobs in the North and taxes might go up in the South to pay for new roads." No. We'd probably say -- "Koreans -- wake up. This is for your grandchildren. It's a once in a lifetime chance. Don't blow it up over petty short-term imperfections. Germany did it. You can too."

https://missouricurrent.com/2019/03/25/ ... objective/
So basically, Fear of Missing Out and Won't Somebody Think of the Children all rolled into one.

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PostApr 01, 2019#1091

Or maybe better to spend the next decade working to fix the bad parts of the deal than to hope a better deal is coming in the next decade. pretty sure the next one won't be perfect either...

If they can't convince a bunch of people who spend idle time dreaming about how this region can ove forward to support a somewhat flawed deal in order to take a major leap forward as a region then we should all probably just give up on the concept as a never gonna happen.

And yes it's for the children. Who else would it be for.

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PostApr 01, 2019#1092

STLEnginerd wrote:
Apr 01, 2019
Or maybe better to spend the next decade working to fix the bad parts of the deal than to hope a better deal is coming in the next decade. pretty sure the next one won't be perfect either...

If they can't convince a bunch of people who spend idle time dreaming about how this region can ove forward to support a somewhat flawed deal in order to take a major leap forward as a region then we should all probably just give up on the concept as a never gonna happen.

And yes it's for the children. Who else would it be for.
But the bold ^ is begging the question. There is no evidence - none - that the BT plan is a "major step forward" in almost any capacity whatsoever. And that becomes more evident every week.

Fear of Missing Out is a sales tactic, not a justification.

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PostApr 01, 2019#1093

One police dept
One muni court system
Sales tax pool that ends the sales tax chase
A regional perspective to development
A regional perspective to public works
Get everyone at the same table
Sounds like a major step forward to me

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PostApr 01, 2019#1094

I’ve written on this message board before that I’m considering a move from Kansas City to St. Louis.

I sincerely enjoy St. Louis more, as I think it’s a better city, and I think it has truly incredible potential. But the stagnation of the region has scared me into continually kicking that goal a little further down the road. “Maybe next year, or the year after, I’ll move to St. Louis,” I’ve been saying for years.

But now, I really do feel like St. Louis is turning a corner. The central corridor is booming, and it’s exciting to see developments working in tandem to change neighborhoods. The region feels like it’s about to get hot. A merger between the city and the county only seems to fuel that feeling, for both me and my wife.

It may mean absolutely nothing to St. Louisans that two outsiders, Kansas Citians no less, are able to view St. Louis as stronger, better, smarter, for being together as opposed to divided, but, as young professionals that have never lived in Greater St. Louis, I can assure you that it does. A city of 1.3 million can advertise itself, and get the attention it wants, much better than a city that is threatening to dip below 300,000. No merger plan is ever going to be perfect, and without amendments in the years following enactment.

Anyway, this year is almost assuredly the year that I move to St. Louis. My wife and I expect to bring our young, growing family to the city, and not the county, no later than September. If all goes well and we’re in St. Louis, we will be emphatically voting ‘yes’ for Better Together’s plan.

Successful merger or not, we are absolutely in love with St. Louis, and are hoping to see the city and region continue with its current momentum.

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PostApr 02, 2019#1095

quincunx wrote:
Apr 01, 2019
One police dept
One muni court system
Sales tax pool that ends the sales tax chase
A regional perspective to development
A regional perspective to public works
Get everyone at the same table
Sounds like a major step forward to me
That depends. The police department and court system seem like fairly small problems to me that can be (and are being) amended by outside forces anyway. They're only problems in so much as we spend more per officer or get worse officers. And while both may be true, I'm not at all convinced they're particularly important problems or true to anything like the degree BT implies. The court system is really only a problem when and if it's used to fund municipalities. And that's changing anyway, seeing as it's against existing state law. In reality, this won't end the sales tax chase. It's already moved beyond St. Louis County anyway. We already have a regional perspective to public works. This won't really add to that. We have BiState and MSD. The major roads are dealt with at a state level. We have the Zoo Museum Tax District. We have a regional arts council, regional economic organizations, RCGA, and so froth. They don't always work well, but . . . this won't fix that. Really. There's every reason to think the same "my neighborhood first" mentality will prevail, but with sharper teeth to make it stick. (Keep in mind, everyone complains that the current Board of Alderfolk are too focused on their neighborhoods in the city already. What on earth makes anyone think this will change one iota once the county has to vote to keep its own interests first and foremost?)

And the costs are potentially enormous: lost revenue, increasingly underfunded schools, more regional bickering over scarce tax dollars, increasingly paralyzed government. It might be possible to fix some things after the fact, but how many? And the biggest things: the dissolution of independent St. Louis City government and the sunsetting of the earnings tax, are most probably off the table. I'm very sorry. I'm not interested in a merger that breaks the city.

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PostApr 07, 2019#1096

So what what form of uniting do those opposed to the Better Together plan support? Status Quo piecemeal? City rejoins County? Doesn't seem to be helping Detroit. Is there even a competing plan out there? We can mod this plan later, but with no other plan, I see two more generations living with fragmentation if we do nothing now. Which is looking likely. We sound like Koreans who may oppose rejoining North and South because parking revenue may not be distributed fairly initially. I don't see Nashville clamoring to go to our system of regional government. We are the Birmingham of the Midwest.

https://www.nytimes.com/201...

NY Times says:
"Nashville started with advantages. But local leaders also made some smart decisions like merging the city and county government in the 1960s, allowing Nashville and its suburbs to work together rather than at cross-purposes."

and

"Mr. Sher would like Birmingham to follow Nashville in merging the city and county governments. He noted that Louisville, Ky., saw substantial growth after it did that in 2003."

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PostApr 07, 2019#1097

KansasCitian wrote:
Apr 01, 2019
I’ve written on this message board before that I’m considering a move from Kansas City to St. Louis.

I sincerely enjoy St. Louis more, as I think it’s a better city, and I think it has truly incredible potential. But the stagnation of the region has scared me into continually kicking that goal a little further down the road. “Maybe next year, or the year after, I’ll move to St. Louis,” I’ve been saying for years.

But now, I really do feel like St. Louis is turning a corner. The central corridor is booming, and it’s exciting to see developments working in tandem to change neighborhoods. The region feels like it’s about to get hot. A merger between the city and the county only seems to fuel that feeling, for both me and my wife.

It may mean absolutely nothing to St. Louisans that two outsiders, Kansas Citians no less, are able to view St. Louis as stronger, better, smarter, for being together as opposed to divided, but, as young professionals that have never lived in Greater St. Louis, I can assure you that it does. A city of 1.3 million can advertise itself, and get the attention it wants, much better than a city that is threatening to dip below 300,000. No merger plan is ever going to be perfect, and without amendments in the years following enactment.

Anyway, this year is almost assuredly the year that I move to St. Louis. My wife and I expect to bring our young, growing family to the city, and not the county, no later than September. If all goes well and we’re in St. Louis, we will be emphatically voting ‘yes’ for Better Together’s plan.

Successful merger or not, we are absolutely in love with St. Louis, and are hoping to see the city and region continue with its current momentum.
Glad to have you! Welcome to STL when you move! I'm glad to hear positive people like you still exist! ;)

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PostApr 07, 2019#1098

gary kreie wrote:
Apr 07, 2019
So what what form of uniting do those opposed to the Better Together plan support? Status Quo piecemeal? City rejoins County?
That's a good question. The more I think about it the more I think slow and careful is the right answer. Detroit is a darned interesting example. They seem a tempting comparison as they have suffered many of the same problems as we. There's a lot that's similar between our two cities, but there are also some significant differences. The economies and histories have been similar: French fur trading outposts grow into American industrial cities, bolstered by migration over the nineteenth and early twentieth centuries, only to be gutted by deindustrialization in the late twentieth century. Neither place has the sexy of mountains or beaches. Both are colder than people seem to like these days. Both are close enough to the optimal route between northeast and southwest to serve as useful nodes in the network. In short, the geographic and macroeconomic cases seem to be parallel. The histories aren't so different. Even the demographics, while different, show some obvious similarities. But the governments are quite different. Detroit is has been a part of Wayne County since the latter's inception in 1796. They have a "strong mayor" system and a quite small city council of only nine members. There's not much room for petty regionalism there, particularly since two of those members are "at large." And the current charter there has been in effect for forty years, through much of the history of Detroit's worst decline. So the parallel courses of St. Louis and Detroit probably have more to do with the things that are similar (geography and history) and less to do with the things that are different (government.)

In short, I believe the reality is that our own regional decline has a great deal to do with larger economic and demographic patterns: the shift south and west of national population, the move to the coasts, and the general consolidation of wealth in a handful of "sexy" places at the expense of everyone else. There's nothing we can do in local government to really fix that. That's big picture stuff. That doesn't mean we shouldn't make changes, but it does mean we shouldn't expect them to be the magic pill that will cure all that ails us. So I'm inclined to think we should be cautious with big structural changes. If it's something that allows us to use our resources more efficiently or effectively, then that's good. If it makes government more responsive to average citizens that is also good. If it does the reverse of this, then obviously it's not such a great idea. City reentry into the county would could offer some modest efficiencies. It shouldn't really effect how responsive the government is to the people. It shouldn't complicate the use of government resources. It's small, but it's potentially a good step.

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PostApr 08, 2019#1099

It's time St. Louis threw it's hat over the fence. Let's do this!

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PostApr 08, 2019#1100

St. Louisans that care about their city and its urban development incessantly whine about how the county and the city compete against each other, and how there are so many factions and fiefdoms within both that compete against each other, and how it has held the region back. And they're not wrong. It has.

Now, we have a plan in which those borders will disappear. We have a plan that consolidates the governments of St. Louis City and St. Louis County, and puts them both in downtown. With a unified purpose, I believe St. Louis would develop the downtown it deserves, and I believe that a stronger government leading a stronger downtown would mean a stronger region.

I'm an outsider. Even after I complete the move to St. Louis in the next 2-5 months, I'll be an outsider for a while yet. But I think a ton of St. Louisans fail to realize how good their city's bones are. There are so many historical cultural institutions and districts that make St. Louis a beautiful, beautiful place, and one that remains full of untapped potential. It is so exciting to see recent developments connect some stray dots across the city and bring some of these institutions together via exciting projects.

I believe in St. Louis. I believe in its future. I believe that this city is going to get white hot and that we're going to see it translate into the positive numbers we discuss on this site. And I want to be a part of it. I want to live in the old city and join a unified St. Louis in rapidly changing its trajectory and emerging as the world-class city I believe it can be.

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