For me again a lot hinges on whether county munis retain substantial powers like they do in Indy and Louisville.... and we'd have many more of them retained compared to those places. The legion Maryland Heights and Chesterfields and Wildwoods of the world would be free to continue their low-density, sprawl-inducing bullcrap while also getting to vote for the executive and council along with the yahoos living in unincorporated areas, collectively bringing their anti-city values to the consolidated table. Gotta axe those malicious munis; otherwise I'd prefer reentry.
I still think re-entry is the most likely. Then the earnings tax doesn't get as complicated, as well as other things.
That said, with the Louisville model the current county pretty much could run the current city however it wanted. Which might tip the scales a bit if that is how the county wants it.
If I understand Louisville correctly and it was implemented here, all (or most) of these county municipalities would still exist, but they would now be under the umbrella of St. Louis Metro (city), whatever you want to call it. But that entire metro would now vote for the mayor of St. Louis. So in theory the current county would have 75%ish of the say of what goes on in the city. They could vote Stenger..... the mayor and then just run the city/metro how they want on top of having their own little municipalites/whatever they are called in that setup.
I may have that wrong but that is how I understand it. I think some people think if it all becomes one city then the current city will have more power, but in this setup it would have less. Now you can argue if that is good or not, but that is the way I see it.
This might be the same thing Rainbow was getting at.
That said, with the Louisville model the current county pretty much could run the current city however it wanted. Which might tip the scales a bit if that is how the county wants it.
If I understand Louisville correctly and it was implemented here, all (or most) of these county municipalities would still exist, but they would now be under the umbrella of St. Louis Metro (city), whatever you want to call it. But that entire metro would now vote for the mayor of St. Louis. So in theory the current county would have 75%ish of the say of what goes on in the city. They could vote Stenger..... the mayor and then just run the city/metro how they want on top of having their own little municipalites/whatever they are called in that setup.
I may have that wrong but that is how I understand it. I think some people think if it all becomes one city then the current city will have more power, but in this setup it would have less. Now you can argue if that is good or not, but that is the way I see it.
This might be the same thing Rainbow was getting at.
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^ yup. Previous examples of large consolidation -- Indy, Jax, Lou, Nash -- allowed at least the larger county munis to retain a significant degree of independence but the citizens still get to vote for the city-county leader and council.
Again though a big difference here is the exempted population would be so much larger than the other cities, which largely had small outposts outside the city limits prior to consolidation and not the well-established municipalities all over the largely developed county here. If we truly follow the "Louisville" or really any other model it would be like Creve Couer and Crestwood and all those other countless county cities would continue to have their mayors and councils and powers but because they also get county services they'd also get to vote for the city-county leader and council representation. Meanwhile, the people in the old Saint Louis City give up their former autonomy. I just don't see the wisdom of that and would prefer reentry in these circumstances.
The alternative would be to attempt to do something truly radical and as far as I'm aware of not done anywhere else -- dissolving or at least taking away meaningful municipal powers -- from the County cities, a powerful force representing about 666,000 citizens. I think that would be the best policy goal but that would be extremely controversial and would be a brutal fight of that is what's proposed.
Edit: Also, under the other examples, we'd have a "consolidated" population of about 1.3M people but a "balance" population of about half that.... the roughly 300K current city population + the roughly 1/3 of the roughly 1M county population that is in unincorporated areas. It is this balance population of about 650,000 that would be used by the census and nationally as the true city population; it wouldn't make us a top ten city unless again we dissolved the county cities.
Again though a big difference here is the exempted population would be so much larger than the other cities, which largely had small outposts outside the city limits prior to consolidation and not the well-established municipalities all over the largely developed county here. If we truly follow the "Louisville" or really any other model it would be like Creve Couer and Crestwood and all those other countless county cities would continue to have their mayors and councils and powers but because they also get county services they'd also get to vote for the city-county leader and council representation. Meanwhile, the people in the old Saint Louis City give up their former autonomy. I just don't see the wisdom of that and would prefer reentry in these circumstances.
The alternative would be to attempt to do something truly radical and as far as I'm aware of not done anywhere else -- dissolving or at least taking away meaningful municipal powers -- from the County cities, a powerful force representing about 666,000 citizens. I think that would be the best policy goal but that would be extremely controversial and would be a brutal fight of that is what's proposed.
Edit: Also, under the other examples, we'd have a "consolidated" population of about 1.3M people but a "balance" population of about half that.... the roughly 300K current city population + the roughly 1/3 of the roughly 1M county population that is in unincorporated areas. It is this balance population of about 650,000 that would be used by the census and nationally as the true city population; it wouldn't make us a top ten city unless again we dissolved the county cities.
Why would dissolving the city and eliminating the only real source of revenue (the earnings tax) that pays for the services city residents need mean there would magically appear additional resources for an adequate urban planning infrastructure to serve the city? There's no question the City's planning department has little capacity now, which is largely because of limited funding. Clayton has a capable planning department because they are a small, wealthy, well-resourced municipality with an existing strong market for investment. Creating a unigov between the existing city and the unincorporated parts of the County will not somehow create those market conditions in the existing city or provide significant enough cost savings that would result in net revenue to the city. Rex Sinquefield thinks development and new residents would pour into the city if the earnings tax would be removed. There’s no evidence to support that belief, but much greater reason to predict conditions in the city will get significantly worse without the earnings tax to pay for basic services and the market for investment will suffer.goat314 wrote: ↑Dec 20, 2018I don't get the argument that some people are making that somehow a consolidated government is going to make the center city less urban. If anything it will infuse more money into having a legitimate city planning department. Right now the planning department is pretty much a joke, it's underfunded, makes half ass plans it can't implement and really has little power in the city as it is. If you look at places like Dallas, Charlotte, Nashville, etc. it looks like those cities have done a much better job than St. Louis making and completing urban redevelopment plans. Charlotte was actually able to get zoning revisions along it's light rail lines, and you are seeing a crapload of development take place near their transit stations. Also, a merger would make a true N-S line actually feasible, financially and politically. There will be no more bickering about what the next line will be. Stenger would not have been able to pull a bait and switch on Metrolink expansion if St. Louis was one political entity. Take a look at Clayton, they have a much more functional planning department than St. Louis City. They were actually able to plan and implement a downtown plan. Something that St. Louis City has yet to do. So the urban planning argument is really weak. If anything, a merged city and county would make St. Louis County more invested in the success of downtown. Maybe downtown would even get properly paved streets and crosswalks like Clayton has.
Without the earnings tax revenue, it will become necessary for suburban unigov taxpayers to subsidize basic municipal services and operations for the existing city. With that subsidy, political control over the existing city and policy will be held by those suburban taxpayers and political representatives. Even well-intentioned suburban taxpayers and politicians have no clue about how to address urban issues. The views of South County would determine policy in the existing city.
I will say, I’m perfectly on board with re-entry of the City of St. Louis into St. Louis County, retaining its status as a charter city with the earnings tax and the authority to set its own taxation, spending, and policy. Re-entry will bring some minor cost savings by eliminating some duplication of county-level offices and will encourage the same type of regional cooperation you identified regarding Metro. I’d also be glad to see some municipal consolidation in the County for the same reasons
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City isnt losing anything, we aren't being combined with unincorporated county. new type of gov structure will be created that will carry the the city name and be based in the city. Ill let BT announce the plan that their Task Force is still working on but the plan is a very good thing for the City, the county, the munis, the region and the state of missouri.
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^ I'll wait and see what their proposal is before I offer judgment, but I really hope it doesn't become something like Joe Schmo in Eureka, MO being able to dictate City leaders and policies. That just seems even more detrimental to the region's health than the current fragmentation, to me.
Still also leery about letting the state get involved, too (even though it's likely the only way to force anything related to reentry/merger for a while).
Still also leery about letting the state get involved, too (even though it's likely the only way to force anything related to reentry/merger for a while).
Biz Journal released the details of Better Together's plan:
It's a pretty big "meh" from me.The city of St. Louis and St. Louis County would be combined under a new entity via a sweeping plan to remake government in the region.
The Better Together task force, backed by Mayor Lyda Krewson and County Executive Steve Stenger, is set to reveal the proposed changes next month.
But several people briefed on the plan, which could change, outlined its contents to the Business Journal.
They said:
It wasn’t immediately clear how municipal debt and the city’s earnings tax would be handled, but Better Together has said previously that no government will get a “bailout.”
- Better Together would fund an operation to get signatures for a Constitutional amendment with the goal of placing it on a statewide ballot in November 2020. It would be promoted by a multimillion-dollar “yes” campaign, directed by Democratic operative Nancy Rice and financed by index-fund pioneer Rex Sinquefield and others, and all Missouri residents would get a say. If a majority of voters approve the amendment, within five or six weeks all current government offices in the city and county would be suspended and a transitional government would take over for about 15 months, pending elections.
- A new governmental entity — with a new charter — would be created in place of the current city of St. Louis and St. Louis County structures. It would encompass the current city and county land mass. The government would be based in downtown St. Louis.
- Elected officials would include: one mayor, one prosecuting attorney, one assessor and 33 council members.
- The county’s 88 municipalities would lose the ability to collect most sales taxes, have their own police departments and courts. What’s currently the city and county would have one police department and one court system. The municipalities, their officials and legislative bodies would still exist.
- Fire and school districts would be untouched.
Rice, executive director of Better Together, said in a statement Friday:
“The Better Together Task Force has not yet finalized its report. We expect completion and public release in January 2019 and look forward to sharing the details of their proposal at that time. Over the past 18 months the task force has hosted seven public forums, held hundreds of stakeholder meetings and received more than 1,200 online surveys in an effort to gather community input.”
A spokesman for Krewson declined to comment. A spokesman for Stenger did not immediately respond to requests for comment.
The plan is likely to face opposition from groups of voters in the city and county worried about local control of services and government jobs. The Municipal League, which represents many municipalities, and North County police departments figure to be part of that “no” coalition.
Proponents are poised to take a message to outstate voters that slow-growth St. Louis, the biggest driver of Missouri's economy, needs a boost. Sinquefield has funded other initiatives to change government, such as the successful 2010 state ballot initiative to force a vote every five years on the earnings tax in St. Louis and Kansas City.
The Better Together task force launched in June, led by Suzanne Sitherwood, president and CEO of St. Louis-based energy company Spire; Will Ross, associate dean of diversity and professor of medicine at Washington University; and Arindam Kar, partner at law firm Bryan Cave Leighton Paisner LLP. At that launch, Better Together, which is backed by the Sinquefield-bankrolled Missouri Council for a Better Economy, said overall spending for St. Louis’ municipal services grew 5 percent, or $119 million, in the past three years, to $2.5 billion annually. That includes the city, county, municipalities in the county and 23 fire districts.
The initiative comes as the St. Louis region was surpassed by Baltimore this year as the 20th largest metro area in the U.S.
They're wasting our time. If it doesn't do anything about school districts and small municipalities, it's not going to help the area within the current City of St. Louis once bit. We'll still have the same lousy schools where we had bad schools before, and we'll still have the same regional squabbling over everything, even if individual municipalities in St. Louis County lose their TIF ability with no sales taxing. I don't like living in Rex's experiments. I'll be voting no unless the "plan" is radically different than what has leaked out. We need to actually fix things, not just fix numbers.
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what would consolidating schools do? kids in the city would still go to city schools because thats where they live. the problem with the city schools isn't lack of money, for the most part (i think if we had 1 school district, for the schools that are in the city they would probably get less per student then now.) the biggest issues is the VERY high amount of poverty among city kids, fix that first and schools will get fixed.
Not to mention that this is consolidation City/County governments- school district aren’t part of that umbrella. Even the Ferguson report leaves schools untouched until further examination is done
Not to mention that this is consolidation City/County governments- school district aren’t part of that umbrella. Even the Ferguson report leaves schools untouched until further examination is done
I wonder how much money they spent to come up with such a terrible plan. I don't see City of County residents supporting this. I guess they will try to force it on us with votes from the rest of the state? Will probably be a disaster if it passes.
People always make it seem like the issue is the City schools have lack of money due to all the TIFs and property tax abatements. Is that not the case?dbInSouthCity wrote: ↑Dec 28, 2018what would consolidating schools do? kids in the city would still go to city schools because thats where they live. the problem with the city schools isn't lack of money, for the most part (i think if we had 1 school district, for the schools that are in the city they would probably get less per student then now.) the biggest issues is the VERY high amount of poverty among city kids, fix that first and schools will get fixed.
Not to mention that this is consolidation City/County governments- school district aren’t part of that umbrella. Even the Ferguson report leaves schools untouched until further examination is done
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Not sure why people are hung up on the county munis- w/o police, courts, PAs, and sales tax they’re effectively property tax funded CIDs. 90% of them would probably fold in the decade to follow.
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My issues with the plan are that it doesn't really address any of the actual problems of the current setup and, in my opinion, makes the regional government that much more ineffective. I reiterate one of the main issues I had with the plan from earlier: how is it at all a good thing if someone from the very periphery of St. Louis County (say, near Pacific, for example), has just as much say in who the Mayor of St. Louis (to be based in the actual city, no less) is as someone who lives on Washington Ave.? That makes no logical sense to me - it's not fair representation for either resident. Downtown is over 30 miles from the farthest (and fairly rural) reaches of STL County. Does the plan even account for that? Does it count actual 'towns' within the county, such as Eureka, as 'municipalities'? That would mean, should the plan as written go into effect, that Eureka would be forced to give up its police department and the ability to impose most taxes within its boundaries and be forced to rely on the 'St. Louis Police Department' for police services. Granted, the Eureka PD is currently supplemented by the County Police, but it seems bizarre to me, and would seem especially bizarre (and impersonal) to me if I were a Eureka resident, to have my police force bearing the name of a city 25 miles away and who my only experience with might very well be the occasional Cardinals/Blues game. I think the same sorts of issues would be run into as well if every school district would be merged into a single one.
What I'm leaning more towards at this point is more of a consolidation of some services into regional entities, but I really think the County and City need two separate governments. It makes more sense to me, for example, for a ballot measure to force most munis to give up their police departments to have one homogeneous, all-encompassing "STL County Police Department", while the City maintains the Metro PD. I wouldn't even mind combining all County Fire Departments into a similar "STL County Fire Department" (though that comes with a whole heap of issues as well). I think what should be focused on is simply more regional cooperation. Now, one can argue that this is best accomplished with a 'Unigov' type situation, but is that necessarily true? I just don't know. Maybe there should be some kind of a third, regional government created that nominally operates above the County and City but leaves most local administration to their respective entities? Is there a good example like that in the world/country?
To be perfectly honest, if this plan as is makes it on to the ballot in two years, I will definitely be voting 'No'. I'm also betting the sheer amount of lawsuits by various organizations brought about by this measure should it pass would stall any progress for quite some time anyway, and nullify anything "transitional" about the proposed transitional government. This really just reeks of Sinquefield - and until he and his organization(s) are out of the equation completely (I mean that in a non-sinister way), I don't feel comfortable with anything having to do with him.
Some kind of merger is needed, I think, but this one is not it. I hope the voters in other parts of the state feel the same way, though I fear the worst.
What I'm leaning more towards at this point is more of a consolidation of some services into regional entities, but I really think the County and City need two separate governments. It makes more sense to me, for example, for a ballot measure to force most munis to give up their police departments to have one homogeneous, all-encompassing "STL County Police Department", while the City maintains the Metro PD. I wouldn't even mind combining all County Fire Departments into a similar "STL County Fire Department" (though that comes with a whole heap of issues as well). I think what should be focused on is simply more regional cooperation. Now, one can argue that this is best accomplished with a 'Unigov' type situation, but is that necessarily true? I just don't know. Maybe there should be some kind of a third, regional government created that nominally operates above the County and City but leaves most local administration to their respective entities? Is there a good example like that in the world/country?
To be perfectly honest, if this plan as is makes it on to the ballot in two years, I will definitely be voting 'No'. I'm also betting the sheer amount of lawsuits by various organizations brought about by this measure should it pass would stall any progress for quite some time anyway, and nullify anything "transitional" about the proposed transitional government. This really just reeks of Sinquefield - and until he and his organization(s) are out of the equation completely (I mean that in a non-sinister way), I don't feel comfortable with anything having to do with him.
Some kind of merger is needed, I think, but this one is not it. I hope the voters in other parts of the state feel the same way, though I fear the worst.
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It's beginning to sound like Grone was right on the money.
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I lived in Nashville for many years. Technically I lived in a suburb with a different name and own sense of identity about 15 miles from downtown. It wasn't weird to vote for mayor of Nashville. Nor was it weird to see Nashville PD roll up. A few years later I moved to a rural edge of Davidson County, still Nashville, 20+ miles from downtown. Still not weird on either account. Nashville mayor and city council just took those people into account when making decisions. If anything it made those politicians less provincial and more inclusive.[how is it at all a good thing if someone from the very periphery of St. Louis County (say, near Pacific, for example), has just as much say in who the Mayor of St. Louis (to be based in the actual city, no less) is as someone who lives on Washington Ave.? That makes no logical sense to me - it's not fair representation for either resident. Downtown is over 30 miles from the farthest (and fairly rural) reaches of STL County. Does the plan even account for that? Does it count actual 'towns' within the county, such as Eureka, as 'municipalities'?
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I still think places like Chesterfield will fight the measure to the bitter end. Those sorts love to claim they're from "St. Louis" whenever they're talking about where they're from, but when it comes down to stepping up for the region, their mindsets instantly regress about 1000 years into straight-up feudalism. To me, it makes much more sense to keep a separate County and Metro police force. That'd be fairly analogous to L.A., where there's the LAPD and the LA Sheriff's Dept., the latter of which essentially operates as a countywide police force for greater L.A. County.
Not to mention I still can't stand the thought of King Rex having a hand in all of this. It just feels like there's an ulterior motive to all of this.
Not to mention I still can't stand the thought of King Rex having a hand in all of this. It just feels like there's an ulterior motive to all of this.
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Trololzilla wrote: ↑Dec 29, 2018I still think places like Chesterfield will fight the measure to the bitter end. Those sorts love to claim they're from "St. Louis" whenever they're talking about where they're from, but when it comes down to stepping up for the region, their mindsets instantly regress about 1000 years into straight-up feudalism. To me, it makes much more sense to keep a separate County and Metro police force. That'd be fairly analogous to L.A., where there's the LAPD and the LA Sheriff's Dept., the latter of which essentially operates as a countywide police force for greater L.A. County.
Not to mention I still can't stand the thought of King Rex having a hand in all of this. It just feels like there's an ulterior motive to all of this.
People in eureka also vote for a governor that’s a 120 miles away to the west and a president that’s 900 miles to the northeast.
We have a chance to wake up the day after 2020 elections being the 9th largest city in the country, improve in all host of other rankings and that matters. Improve reputation and the rest will follow
As far as schools go. There was never discussion about schools being part of this, that was always understood to be next since schools weren’t part of the city’s or county’s umbrella of gov.
I'm hoping someone can give me a Cliff's Notes version of the plan.
Would City and County be considered one municipality for statistical purposes?
How much autonomy would, say, Clayton have regarding taxes, building codes, etc?
Is the plan easily amended in the future?
Can school consolidation be addressed later?
Would City and County be considered one municipality for statistical purposes?
How much autonomy would, say, Clayton have regarding taxes, building codes, etc?
Is the plan easily amended in the future?
Can school consolidation be addressed later?
No matter what our city size ranking is, it doesn't change anything. So we wake up in a few years and live in the 9th biggest city in the country. What does it matter? It doesn't change anything. I couldn't name the 9th biggest city now in the country. New York, LA, Chicago, Houston? after that no clue. It might move us off some most dangerous lists, but again, it doesn't change anything day to day. It doesn't mean crime is all of the sudden different because we aren't on a list. An improved reputation (which I wonder how much of a difference it actually would make to people outside STL) isn't going to do much in the grand scheme of things if the leadership doesn't change.
My question is what does this really accomplish and will it make things better? I am not worried about rankings or lists.
I just really need to wrap my head around this better. I would assume it means a full overhaul of the police department. It won't be the city police just expanding its boundaries. County and city would have to combine police forces. Personally, I would rather see police headquartered in Clayton since it is more central but I guess they could just have a headquarters downtown and an outpost in Clayton.
Overall, I still would rather see the city re-enter the county and then the county start working on combining municipalities to a manageable number first before we try some huge metro setup. I think there are some smart ways to start combining things and without doing it in one huge swoop. I just don't have faith anyone here can run a big metro (or even transition to one) when they can barely handle their smaller ones. BUT I guess in the proposed setup we could hopefully get the best of the area all together, instead of it being segmented everywhere.
I just can't see how a 15 month transition is enough time to figure out all the issues that will arise. I think there is no way this passes if it is just a STL metro thing but statewide who knows. I would guess most of the state doesn't even care, but could be influenced easily by Rex's ads.
I don't think the people in the city would pass it because it basically gives the county all the power over the city. I don't think the county will pass it because they won't want to give up that much control at the municipal level (even though they would really have more control over the region).
Let's say this happens in 2020. Who do you think gets elected Mayor? Stenger? I hope not, but I can't see any city candidates getting elected with the county get 3/4 of the vote.
My question is what does this really accomplish and will it make things better? I am not worried about rankings or lists.
I just really need to wrap my head around this better. I would assume it means a full overhaul of the police department. It won't be the city police just expanding its boundaries. County and city would have to combine police forces. Personally, I would rather see police headquartered in Clayton since it is more central but I guess they could just have a headquarters downtown and an outpost in Clayton.
Overall, I still would rather see the city re-enter the county and then the county start working on combining municipalities to a manageable number first before we try some huge metro setup. I think there are some smart ways to start combining things and without doing it in one huge swoop. I just don't have faith anyone here can run a big metro (or even transition to one) when they can barely handle their smaller ones. BUT I guess in the proposed setup we could hopefully get the best of the area all together, instead of it being segmented everywhere.
I just can't see how a 15 month transition is enough time to figure out all the issues that will arise. I think there is no way this passes if it is just a STL metro thing but statewide who knows. I would guess most of the state doesn't even care, but could be influenced easily by Rex's ads.
I don't think the people in the city would pass it because it basically gives the county all the power over the city. I don't think the county will pass it because they won't want to give up that much control at the municipal level (even though they would really have more control over the region).
Let's say this happens in 2020. Who do you think gets elected Mayor? Stenger? I hope not, but I can't see any city candidates getting elected with the county get 3/4 of the vote.
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Yes and not just statistical but it would be governed under one roofframer wrote: ↑Dec 29, 2018I'm hoping someone can give me a Cliff's Notes version of the plan.
Would City and County be considered one municipality for statistical purposes?
How much autonomy would, say, Clayton have regarding taxes, building codes, etc?
Is the plan easily amended in the future?
Can school consolidation be addressed later?
I would say munis would effectively become CIDs after losing police, courts and sales tax. I’d imagine most would fold by end of decade.
As easy as amending the city charter I assume.
Both BT and Ferguson commission left schools alone because they need to be studied as a stand alone. Consolidating schools doesn’t have the same effect. Kids in the city are still going to the same schools. You aren’t all the sudden going to school in wildwood and living in 63116 or any other city zip code. Fix poverty in the city and schools will get better
Someone else mentioned that perception doesn’t fix anything. It fixes a lot. It’s half the work. And the other half can be done by having more resources that this will give us
Things do like NS metrolink become more viable because the 1% sales tax for metro that the city and county currently collects is controlled by one entity and its spent in one entity.
Gotta love this thread.
Before plan released: "We've got to end the City-County split, a.s.a.p.!", "We have to think as a region!", "These rankings are royally screwing us!".
After plan released: "What!! Someone living in Wildwood will have as much of a voice in how the region is run as me???? Are you kidding? Terrible plan!", "Rankings don't ACTUALLY matter!".
Never change, StL, never change. This is part of the reason I'm glad the state is going to ram this down your throats, you people will never pull off a massive improvement like this on your own.
Before plan released: "We've got to end the City-County split, a.s.a.p.!", "We have to think as a region!", "These rankings are royally screwing us!".
After plan released: "What!! Someone living in Wildwood will have as much of a voice in how the region is run as me???? Are you kidding? Terrible plan!", "Rankings don't ACTUALLY matter!".
Never change, StL, never change. This is part of the reason I'm glad the state is going to ram this down your throats, you people will never pull off a massive improvement like this on your own.
50 police depts to one
80 muni courts to one
Two state circuits to one (less jury duty!)
Get rid of the city's county depts
End the sales tax chase
Keep city hall as city hall
Sounds like a big step in the right direction
Curios to know what powers the munis will retain. Zoning is a big one.
What of the city's water dept?
I guess there wasn't much complaint about fire service so they're leaving it alone.
80 muni courts to one
Two state circuits to one (less jury duty!)
Get rid of the city's county depts
End the sales tax chase
Keep city hall as city hall
Sounds like a big step in the right direction
Curios to know what powers the munis will retain. Zoning is a big one.
What of the city's water dept?
I guess there wasn't much complaint about fire service so they're leaving it alone.
If this plan is adopted what perception changes?dbInSouthCity wrote: ↑Dec 29, 2018
Someone else mentioned that perception doesn’t fix anything. It fixes a lot. It’s half the work. And the other half can be done by having more resources that this will give us
People in West County now think downtown is all of the sudden safe, if they currently don't think it is?
People in Denver now think of STL differently and are going to start visiting here all of the sudden?
I would argue even if it changes some it isn't anywhere near "half" the work. I am not sure it is 5% of the work.
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^^ not arguing for or against this, but would it make sense to consolidate government in Clayton rather than downtown given that Clayton is more central to the merged region?
re Denver and other outsiders: yes. they'll see St. Louis as healthier and less Podunk because of the larger population, and less dangerous because of the diluted crime stats. most people don't dig into the details like the people reading this forum. Just the news cycle about a new cooperative St. Louis region will generate great publicity. St. Louis' reputation will improve quickly, and that improved reputation will rub off on the locals. but locals will really come around once the merger starts bearing fruit in terms of improved performance.People in West County now think downtown is all of the sudden safe, if they currently don't think it is?
People in Denver now think of STL differently and are going to start visiting here all of the sudden?