Yeah sounds to me the thing called "St. Louis" would have about 630,000 people. But the jurisdiction of a true St Louis Metropolitan Police Dept would cover 1.3M people.
I think a bigger concern for county and city are the numerous insolvent munis. Consider how much deferred infrastructure maintenance costs that have piled up given that they've had to ticket people to death just to meet payroll. If they disincorporate all those liabilities fall on the county now (or the new bigger St. Louis if a merger plan passes). IIRC St. George had ~$1.5M in street maintenance pending which was one factor in encouraging its dissolution. And Manchester and Bellefontaine Neighbors recently passed big bond issues for street maintenance. Thanks to fragmentation we don't know how much more is out there. At least we'll be throwing away less money running all these towns plus some assets could be sold off and can shift that to working on those infra liabilities.
There may be deferred maintenance in munis, but it almost certainly pales in comparison, at least regarding street condition, to County streets. Have you driven down Hanley or Big Bend from I-64 recently? Indescribably bad. And these are THE major north-south thoroughfares in the area.quincunx wrote: ↑Jan 06, 2019I think a bigger concern for county and city are the numerous insolvent munis. Consider how much deferred infrastructure maintenance costs that have piled up given that they've had to ticket people to death just to meet payroll. If they disincorporate all those liabilities fall on the county now (or the new bigger St. Louis if a merger plan passes). IIRC St. George had ~$1.5M in street maintenance pending which was one factor in encouraging its dissolution. And Manchester and Bellefontaine Neighbors recently passed big bond issues for street maintenance. Thanks to fragmentation we don't know how much more is out there. At least we'll be throwing away less money running all these towns plus some assets could be sold off and can shift that to working on those infra liabilities.
The libertarian county executive candidate even posted a video that showed (in part) the condition of streets where county maintenance ends and muni maintenance begins: https://www.facebook.com/kasoff4exec/videos/ (see Episode I)
Oh yeah. Clayton west of the city limits is terrible too. A consequence of the other thing bankrupting us in addition to fragmentation- spread-out development patterns that take lots more infrastructure to serve.
Stltoday - Messenger: It's time to undo the 'splitting and hacking' of St. Louis and put it back together
https://www.stltoday.com/news/local/col ... 91c4f.html
https://www.stltoday.com/news/local/col ... 91c4f.html
So the plan is out!
https://www.stltoday.com/news/local/gov ... 5f60b.html
Pretty much in line with what was leaked to the press prior to this, and the comment section is already overrun with suburbanites screeching about "permanent Democratic governance" and the like.
The one interesting note is that the plan is for the City Earnings Tax to sunset after 10 years while in the meantime being used to pay down the City's debt and other obligations. Guess we know why Rex is on board!
https://www.stltoday.com/news/local/gov ... 5f60b.html
Pretty much in line with what was leaked to the press prior to this, and the comment section is already overrun with suburbanites screeching about "permanent Democratic governance" and the like.
The one interesting note is that the plan is for the City Earnings Tax to sunset after 10 years while in the meantime being used to pay down the City's debt and other obligations. Guess we know why Rex is on board!
Well, suburbanites aren't really known for their nuance. They're also apparently pretty ignorant on their own voting records. St. Louis County hasn't voted to elect a Republican for POTUS since 1988 and there hasn't been a Republican County Executive since 1991. The only real reliable area for Republicans in St. Louis County is West County and it's also the least populated. St. Louis County and the majority of it's environs have been under "permanent Democratic governance" for at least the last 20 years.
Also, does anyone else see the cognitive dissonance in STL area Republicans who are desperately gearing up for a fight to...save a bunch of duplicate government jobs that do nothing but suck hard earned taxpayer dollars out of St. Louisans pockets? You'd think they'd be on the other side here LOL.
Ironically, I think transforming this into a partisan fight within St. Louis would not end well for conservatives in St. Louis County, as they mostly tend to lose those fights when they are framed that way. Still, the 1.3 million people in the City-County are not the only people who are going to be voting on this, so it is really hard to speculate how the politics will develop when there has been little to no public polling on the matter in the recent past, especially not anything at the statewide level.
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And I'm already tired of the journalism.
Basically headlines of "City and County Merger Proposed, St. Louis Instantly Becomes 9th Largest City" and content like "it would change the crime stats".
The thing that is driving me insane is that's how our local media is even calling it. It does the soul of this plan no favors. It plays right into the opposition's hearts for why they already oppose it.
Seriously, where are the writers who are doing any investigative op-ed pieces on this? There's more to the BT plan than just bloating population for the sake of city ranking or crime statistics. There are steps hopefully taken as the merger precipitates that actually solve the crime issue. Steps that bolster economic growth and distribute services to those who need them most.
As it stands, BT has done a sh*t job of marketing this. And I think it's a fatal flaw for them.
Basically headlines of "City and County Merger Proposed, St. Louis Instantly Becomes 9th Largest City" and content like "it would change the crime stats".
The thing that is driving me insane is that's how our local media is even calling it. It does the soul of this plan no favors. It plays right into the opposition's hearts for why they already oppose it.
Seriously, where are the writers who are doing any investigative op-ed pieces on this? There's more to the BT plan than just bloating population for the sake of city ranking or crime statistics. There are steps hopefully taken as the merger precipitates that actually solve the crime issue. Steps that bolster economic growth and distribute services to those who need them most.
As it stands, BT has done a sh*t job of marketing this. And I think it's a fatal flaw for them.
I'm all for the re-entry and even merger, however I don't like the crime dilution reason either. Regardless of per capita, North City and pockets of South City will still be very dangerous. Chicago has 500+ homicides for a city of 2.8M and people have a horrible perception even though PER CAPITA the rate is low. Boston and San Francisco have LESS city limit square miles than STL and have significantly less homicides. Divorced or combined there will still be a dominance of shootings on the nightly news.
To me it's pushing aside a very real problem and if I were a resident in one of those dangerous areas I'd feel left out. I agree that padding our population doesn't do us real favors either to most educated people, however if it changes perception then by all means.
To me it's pushing aside a very real problem and if I were a resident in one of those dangerous areas I'd feel left out. I agree that padding our population doesn't do us real favors either to most educated people, however if it changes perception then by all means.
The full report from BTSTL is here: https://static1.squarespace.com/static/ ... +Final.pdf
It's 160 pages, but it's worth the time to dig into it in order to have a fully formed opinion re: the recommendations
-RBB
It's 160 pages, but it's worth the time to dig into it in order to have a fully formed opinion re: the recommendations
-RBB
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While I agree, the motive of the 'merger' should not be dilution of stats, that is just putting our city/county on a fair playing field with other similar cities that dilute their stats into a larger county. Let's be frank. The perception issues are a huge problem for STL nationally. To get ourselves removed from the negative rankings will be a plus. I actually believe a merged police force is a must regardless. A force of 3500 officers working as one lean, mean machine should actually help crime IMO. Right now, you have 2 large departments in close proximity, not working together much. Get the right people in charge, then merge PDs and work to fight crime as one unit like most cities do. I think that eventually, once fully merged, the new larger PD will noticeably reduce crime in our region. Of course there will still be crime, but a streamlined PD will really allow the force to more effectively police the region.
If anything, the Better Together plan gets people talking, gets people taking action and gets people to realize, no matter how it happens, this region needs to change. If you love this city, want it to flourish for generations to come, we have to adapt and change for the better, even if this transition has some speedbumps along the way. We are a region that resists change, so there will be roadblocks and major resistance. I do think this is the first step in the process, that will eventually reshape the region.... FINALLY. It just might take Better Together or whomever leads this charge, to retool or tweak the plan as it sits today. This plan as it sits today, will not likely look the same, once it is put in front of the voters.
If anything, the Better Together plan gets people talking, gets people taking action and gets people to realize, no matter how it happens, this region needs to change. If you love this city, want it to flourish for generations to come, we have to adapt and change for the better, even if this transition has some speedbumps along the way. We are a region that resists change, so there will be roadblocks and major resistance. I do think this is the first step in the process, that will eventually reshape the region.... FINALLY. It just might take Better Together or whomever leads this charge, to retool or tweak the plan as it sits today. This plan as it sits today, will not likely look the same, once it is put in front of the voters.
The only people that have a poor perception of Chicago because of crime are conservatives that have never been to Chicago. Outside of Fox News or the White House, I don't really know anyone that craps on Chicago because of crime. I also haven't heard anyone say the "reason" we are doing this is because crime stats. Getting STL off the most dangerous cities list is just a little icing on the cake, in my opinion. The reason for this merger proposal to fix this hodgepodge of bullsh*t STL has now. Crime, poverty, infrastructure, racial inequity, and all the other issues that plague St. Louis would be far easier to fix as a unified government instead of this embarrassing collection greedy municipalities that have no real interest in addressing the regions problems. No one said shootings would disappear because of a merger, but I can assure they will not stop and crime won't come down in the least if we just maintain the status quo.cteclipse wrote: ↑Jan 29, 2019I'm all for the re-entry and even merger, however I don't like the crime dilution reason either. Regardless of per capita, North City and pockets of South City will still be very dangerous. Chicago has 500+ homicides for a city of 2.8M and people have a horrible perception even though PER CAPITA the rate is low. Boston and San Francisco have LESS city limit square miles than STL and have significantly less homicides. Divorced or combined there will still be a dominance of shootings on the nightly news.
To me it's pushing aside a very real problem and if I were a resident in one of those dangerous areas I'd feel left out. I agree that padding our population doesn't do us real favors either to most educated people, however if it changes perception then by all means.
And yeah, I'm of the opinion that being the 9th largest city in the country would be pretty bad ass. I've lived outside of St. Louis for the last decade or so and all anyone really ever mentions to me when I tell people where I'm from is crime and depopulation. I'm all for changing that national perception while the new government goes to work on the problems at home. Can't be any worse than the way it's done now...
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The sales tax streamlining, TIF reform, and savings in local government expenditures is a major and under-reported aspect of the BT plan.
3 of 10 wealthiest St Louis County cities have no property tax because they rely entirely on sales tax?
$2 billion in TIFs?
$1.2 million for city attorneys?
$5.7 million for city councils and city managers?
That's the big stuff that should be pushed out, not the dilution of crime stats and 10th largest city stuff.
3 of 10 wealthiest St Louis County cities have no property tax because they rely entirely on sales tax?
$2 billion in TIFs?
$1.2 million for city attorneys?
$5.7 million for city councils and city managers?
That's the big stuff that should be pushed out, not the dilution of crime stats and 10th largest city stuff.
And yet that is all I hear the opposition b**** about. That and the city debt and credit rating. There is a lot of ignorant misinformation going around and spreading like wildfire through social media. And this is all aside from the "I gots mines" crowd that want the plan to go the hell away.urban_dilettante wrote: ↑Jan 29, 2019i mean, this gets talked about a lot, but it's hardly the main impetus for the merger.
No one seems to have optics for taking a breath and doing their own research. To listen to anyone. This was the first step. Hopefully it begins fruitful dialogue rather than sow even deeper division between city and county.
At the same time, what I read on social media isn't the truth, or even consensus. I met a few older ladies from St. Charles and Wentzville a couple months ago who were all on board with it. Perhaps it's just the kneejerks I come across who haven't done their own due diligence, whether that be out of desire to blissfully ignore the reality of inequality and red tape in this region, or simply don't care to change the status quo because it has worked fine for them. There are hundreds of thousands of other souls in this region that need help. That's a lot of people who could benefit from this.
Of course they are. For purposes of consolidation, they have nothing to lose. They won't have Stenger as Metro Mayor. May as well consider them outstate. It's why BT wants to push this to Missourah for a vote; kneejerks are more than likely to say "yes" to any ballot initiative.
I think it was this thread where I said this, but I suspect there is a silent majority, not a big one necessarily, but maybe just enough. While the opinions of those in Wentzville may not carry a lot of water because they don't have anything to lose I seem to hear a lot of antidotes like this. There was a BJ poll last month when the initial details leaked and 65% of respondents backed the merger, not scientific, but I wouldn't have expected that from BJ readers. I also recall a poll from several years ago in the BJ that asked what the most pressing issue facing the region was and a large majority listed city/county consolidation.bwcrow1s wrote: ↑Jan 29, 2019At the same time, what I read on social media isn't the truth, or even consensus. I met a few older ladies from St. Charles and Wentzville a couple months ago who were all on board with it. Perhaps it's just the kneejerks I come across who haven't done their own due diligence, whether that be out of desire to blissfully ignore the reality of inequality and red tape in this region, or simply don't care to change the status quo because it has worked fine for them. There are hundreds of thousands of other souls in this region that need help. That's a lot of people who could benefit from this.
And on a personal level, many of the folks I know in West County, where you'd least expect it, have even said they support consolidation. One put it as "I don't want to, but we have to do something." I think the winds are starting to change. There hasn't been a real attempt at this since 1987. Lots and lots have changed since then. Social media is a cesspool, but represents a very small fraction of the population's overall opinion.
I agree with others here that the launch so to speak was pretty ham-fisted and could have been better. They also need to push some of these other details that seem to be getting ignored over the crime/population ranking chatter. I also think a bigger effort needs to be made explaining why this has to be done at state level. There was a condescending editorial in the KC Star about how it shouldn't be up to Missouri to decide St. Louis' fate. But they framed it as state legislators pushing this on St. Louis. Totally ignoring the fact that to create a "Metro Government" requires a change to the State Constitution which requires a vote of the whole state.
Either way, the release leaves a lot to be desired, but the plan itself has a lot to like...it's going to be a wild couple of years.
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I don't know. I keep looking into this and liking it less the further I dig. All the municipalities will be preserved . . . except one. (They never mention that.) There will be no debt transfer. The "St. Louis Municipal Corporation" will remain responsible for all previous City of St. Louis, and all funds to pay this will come from taxes collected inside its boundaries. But the earnings tax will be phased out over ten years. The school districts won't change. But Metro PD (already more efficient and effective than any other PD in the region) will be rolled in with county PD and every other piddly little department in the county. You know what? I am utterly unconvinced. If you want to try this experiment do it without the city. Sell it to the county. Just the county. Start there. If you can make that work then we'll talk. That's where all the savings from duplications and inefficiencies will be found. That's where you can get extra revenue. That's where you can eliminate the worst of the traffic court as revenue stream troubles. This looks like some kind of sneaky plan to wipe St. Louis off the map much more than anything else to me. You can't sell this foul smelling thing to me unless and until it treats every municipality in the region in exactly the same way. Including the only one anyone from outside the area actually knows.
I think it is a bad deal as well in its current form. I'm opposed as of right now and am waiting to hear back from Better Together for answers to my questions whose answers aren't found in that document. I think the planning and development approach is wrong as it is basically another version of Nashville or Indy's and their plans have pushed the poor to the far-flung parts of town as house prices skyrocketed. I personally think crime will rise as a part to this as there will be one prosecutor, which can be highly political, will be deciding on criminal cases with the courts, In addition to this, I have a feeling a ton of the cops will be put in more dangerous areas causing crime to come around to the safer areas and form a game of chase. Next up, I don't want Steve Stenger being the first "Metro Mayor". We in the current City didn't vote for him and he barely won by the skin of his teeth in 2014 and in the Primaries in 2018. Plus, he's corrupt as we have seen in some new stories done on him. A "head of government" till 2023symphonicpoet wrote: ↑Jan 30, 2019I don't know. I keep looking into this and liking it less the further I dig. All the municipalities will be preserved . . . except one. (They never mention that.) There will be no debt transfer. The "St. Louis Municipal Corporation" will remain responsible for all previous City of St. Louis, and all funds to pay this will come from taxes collected inside its boundaries. But the earnings tax will be phased out over ten years. The school districts won't change. But Metro PD (already more efficient and effective than any other PD in the region) will be rolled in with county PD and every other piddly little department in the county. You know what? I say no. Absolutely not. If you want to try this experiment do it without the city. Sell it to the county. Just the county. Nobody else. Start there. If you can make that work then we'll talk. That's where all the savings from duplications and inefficiencies will be found. That's where you can get extra revenue. That's where you can eliminate the worst of the traffic court as revenue stream troubles. This looks like some kind of horrid plan to wipe St. Louis off the map much more than anything else to me. No. I'm done. I am opposed. You can't sell this sack of stinking refuse to me unless and until it treats every municipality in the region in exactly the same way.
. We should have an election for a transitional mayor when and if this happens before moving forward on implementing the plan. In addition to all of this, I think it should be decided by St. Louis City and County. There are two ideas I like...
- Jamilah Nasheed's plan that would make this happen if 60% of the electorate in the City and County approve of it.
- My idea of only running ads and pushing the vote in the City and County while leaving the outstate areas in the dark. This goes for the "for" and "oppose" campaigns.
Saying this on my website caused me a lot of flack and I honestly don't care. It's my opinion and I'm sticking with it until a revised plan, which I am sure will come before 2020, and my questions are answered.
Chesterfield wants to form its own county to avoid Better Together. (fox2now.com)
And what name will this new county be called? hmmmm I could think of a few choice collection of words
And what name will this new county be called? hmmmm I could think of a few choice collection of words
I see no downside to Chesterfield extracting itself from St. Louis. Seems like a win-win to me in every way.
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