The Shannon's site has some hair on it-- for one, what is currently being marketed for sale is a ground lease. You'd be buying whatever term is left on the ground lease. Anyone wanting to go vertical would also likely want/need to buy the land, which increases your total acquisition costs quite a bit. Secondly, some Cardinals and/or Cordish related entity has a height restriction on the site. I'd imagine them waiving this restriction would take both a monetary payout and a guarantee of limited competition.chriss752 wrote: ↑Apr 07, 2018The Mike Shannon’s site is a prime location for a residential/retail building mix. Doesn’t have to be tall but demand is there for residential near the Gateway Mall and BPV.TCB wrote:^agreed. Also curious about the old Mike Shannon’s building. That would be an interesting spot with BPV on one side and Kiener plaza and 7th street beautification.
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^ Comes to mind that perhaps Cordish/Cards just might be the ones to buy that and go high.... it's a prime location for a tower that could compliment BPV.
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^Would Cordish and the Cardinals be in the market for more land right now? I can't really foresee them buying until they've filled phase two and have a solid idea of what they want for phase three. And even then, would they be willing to pay much of a premium? It's a decent location, but nothing to what they've already got. I'd like to see someone develop it, but maybe some things will need to happen first. And I'd be more inclined to guess it will be someone else.
Way back in late 2016 Mike Shannon was trying to sell, and he was trying to get the height restriction lifted because he said that was making it difficult to find a buyer. The Post-Dispatch reported back on 12/16/2016:
-RBB
I can't find anything showing that actually happened, though. I'll keep digging as I have the time.LCRA’s board is scheduled to consider at its meeting Tuesday a resolution to do away with the restriction. An LCRA document accompanying the resolution notes that through “a complex set of transactions,” the agency is among entities with interests in the affected properties.
Under the resolution, the 35-foot height limit would be ended for residential, office and hotel uses at 620 Market.
“Ancillary food, beverage and retail uses” also would be allowed but only on the first floor of a permitted building on the site, according to the resolution.
-RBB
So the resolution was in fact on the agenda for the Tuesday, 12/13/16 LCRA board meeting:rbb wrote: ↑Apr 11, 2018Way back in late 2016 Mike Shannon was trying to sell, and he was trying to get the height restriction lifted because he said that was making it difficult to find a buyer. The Post-Dispatch reported back on 12/16/2016:
I can't find anything showing that actually happened, though. I'll keep digging as I have the time.LCRA’s board is scheduled to consider at its meeting Tuesday a resolution to do away with the restriction. An LCRA document accompanying the resolution notes that through “a complex set of transactions,” the agency is among entities with interests in the affected properties.
Under the resolution, the 35-foot height limit would be ended for residential, office and hotel uses at 620 Market.
“Ancillary food, beverage and retail uses” also would be allowed but only on the first floor of a permitted building on the site, according to the resolution.
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And the meeting minutes show it was approved:21. CIVIC CENTER AREA
Alderman Jack Coatar / 7th Ward
RESOLUTION NO. 16-LCRA-10080 - RESOLUTION AUTHORIZING RELEASE FROM A
DEED OF TRUST OF A BUILDING HEIGHT RESTRICTION FOR PROPERTY IN THE
CIVIC CENTER REDEVELOPMENT AREA (Leslye Mitchell-Yancey)
So based on that there's no more height restriction, correct?RESOLUTION NO. 16-LCRA-10080 - RESOLUTION AUTHORIZING RELEASE FROM A DEED OF
TRUST OF A BUILDING HEIGHT RESTRICTION FOR PROPERTY IN THE CIVIC CENTER
REDEVELOPMENT AREA (Leslye Mitchell-Yancey)
Leslye Mitchell Yancey presented the Resolution to the Board. After discussion, Chair Goodson called for a motion
to approve. Commissioner Anderson moved to approve, Commissioner McBride seconded; request for previous
roll was made and hearing no objections the motion passed with all Commissioners present (Goodson, Timm, Jones,
Anderson, McBride) voting Aye.
-RBB
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Mike Shannon's site is eventually going to be something big. In the meantime I wouldn't mind if it got torn down and turned into surface parking on a interim basis. I'm no fan of surface parking, just seems better than a rotting two story building that's just waiting to be torn down anyways.
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I think the problem would b if you turn it into parking which is revenue generating then there is less compulsion to actually build on it. If it got really bad, I suppose you could make it greenspace.GoHarvOrGoHome wrote: ↑Apr 11, 2018Mike Shannon's site is eventually going to be something big. In the meantime I wouldn't mind if it got torn down and turned into surface parking on a interim basis. I'm no fan of surface parking, just seems better than a rotting two story building that's just waiting to be torn down anyways.
I think the only plus side to that would be taking a small hit out of a future developer's pocket for the demo.
I agree on the parking though. Maybe more discouraging to future development. This building does suck though.
I agree on the parking though. Maybe more discouraging to future development. This building does suck though.
Seeing the city hasn't has much surface parking turn into something else, I would be weary of it staying surface parking also. This is better location than most surface parking but still I wouldn't be a fan.STLEnginerd wrote: ↑Apr 12, 2018I think the problem would b if you turn it into parking which is revenue generating then there is less compulsion to actually build on it. If it got really bad, I suppose you could make it greenspace.GoHarvOrGoHome wrote: ↑Apr 11, 2018Mike Shannon's site is eventually going to be something big. In the meantime I wouldn't mind if it got torn down and turned into surface parking on a interim basis. I'm no fan of surface parking, just seems better than a rotting two story building that's just waiting to be torn down anyways.
I would argue that green space in a downtown full of green space is the worst outcome and agree with your first thought. Green space will most likely reverts to pubic non-paying tax rolls. Which history has shown that very little gets built and in fact adds a cost to maintain on top of it.STLEnginerd wrote: ↑Apr 12, 2018I think the problem would b if you turn it into parking which is revenue generating then there is less compulsion to actually build on it. If it got really bad, I suppose you could make it greenspace.GoHarvOrGoHome wrote: ↑Apr 11, 2018Mike Shannon's site is eventually going to be something big. In the meantime I wouldn't mind if it got torn down and turned into surface parking on a interim basis. I'm no fan of surface parking, just seems better than a rotting two story building that's just waiting to be torn down anyways.
We're struggling enough as it is to get people to use the parks we have. I'll tell you as a downtown resident and worker, the last thing we need to more green space (well, actually parking would be the last thing, but green space is 2nd to last).
There's constantly homeless people sleeping on the patio of Mike Shannon's on the west side of the building. They're also relieving themselves in front of three floors of Spire employees.
I've seen people go in and out of Shannon's, they usually look like they're in chef garb. They've posted a private property sign on the door, but it hasn't had any effect it appears.
I've seen people go in and out of Shannon's, they usually look like they're in chef garb. They've posted a private property sign on the door, but it hasn't had any effect it appears.
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Concrete columns for a portion of what appears to be the office building are one story above ground.
Excavation is going full swing on the apartment portion and it looked like they were beginning to tie the caissons together for some sort of foundation pour. I would imagine the second crane should be going up any day now.
Excavation is going full swing on the apartment portion and it looked like they were beginning to tie the caissons together for some sort of foundation pour. I would imagine the second crane should be going up any day now.
There will be three cranes soon. I’ll be down this weekend to take photosnewstl2020 wrote:Concrete columns for a portion of what appears to be the office building are one story above ground.
Excavation is going full swing on the apartment portion and it looked like they were beginning to tie the caissons together for some sort of foundation pour. I would imagine the second crane should be going up any day now.
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Just heard there was a shooting inside Ballpark Village...scary.
Probably about the worst place it could have happened for the perception of downtown. One of precieved safest places downtown. Those people selling leases are going to have to work a little harder selling now. Hopefully this doesn't impact other development on the way. Hopefully the two shot recover.
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Anyone know what “event” BPV/Bud Brewhouse was hosting tonight?
Just curious what event it was and if it would have warranted pat-downs or metal detectors. Was this a security oversight...
Just curious what event it was and if it would have warranted pat-downs or metal detectors. Was this a security oversight...
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Not to be an alarmist, but I have always noted the extensive lack of security measures at major St Louis events and venues. Busch Stadium's security is mandated by the MLB. I really do think BPV should have metal detectors on game days, and anti-truck barriers should be placed on Clark if they aren't there already.
I think many of us do tend to forget that St. Louis is a target for many harmful acts and I really think that from my perception we are not prepared to deal with one should it occur.
I think many of us do tend to forget that St. Louis is a target for many harmful acts and I really think that from my perception we are not prepared to deal with one should it occur.
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Frankly, I'm surprised this hasn't happened earlier in BPV 's life span. Dudes have no temper control these days and they know there's little probability in getting caught.
I'm not sure what you're talking about here. I've traveled extensively around America and been to numerous events and venues. By my rough count I've been to 11 different NHL venues, 10 MLB, 13 NFL as well as assorted college, minor league and other sports/big concert places.Chalupas54 wrote: ↑Apr 30, 2018Not to be an alarmist, but I have always noted the extensive lack of security measures at major St Louis events and venues. Busch Stadium's security is mandated by the MLB. I really do think BPV should have metal detectors on game days, and anti-truck barriers should be placed on Clark if they aren't there already.
I think many of us do tend to forget that St. Louis is a target for many harmful acts and I really think that from my perception we are not prepared to deal with one should it occur.
I've never noticed St. Louis lacking at St. Louis events and venues. The only time I've seen noticeably heavier security was the Kentucky Derby, New Orleans Mardi Gras and the Florida Georgia game in Jacksonville. I think the Derby and Mardi Gras are marked at a Level 1 events by Homeland Security so that's why it's so heavy. The FLA/GA game is known as the "World's Largest Cocktail Party" and they need the heavy presence to handle all the drunks.
EDIT: plus concerts at Wrigley get a noticeably heavier police presence. But I think that's partly due to it being smack dab in the middle of a residential neighborhood. Other Chicagoland venues don't seem any different than St. Louis in their police coverage.
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Likely because no money. Also i wouldn't be surprised if the Missouri Legislature will instead demand guns let in the area by state law saying fans don't feel safe going downtown without them.Chalupas54 wrote: ↑Apr 30, 2018Not to be an alarmist, but I have always noted the extensive lack of security measures at major St Louis events and venues. Busch Stadium's security is mandated by the MLB. I really do think BPV should have metal detectors on game days, and anti-truck barriers should be placed on Clark if they aren't there already.
I think many of us do tend to forget that St. Louis is a target for many harmful acts and I really think that from my perception we are not prepared to deal with one should it occur.
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I don’t see people being shot at those events. You also don’t typically have shootings in Wrigleyville. What happened at BPV was a tragic lapse of security that will wound the city severely. The fact that Lyda, the CVB, and the metro Police are not out here giving pressers is unacceptable. Have any of you scrolled the FB and Twitter reactions to this? It’s horrible. Downtown is not the only one taking a hit from this. St Louis as a whole will have a nice black eye for a while.dweebe wrote: ↑Apr 30, 2018I'm not sure what you're talking about here. I've traveled extensively around America and been to numerous events and venues. By my rough count I've been to 11 different NHL venues, 10 MLB, 13 NFL as well as assorted college, minor league and other sports/big concert places.Chalupas54 wrote: ↑Apr 30, 2018Not to be an alarmist, but I have always noted the extensive lack of security measures at major St Louis events and venues. Busch Stadium's security is mandated by the MLB. I really do think BPV should have metal detectors on game days, and anti-truck barriers should be placed on Clark if they aren't there already.
I think many of us do tend to forget that St. Louis is a target for many harmful acts and I really think that from my perception we are not prepared to deal with one should it occur.
I've never noticed St. Louis lacking at St. Louis events and venues. The only time I've seen noticeably heavier security was the Kentucky Derby, New Orleans Mardi Gras and the Florida Georgia game in Jacksonville. I think the Derby and Mardi Gras are marked at a Level 1 events by Homeland Security so that's why it's so heavy. The FLA/GA game is known as the "World's Largest Cocktail Party" and they need the heavy presence to handle all the drunks.
EDIT: plus concerts at Wrigley get a noticeably heavier police presence. But I think that's partly due to it being smack dab in the middle of a residential neighborhood. Other Chicagoland venues don't seem any different than St. Louis in their police coverage.
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How badly was Vegas or the concert industry in general hurt by that domestic terrorist shooting over 500 people and killing almost 60 in a truly random act of appalling violence. I'm not asking rhetorically, I'm asking in earnest?
I believe this incident - while so very disgusting - speaks more to the BS gun/anger culture prevalent in America today and less about downtown or BPV IMO. Not a random incident. Absolutely pathetic nonetheless but in today's environment could really have happened anywhere. Which I guess speaks to a much larger problem in America today to which there is a grave lack of leadership and demand for solutions from everyone on. Its not going to get better until significant structural changes in American society get changed IMO.
I believe this incident - while so very disgusting - speaks more to the BS gun/anger culture prevalent in America today and less about downtown or BPV IMO. Not a random incident. Absolutely pathetic nonetheless but in today's environment could really have happened anywhere. Which I guess speaks to a much larger problem in America today to which there is a grave lack of leadership and demand for solutions from everyone on. Its not going to get better until significant structural changes in American society get changed IMO.
I don't disagree with you on that this is being mishandled by the powers that be in St. Louis and that we're getting another black eye.Chalupas54 wrote: ↑Apr 30, 2018I don’t see people being shot at those events. You also don’t typically have shootings in Wrigleyville. What happened at BPV was a tragic lapse of security that will wound the city severely. The fact that Lyda, the CVB, and the metro Police are not out here giving pressers is unacceptable. Have any of you scrolled the FB and Twitter reactions to this? It’s horrible. Downtown is not the only one taking a hit from this. St Louis as a whole will have a nice black eye for a while.dweebe wrote: ↑Apr 30, 2018I'm not sure what you're talking about here. I've traveled extensively around America and been to numerous events and venues. By my rough count I've been to 11 different NHL venues, 10 MLB, 13 NFL as well as assorted college, minor league and other sports/big concert places.Chalupas54 wrote: ↑Apr 30, 2018Not to be an alarmist, but I have always noted the extensive lack of security measures at major St Louis events and venues. Busch Stadium's security is mandated by the MLB. I really do think BPV should have metal detectors on game days, and anti-truck barriers should be placed on Clark if they aren't there already.
I think many of us do tend to forget that St. Louis is a target for many harmful acts and I really think that from my perception we are not prepared to deal with one should it occur.
I've never noticed St. Louis lacking at St. Louis events and venues. The only time I've seen noticeably heavier security was the Kentucky Derby, New Orleans Mardi Gras and the Florida Georgia game in Jacksonville. I think the Derby and Mardi Gras are marked at a Level 1 events by Homeland Security so that's why it's so heavy. The FLA/GA game is known as the "World's Largest Cocktail Party" and they need the heavy presence to handle all the drunks.
EDIT: plus concerts at Wrigley get a noticeably heavier police presence. But I think that's partly due to it being smack dab in the middle of a residential neighborhood. Other Chicagoland venues don't seem any different than St. Louis in their police coverage.
But I'm cycling back around to your alarmist accusation that other cities do a much better job with event security and heavy police presence at their big venues. I don't see what you're claiming with regards to other cities being so much better. Can you give me some examples? If anything I've noticed how much less police and security there are in other cities.
Go to a concert at an amphitheater in another city and people are openly drinking/smoking weed in the parking lot. Here in St. Louis at Riverport the Maryland Heights cops will come flying up on an ATV or golf cart to yell at you for standing too long while drinking a soda.
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Unfortunately, everyone is seeing this as a Downtown violence problem. Take one look at Facebook and Twitter. I’ve seen a lot of adverse STL bashing before, but this is by far the worst I’ve seen since Stockley. I genuinely am very concerned for BPV if the Cardinals don’t calm fears.americancitizen wrote: ↑Apr 30, 2018How badly was Vegas or the concert industry in general hurt by that domestic terrorist shooting over 500 people and killing almost 60 in a truly random act of appalling violence. I'm not asking rhetorically, I'm asking in earnest?
I believe this incident - while so very disgusting - speaks more to the BS gun/anger culture prevalent in America today and less about downtown or BPV IMO. Not a random incident. Absolutely pathetic nonetheless but in today's environment could really have happened anywhere. Which I guess speaks to a much larger problem in America today to which there is a grave lack of leadership and demand for solutions from everyone on. Its not going to get better until significant structural changes in American society get changed IMO.
Responding to Dweebe, I currently live on the East Coast, I can say for a fact that Newark has way stronger security. Heavily armed police are constantly visible and bag searches are everywhere. It works. Newark has a very grim vibe, but it feels safe with the heavy police presence.
More or less, my beef with St Louis is that something isn’t working. What sets this BPV incident apart, is that this wasn’t an unavoidable terrorist incident or mass shooting attack. This could and should have been stopped. I’ve seen extensive complaints on social media of St Louis Police ‘not doing anything’ in these instances. Valid or not, these are real perceptions St Louisans have and it’s horrible.