I don't think it has anything to do with people being against the project i think it has everything to do with the dynamics of the St.Louis market for them either way I'm sure another developer will swoon in and make a proposal or perhaps a signature 50 story tower can be erected? Kidding aside thats prime real estate in one of the most sought neighborhoods in the region it'll only be a matter of time. Pulte should at least honor this project and then they can exit the St.Louis market however Pulte's loss will be anthers gain.
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Pulte is building $700K homes in Des Peres. But they are not selling fast. I hear the $300k and down martlet is hot, but not $500k and up. Lots of executives have left St Louis with HQs of AB, Hardee's, Boeing IDS etc leaving town. And I heard someone describe the Pulte suburban home designs as looking like barns. Lots of square footage but little character and odd contrasting color corner and facia. High end homes from McKelvey and McBride are more attractive and are selling better.
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I don't know about that first part. Homes in my area are selling very fast in all price ranges.gary kreie wrote: ↑May 05, 2017Pulte is building $700K homes in Des Peres. But they are not selling fast. I hear the $300k and down martlet is hot, but not $500k and up. Lots of executives have left St Louis with HQs of AB, Hardee's, Boeing IDS etc leaving town. And I heard someone describe the Pulte suburban home designs as looking like barns. Lots of square footage but little character and odd contrasting color corner and facia. High end homes from McKelvey and McBride are more attractive and are selling better.
I do agree with the second part. My parents live close to Pulte's Des Peres development, and some of the homes are a bit odd looking, even by suburban standards. The McKelvey homes are pretty nice; the McBride ones are crap.
Can't help but think that a national home builder leaving a market would try to sell off some of its projects a packaged deal, such as Mackay Quarter, with obvious costs to date from architectural to engineering to the marketing & approval investment already put forth to another home builder or developer, whether it be local or another national company. Would seem even more likely if the developer had acquired the land.
Does that make sense or common practice? Would this Mackay Quarter be a good candidate for another developer take over with what has been proposed and approved?
Does that make sense or common practice? Would this Mackay Quarter be a good candidate for another developer take over with what has been proposed and approved?
Yes, exactly! We can hold off until we get the design we want.
It happened on Carroll Street where we said "hey, we want nice quality single family housing." At least two plans that did NOT meet that criteria came and went because the marketplace turned them down. Now we have--nice quality single family housing.
It happened on Dolmam street where Vatterott came to present a plan for cheap ass houses that we should be happy to accept because we are the crappy city, we should take any crap they throw out.
nope, Vaterott.
But look at Dolman now: high end residential structures by various builders, a nice assortment of varied architecture, all within the pattern book required. And all on the street formerly a no-man's land. Once the Federal government got out of the way and released those lots, private investors lined up to build on Dolman.
I cant predict the future, and the Mackay Place parcel is problematic due to the large utility right of way agled through it, But at some point, when all of the easy lots are built on (and we have pretty much reached that point) the more difficult properties will come up for development.
Pulte never purchased it, they only have an option on itdredger wrote: ↑May 05, 2017Can't help but think that a national home builder leaving a market would try to sell off some of its projects a packaged deal, such as Mackay Quarter, with obvious costs to date from architectural to engineering to the marketing & approval investment already put forth to another home builder or developer, whether it be local or another national company. Would seem even more likely if the developer had acquired the land.
Does that make sense or common practice? Would this Mackay Quarter be a good candidate for another developer take over with what has been proposed and approved?
I actually agree with A Robinson, and would welcome higher end contemporary interpretations at Victorian scale. But years ago the majority of the Lafayette Square neighborhood wanted historic structures used for new construction. You could call them ignorant plebs, or you could consider their taste prudent if bland. I say "prudent" because it is hard to set architechtural standards for contemporary buildings in the Laf Sq neoghborhood, I know, I sat through contless meetings before this current code was drafted.framer wrote: ↑Apr 25, 2017I like this quote from the article:
But board member Anthony Robinson blamed the historic neighborhood’s ordinances that use a limited set of historic models as templates for new developers for the lack of variance in the developer’s plans, calling the code shortsighted and leaving little room for big projects.
“We need to deviate from the historic model to get some variance,” he said.
Personally, I like the residential units going up on Lagayette in The Gate District , buildings that are tall and skinny and have a lot of masronry (stone not red brick.) But most people in Lafayette Square probably wouldnt like them, and I wouldnt like entire rows of them built according to the Pulte plan.
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unless they actually tried to sell them and nobody bought them, the marketplace didn't turn them down. sounds like the neighborhood turned them down before they even hit the market. not the same thing.Fauxpas wrote: ...because the marketplace turned them down.
if you read carefully, that's not what user28 was saying. his point was that being overly persnickety could very well lead to another decade+ of nothing.Fauxpas wrote: Yes, exactly! We can hold off until we get the design we want.
i'm all for quality infill and modern design, but this would have been a solid project for a long neglected site. it would have raised property values as well as the city's average household income, and that's what the city needs most at the moment.
Yes, they actively marketed the giant mondocondo block building on Carroll. No takers. I remember going up in a high lift that some real estate genius used to show people the view from the phantom third floor deck. This was at marketing launch no. 2. The fIrst effort with pretty much the same plan failed as well.urban_dilettante wrote: ↑May 07, 2017unless they actually tried to sell them and nobody bought them, the marketplace didn't turn them down. sounds like the neighborhood turned them down before they even hit the market. not the same thing.Fauxpas wrote: ...because the marketplace turned them down.
if you read carefully, that's not what user28 was saying. his point was that being overly persnickety could very well lead to another decade+ of nothing.Fauxpas wrote: Yes, exactly! We can hold off until we get the design we want.
i'm all for quality infill and modern design, but this would have been a solid project for a long neglected site. it would have raised property values as well as the city's average household income, and that's what the city needs most at the moment.
I read carefully and completely understand that user28 is not optimistic about "overly persnickity" standards. Really.
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Not a big surprise that they didn't sell during the recession. Market conditions are a smidge better these days and demand is up.Fauxpas wrote: Yes, they actively marketed the giant mondocondo block building on Carroll. No takers.
Pulte is also building 1M homes in Ladue and 800k homes in Creve Coeur that are not the typical box designs. Has anyone seen those properties and have an opinion?
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Woods of Ladue
https://www.pulte.com/homes/missouri/st ... due-209467
Creekside at Mason
https://www.pulte.com/homes/missouri/st ... reve-coeur
Honestly I thought it was a so-so proposal - better after the re-design - but this is a big site on a major thoroughfare, there is an active retail (bars & restaurants) developing on Chouteau. I would like to see some token retail space - at least on the corner of Mackay or Missouri
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Maybe those images don't do them justice, but I'm not seeing anything new there. Looks like standard "luxury" development that we've seen since the 90s. No diss intended, just being honest, and from a business standpoint this shouldn't be taken as bad news as it seems a lot of people with the money to afford it are still big fans of stuff like this.moorlander wrote: ↑May 08, 2017
Woods of Ladue
https://www.pulte.com/homes/missouri/st ... due-209467
Creekside at Mason
https://www.pulte.com/homes/missouri/st ... reve-coeur
Nextstl - Big Plans for Chouteau in Lafayette Square
https://nextstl.com/2018/03/big-plans-f ... te-square/
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https://nextstl.com/2018/03/big-plans-f ... te-square/
^this looks like it could be really good for the neighborhood. Does anyone have an idea how likely it is that the residents won't block this?
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^I know the gut reaction is to think those in the area will NIMBY-up against this, but honestly why would they? Most people living in Lafayette Sq at this point in time understand the value of urban spaces, as I would guess a lot of the recent sales and new residents (~5-7 years) are empty-nesters looking for an urban environment. Anyone buying in Lafayette square anywhere near the current prices has to understand the value proposition offered by this visionary investment in their neighborhood.
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Any ballpark ideas/guesses on number of residential units in this complex? 250?
I agree, if I am allowed to extrapolate from the couple of people I know living in LS, the community is likely to be supportive of this project.newstl2020 wrote: ↑Mar 27, 2018^I know the gut reaction is to think those in the area will NIMBY-up against this, but honestly why would they? Most people living in Lafayette Sq at this point in time understand the value of urban spaces, as I would guess a lot of the recent sales and new residents (~5-7 years) are empty-nesters looking for an urban environment. Anyone buying in Lafayette square anywhere near the current prices has to understand the value proposition offered by this visionary investment in their neighborhood.
https://nextstl.com/2018/03/big-plans-f ... te-square/
So instead of demoing Forest Park Community College they're jus reconfiguring it in Laf Square?
So instead of demoing Forest Park Community College they're jus reconfiguring it in Laf Square?
A timeline in the proposal document says that they want to start one of the phases by June. Based on the lack of news from this, I would expect it to me somewhere later than that.
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This is exactly the high profile transit - oriented development that is needed to improve St. Louis. This design and density rivals TOD in major metropolitan markets and willl greatly improve Lafayette Square. This is a hot neighborhood where demand far exceeds supply and thus the only housing built is that which competes with other hot and expensive residential markets like Clayton, Ladue, Creve Coeur. However land is much cheaper around Lafayette Square which can support expansion of the successful neighborhood. Light rail will help usher the in this wave of economic development to meet pent up market demand and expand demand to other areas as the former fills up. If developers are wise they would start acquiring land before light rail is implemented and then profit off of the land value gain. This is what value capture around transit research shows.
Do think HOK has decided to go beyond its typical role as architect of the project and looking to be a developer/have equity stake in the project itself? Much the same way that Bob Clark has taken Clayco from contractor to developer/investor in some of their projects including Everly on Delmar that moved along fairly quickly once it was announced.