Is it just me or does there always seem to be like 2 dudes working on this thing project? Every time I drive by there are like maybe two to four people working.
Not really out to defend Lawrence Group right now, especially with how long they've been taking on the Missouri Theater Bldg, but abatement can be a delicate process. That's a pretty nasty site. And if you look at the Instagram page, they have been making progress. At least it will make an incredible difference when signage and new windows get installed along 40.
I've seen a good dozen or so guys from time to time coming down I-64. It varies on where they are but it's a huge building
You won't see much going on there besides the addition of more "urban art" until SM Wilson gets mobilized for construction later this spring.
What you did see was all the remediation and brownfield work. Asbestos, lead paint, etc removal. The building was a disaster from all of the foundry work that was done in there, very very dirty. Needed to be cleaned and that took awhile. All that work is completed now and Midwest has turned the site back over to the owner. Look for construction activity in a few months.
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Biz Journal has a story today on anchor tenants for phase 1.
“Alamo Drafthouse and Punch Bowl Social will anchor the $185million first phase of City Foundry, developer Lawrence Group told the Business Journal.
Austin, Texas-based Alamo Drafthouse will open a 10-screen theater with food and drink service, and Denver-based Punch Bowl Social, an "eatertainment" concept that brings together food and gaming, will feature a boutique bowling alley, virtual reality experiences, bocce ball, private karaoke rooms and other games. Oklahoma-based McNellie's Group also signed on as a tenant and will open Fassler Hall, a German-inspired beer hall and rooftop beer garden.”
https://www.bizjournals.com/stlouis/new ... j=79605681
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“Alamo Drafthouse and Punch Bowl Social will anchor the $185million first phase of City Foundry, developer Lawrence Group told the Business Journal.
Austin, Texas-based Alamo Drafthouse will open a 10-screen theater with food and drink service, and Denver-based Punch Bowl Social, an "eatertainment" concept that brings together food and gaming, will feature a boutique bowling alley, virtual reality experiences, bocce ball, private karaoke rooms and other games. Oklahoma-based McNellie's Group also signed on as a tenant and will open Fassler Hall, a German-inspired beer hall and rooftop beer garden.”
https://www.bizjournals.com/stlouis/new ... j=79605681
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So, among the soon-to-be 4 theaters in the central corridor (MX, Moolah, Chase and Foundry) which one has gotten the smallest/biggest tax subsidy?
real question with a complicated answer I'm sure. Believe they've all benefited some some tax $.
Suppose my implicit criticism is that it's not smart tax policy to subsidize entertainment/dining. Not like it's good job creation.
Foundry has a heavy entertainment/dining component, so it's going to further cannibalize the central corridor's existing entertainment/dining districts of Wash Ave, The Grove, CWE, Soulard and BPV.
Gotta be honest, the more I consider this project, the more I think it's wrong to throw so much tax $ at it.
real question with a complicated answer I'm sure. Believe they've all benefited some some tax $.
Suppose my implicit criticism is that it's not smart tax policy to subsidize entertainment/dining. Not like it's good job creation.
Foundry has a heavy entertainment/dining component, so it's going to further cannibalize the central corridor's existing entertainment/dining districts of Wash Ave, The Grove, CWE, Soulard and BPV.
Gotta be honest, the more I consider this project, the more I think it's wrong to throw so much tax $ at it.
While everyone is distracted with the Post article, St. Louis Magazine released the most detail I've seen yet. The office space is 85% leased and new renderings!
https://www.stlmag.com/dining/city-foun ... lining-up/
https://www.stlmag.com/dining/city-foun ... lining-up/
I think the Alamo Drafthouse kills the Moolah and Chase. Moolah because of location and the Chase screens are teeny tiny.ImprovSTL wrote: ↑Nov 20, 2017Sorry to get off topic, but I have heard an interesting story on the MX from a former manager. He says the owner got tired of running it so he turned the management over to St. Louis Cinemas. So St. Louis Cinemas manages it but does not own it like the Moolah, Tivoli, etc. He says they do just enough to keep it afloat but not enough so it is competitive to any of their other theatres. Just reporting what I heard.bwcrow1s wrote: ↑Nov 17, 2017Yeah.. I mean, it sounds like an expensive date. I doubt they run out any of the other theaters. I'm worried about MX still at this point though. It's always empty when I've gone.STLrainbow wrote: ↑Nov 15, 2017Assuming Alamo House is indeed the movie theater that's coming in for Phase 2, is that enough of a differential from say Moolah and Chase to keep everyone in biz and happy? I do see AH being sort of a destination theater bringing people in from a wider area compared to the others in the city..
I would be beyond sad to lose the Moolah.dweebe wrote: ↑Jan 24, 2018I think the Alamo Drafthouse kills the Moolah and Chase. Moolah because of location and the Chase screens are teeny tiny.ImprovSTL wrote: ↑Nov 20, 2017Sorry to get off topic, but I have heard an interesting story on the MX from a former manager. He says the owner got tired of running it so he turned the management over to St. Louis Cinemas. So St. Louis Cinemas manages it but does not own it like the Moolah, Tivoli, etc. He says they do just enough to keep it afloat but not enough so it is competitive to any of their other theatres. Just reporting what I heard.
I actually like the chase because of this. I am probably in the minority on it though. I think the chase will be okay just because of how much that area is building up. A lot more residential around there in theory should help it, I would think. I admit I could be totally wrong though.
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Fassler Hall = chain UCBC.
Punch Bowl Social sounds fun but isn't that concept already covered by a few other places around town?
Punch Bowl Social sounds fun but isn't that concept already covered by a few other places around town?
If it's a piece of dirt in a high profile area, then there is no reason tax incentives should be involved. Projects like the Centene expansion, BPV residential, new townhomes on The Hill, new industrial at Hazelwood Logistics Park, could absolutely happen without the need for tax abatement.
I still think Foundry is one of the rare examples of projects that actually warrant tax incentives. In my mind, the intent behind tax incentives should be to push developers to take on projects that otherwise might not happen. Foundry included a massive cleanup and atypical layout that vast majority of developers wouldn't touch. Converting an environmental mess of a building into a mixed use concept, using the existing buildings and infrastructure (i.e. railroad trussle) with at least one significant new element (food hall) is a net positive. Don't particularly care for national chains swooping in and taking the high profile spaces, but better than it being vacant.
I also wonder if STL gets too wrapped up in competition and how it negatively affects business. Why do we often assume that anything new automatically kills something else?
I still think Foundry is one of the rare examples of projects that actually warrant tax incentives. In my mind, the intent behind tax incentives should be to push developers to take on projects that otherwise might not happen. Foundry included a massive cleanup and atypical layout that vast majority of developers wouldn't touch. Converting an environmental mess of a building into a mixed use concept, using the existing buildings and infrastructure (i.e. railroad trussle) with at least one significant new element (food hall) is a net positive. Don't particularly care for national chains swooping in and taking the high profile spaces, but better than it being vacant.
I also wonder if STL gets too wrapped up in competition and how it negatively affects business. Why do we often assume that anything new automatically kills something else?
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jbacott wrote: ↑Jan 24, 2018If it's a piece of dirt in a high profile area, then there is no reason tax incentives should be involved. Projects like the Centene expansion, BPV residential, new townhomes on The Hill, new industrial at Hazelwood Logistics Park, could absolutely happen without the need for tax abatement.
I still think Foundry is one of the rare examples of projects that actually warrant tax incentives. In my mind, the intent behind tax incentives should be to push developers to take on projects that otherwise might not happen. Foundry included a massive cleanup and atypical layout that vast majority of developers wouldn't touch. Converting an environmental mess of a building into a mixed use concept, using the existing buildings and infrastructure (i.e. railroad trussle) with at least one significant new element (food hall) is a net positive. Don't particularly care for national chains swooping in and taking the high profile spaces, but better than it being vacant.
I also wonder if STL gets too wrapped up in competition and how it negatively affects business. Why do we often assume that anything new automatically kills something else?
It's STL, some are scared of competition. STL needs new business blood that understands competition and upping-your-game.
Really anxious to hear the retail tenants. Sneak peak of the restaurants and entertainment and that office is 85% leased -- but not a single tidbit about retail.... wonder why?
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From the stlmag article linked in an above post. I completely understand the business case necessity of this quoted comment, but I really hope in the next 10 years this can be removed from St. Louis' collective thought process. More people more people more people.Safety and security were prime concerns while planning the complex. “The primary access is off Vandeventer, from the same access point as IKEA," Smith says. "We own the street that leads into the development, and we control the 1,000 parking spaces within, all above grade... I compare it to IKEA. There, people know they’ll be on a private lot and that it’s secure and well-lit. In other areas of the city, you typically have to cross a public way to get to your destination. We’ve taken that out of the equation.”
I think some people/articles are focusing on the wrong things. The movie theater is not the draw.
The entertainment/bar aspect isn't perfect, but that's not the selling point of the project. This is an awesome new food market in a unique space, that's FINALLY bringing retail to the city, and luring more companies/residents from surrounding areas. There will be NEW tax revenue, to the extent we are actually collecting it in the short term. And it's not even speculation (85% leased space)
I've only been to a food market of this quality in Lisbon (Time Out Market). That thing is a huge draw on its own. This project has soooo much more to offer. It could be a place that draws visitors from other cities, much less our own county.
BPV phase 1 cannibalized because it didn't bring an office/residential component, and only drew on the existing crowd going to the ballparks and surrounding bars. Foundry is being done right. These chains could be a lot worse, and some of them will just exist as a place for people that are already there to spend their money. That's a good thing.
The entertainment/bar aspect isn't perfect, but that's not the selling point of the project. This is an awesome new food market in a unique space, that's FINALLY bringing retail to the city, and luring more companies/residents from surrounding areas. There will be NEW tax revenue, to the extent we are actually collecting it in the short term. And it's not even speculation (85% leased space)
I've only been to a food market of this quality in Lisbon (Time Out Market). That thing is a huge draw on its own. This project has soooo much more to offer. It could be a place that draws visitors from other cities, much less our own county.
BPV phase 1 cannibalized because it didn't bring an office/residential component, and only drew on the existing crowd going to the ballparks and surrounding bars. Foundry is being done right. These chains could be a lot worse, and some of them will just exist as a place for people that are already there to spend their money. That's a good thing.
If this were a true free-market, I'd have no problems. May the best entertainment/dining districts win. However, we all know that some entertainment/dining districts get more tax subsidy than others. BPV being the prime example. Foundry may not be far behind.
Does the Beale on Broadway get significant/any tax $? Gramaphone? Hammerstones? Charlie Gittos downtown? Brennan's? I doubt these places get any.
Lastly, because we're a slow-growth region, picking entertainment/dining winners with tax $ is even more pronounced...and inappropriate.
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I recently saw a movie at the new Alamo Drafthouse in Charlottesville, VA. Not impressed. The beer is absurdly overpriced. The overall experience wasn't anything special. I much prefer Moolah.
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I don't think we know that yet.... who is leasing the office? how much will these new food/entertainment places bleed existing food/entertainment businesses in the city? what shopping will be coming? I don't think there's any question the central corridor is growing and this will be another attractive amenity for it as well as a bit of a regional entertainment draw, but we've got a ways to go to see what the net fiscal impact will be on the city and how well it serves city residents as a whole. Hopefully we'll hear more soon.ryan593 wrote: ↑Jan 24, 2018I think some people/articles are focusing on the wrong things. The movie theater is not the draw.
The entertainment/bar aspect isn't perfect, but that's not the selling point of the project. This is an awesome new food market in a unique space, that's FINALLY bringing retail to the city, and luring more companies/residents from surrounding areas. There will be NEW tax revenue, to the extent we are actually collecting it in the short term. And it's not even speculation (85% leased space)
Defintiely the best write-up on the food hall but STLBIZ has the best overview of the larger project; unfortunately it is behind a paywall:addxb2 wrote: ↑Jan 24, 2018While everyone is distracted with the Post article, St. Louis Magazine released the most detail I've seen yet. The office space is 85% leased and new renderings!
https://www.stlmag.com/dining/city-foun ... lining-up/
https://www.bizjournals.com/stlouis/new ... -city.html
But I think the takeaway from it is that the first phase will include shopping ("fashion and soft goods")
.
Lawrence Group will release the retail and office tenants over the next three months, with construction starting after that, Smith said. In addition, Lawrence Group will coordinate with Great Rivers Greenway about Chouteau Greenway, a planned greenway connecting downtown to Forest Park, that is expected to be built adjacent to City Foundry.
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Still basically nowhere in the City to buy a simple pair of Levi's jeans. We shouldn't have to go to the suburbs for that.
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I was at Ponce Market in Atlanta, and that place was absolutely packed on a Sunday Afternoon, with 10 person lines not even a peak times... also it was just a super cool place to hang out and goof off. I hope they can capture some of that feeling, because I was thinking St. Louis should have this the entire time.
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^ tbh before Lawrence Group announced their plans I was hoping we could get something like Ponce City Market here; I envisioned the Lemp Brewery complex but Foundry it is. I really hope the tenant mix leads to something special; I think the atmosphere of the foundry should be able to set the stage well enough.
And I think we should also remember what Pace had planned.... and how so many people thought we should settle for that because we're Saint Louis.
And I think we should also remember what Pace had planned.... and how so many people thought we should settle for that because we're Saint Louis.