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PostSep 18, 2017#51

See, that's the question
spreadsheetwizard wrote: Protests have been 99% non-violent. I applause the organizers.

Yes, windows broken, etc.

While I'd be super pissed if someone put a rock thru my window -- the weekend has turned out as best as could've hoped.

For the larger issues -- what is the end game? Cops will most assuredly shoot / kill someone under dubious circumstances. Especially in a crime ridden city as STL...

What then?

What is the goal? How does one determine victory?


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See, that's the question we need to be asking.

For me. What I would like to see is a peaceful city where everyone has a fair shake and we can all live side by side respecting one another. So the question I want to ask is how do we get there?

I'd argue that fixing the police is only a tiny (though important) step in the process. I think we could use better civilian oversight; something with more teeth. I think we could use reforms to get police officers out of cars and onto streets talking to their neighbors. (More of them, anyway.) Maybe we could use more community service officers. And focus the officers with cars on traffic enforcement and emergency response. (We could use better traffic control anyway.) And maybe better training for community engagement and no public pay for "warrior cop" seminars. This isn't a war. It needs to not be a war.

But even if we have perfect police officers trained well we'll still have systemic problems. We also need to learn to respect our neighbors, to stop at crosswalks when we're driving. To be careful around pedestrians. To be less angry and more peaceful. It's too easy to see someone that dresses differently and tense up because of a subconscious assumption that they're somehow a danger: a woman in hijab, a man sagging his pants, that kind of thing. We need to teach ourselves to breathe slowly and be nice. (And I include myself in this.) We need to sit down and eat dinner together, so we learn about the sore feet from working long hours on a concrete floor. We all have sore feet, right? Concrete doesn't care what color your feet are when you're standing there. And we can all commiserate about grueling nasty stuff if we stop to listen.

And we need to give folks that have been poor for generations better access to educational opportunity, better access to housing, to community services, and so forth. Make it less of a stigma. Make it more invisible. Maybe even make it more automatic, so that if you make less than x you get this whether you apply or not. Kind of like motor voter, only for aid. Lord knows there have been points in my life when I could have used help, but I've been too damned proud and stupid to ask.

Just spitballing. But that's the right question. And victory comes when demographically you can't predict the color of someone's skin from what kind of job someone has, how much they make, or which high school they attended. Victory comes when that damned question goes away. For me. When no one even CARES what high school you went to. That's victory. Small steps. Small measure. But good questions.

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PostSep 18, 2017#52

At what point are the elected officials that are participating in these activities culpable for the millions of dollars in lost revenue and productivity it is costing St. Louis businesses both large and small?

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PostSep 18, 2017#53

symphonicpoet wrote:
Sep 18, 2017
See, that's the question
spreadsheetwizard wrote: Protests have been 99% non-violent. I applause the organizers.

Yes, windows broken, etc.

While I'd be super pissed if someone put a rock thru my window -- the weekend has turned out as best as could've hoped.

For the larger issues -- what is the end game? Cops will most assuredly shoot / kill someone under dubious circumstances. Especially in a crime ridden city as STL...

What then?

What is the goal? How does one determine victory?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
See, that's the question we need to be asking.

For me. What I would like to see is a peaceful city where everyone has a fair shake and we can all live side by side respecting one another. So the question I want to ask is how do we get there?

I'd argue that fixing the police is only a tiny (though important) step in the process. I think we could use better civilian oversight; something with more teeth. I think we could use reforms to get police officers out of cars and onto streets talking to their neighbors. (More of them, anyway.) Maybe we could use more community service officers. And focus the officers with cars on traffic enforcement and emergency response. (We could use better traffic control anyway.) And maybe better training for community engagement and no public pay for "warrior cop" seminars. This isn't a war. It needs to not be a war.

But even if we have perfect police officers trained well we'll still have systemic problems. We also need to learn to respect our neighbors, to stop at crosswalks when we're driving. To be careful around pedestrians. To be less angry and more peaceful. It's too easy to see someone that dresses differently and tense up because of a subconscious assumption that they're somehow a danger: a woman in hijab, a man sagging his pants, that kind of thing. We need to teach ourselves to breathe slowly and be nice. (And I include myself in this.) We need to sit down and eat dinner together, so we learn about the sore feet from working long hours on a concrete floor. We all have sore feet, right? Concrete doesn't care what color your feet are when you're standing there. And we can all commiserate about grueling nasty stuff if we stop to listen.

And we need to give folks that have been poor for generations better access to educational opportunity, better access to housing, to community services, and so forth. Make it less of a stigma. Make it more invisible. Maybe even make it more automatic, so that if you make less than x you get this whether you apply or not. Kind of like motor voter, only for aid. Lord knows there have been points in my life when I could have used help, but I've been too damned proud and stupid to ask.

Just spitballing. But that's the right question. And victory comes when demographically you can't predict the color of someone's skin from what kind of job someone has, how much they make, or which high school they attended. Victory comes when that damned question goes away. For me. When no one even CARES what high school you went to. That's victory. Small steps. Small measure. But good questions.
Yes, This, 100%

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PostSep 18, 2017#54

robertn42 wrote:
Sep 18, 2017
At what point are the elected officials that are participating in these activities culpable for the millions of dollars in lost revenue and productivity it is costing St. Louis businesses both large and small?
What does that mean? Why would elected officals be on the hook for lost revenue? If their constituents want to vote them out they certainly will have the opportunity to do so. If i had to guess I don't think any of the people your thinking of will suffer electoral losses because of this.

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PostSep 18, 2017#55

mjbais1489 wrote:
Sep 18, 2017
robertn42 wrote:
Sep 18, 2017
At what point are the elected officials that are participating in these activities culpable for the millions of dollars in lost revenue and productivity it is costing St. Louis businesses both large and small?
What does that mean? Why would elected officals be on the hook for lost revenue? If their constituents want to vote them out they certainly will have the opportunity to do so. If i had to guess I don't think any of the people your thinking of will suffer electoral losses because of this.
My comment is a very simple one. I don't believe elected officials should participate in activities that harm businesses in the area they represent. In the end, the harm to these business will have a negative impact on tax revenue and that negative impact on tax revenue hurts my community. I would argue that this makes their actions highly irresponsible and they in fact should be voted out of office if not reprimanded in the near-term.

I understand the protests and respect an individual's right to do so, peacefully. However, an elected official also has a responsibility to protect the small businesses, non-profits and corporations within their footprint that are being harmed by these activities. By participating and/or encouraging the protests they are choosing one over the other.

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PostSep 18, 2017#56

The police inanely chanting "Whose streets, our streets" last night appears to be going viral. Sometimes I wonder if everyone in this city is an idiot.

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PostSep 18, 2017#57

Chalupas54 wrote:
Sep 18, 2017
San Luis Native wrote:
Sep 17, 2017
Chalupas54 wrote:
Sep 17, 2017
The Delmar Loop has been seriously damaged...absolutely disturbing images.

Edit:
KSDK reporting nearly 25 business have destroyed storefronts. The loop is trashed. I would expect the National Guard and a curfew to be in place tomorrow.
Dude, the loop is far from trashed. Some shattered windows, some kicked over trash cans and that's it. "Trashed" would be looting and burning. Please save your fear mongering comments for more appropriate venues (i.e STLToday comments section). TIA.
Obviously, we have different interpretations of the word trashed. For me, the word for looting and burning would be 'devastated'. Again, I apologize for annoying you. I will exercise restraint in future comments regarding this.

BTW, the damage has arrived downtown.
Merriam-Webster definition of trashed: "something in a crumbled or broken condition or mass" source

A few windows broken? Yes. The Loop itself in a crumbled or broken state? No.

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PostSep 18, 2017#58

robertn42 wrote:
Sep 18, 2017
mjbais1489 wrote:
Sep 18, 2017
robertn42 wrote:
Sep 18, 2017
At what point are the elected officials that are participating in these activities culpable for the millions of dollars in lost revenue and productivity it is costing St. Louis businesses both large and small?
What does that mean? Why would elected officals be on the hook for lost revenue? If their constituents want to vote them out they certainly will have the opportunity to do so. If i had to guess I don't think any of the people your thinking of will suffer electoral losses because of this.
My comment is a very simple one. I don't believe elected officials should participate in activities that harm businesses in the area they represent. In the end, the harm to these business will have a negative impact on tax revenue and that negative impact on tax revenue hurts my community. I would argue that this makes their actions highly irresponsible and they in fact should be voted out of office if not reprimanded in the near-term.

I understand the protests and respect an individual's right to do so, peacefully. However, an elected official also has a responsibility to protect the small businesses, non-profits and corporations within their footprint that are being harmed by these activities. By participating and/or encouraging the protests they are choosing one over the other.
Every action a political leader takes pretty naturally helps certain people over others. That's not an automatic negative, it's just a simple matter of all actions have consequences. This one just stands out because it's a physical action.

But it can very easily be argued that by choosing to stay on the sidelines, an elected official is choosing to support local businesses over equality.

Few things in life are a win-win. You have to make choices based on what you think is the most right. You should do your best to limit negative consequences, but it is inevitable that innocent people will be impacted. That doesn't just go for protests, it goes for literally every decision we make as a society. You have to do what you think is right, and if you can't avoid hurting someone, then you follow up and try to help them too. That's all anyone can do.

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PostSep 18, 2017#59

San Luis Native wrote:
Sep 18, 2017
Chalupas54 wrote:
Sep 18, 2017
San Luis Native wrote:
Sep 17, 2017


Dude, the loop is far from trashed. Some shattered windows, some kicked over trash cans and that's it. "Trashed" would be looting and burning. Please save your fear mongering comments for more appropriate venues (i.e STLToday comments section). TIA.
Obviously, we have different interpretations of the word trashed. For me, the word for looting and burning would be 'devastated'. Again, I apologize for annoying you. I will exercise restraint in future comments regarding this.

BTW, the damage has arrived downtown.
Merriam-Webster definition of trashed: "something in a crumbled or broken condition or mass" source

A few windows broken? Yes. The Loop itself in a crumbled or broken state? No.
Hey, let's not call out the constant naysayer, it's not "productive." Just let them continue to spout whatever they feel like. Can't call them on anything, way more productive and enjoyable for everyone.

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PostSep 18, 2017#60

But we can't call out the protester who walked up to each policeman in a line and yelled, "***** You" to each of their faces as he walked down a line? We can't call that azzhole out?

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PostSep 18, 2017#61

whitherSTL wrote:
Sep 18, 2017
But we can't call out the protester who walked up to each policeman in a line and yelled, "f*** You" to each of their faces as he walked down a line? We can't call that azzhole out?
You go right ahead and go for it. $100 says I know what their response will be.



Also, focusing on an effect and not the cause.

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PostSep 18, 2017#62

ricke002 wrote:
whitherSTL wrote:
Sep 18, 2017
But we can't call out the protester who walked up to each policeman in a line and yelled, "f*** You" to each of their faces as he walked down a line? We can't call that azzhole out?
You go right ahead and go for it. $100 says I know what their response will be.



Also, focusing on an effect and not the cause.
Sticks and stones... yo...

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PostSep 19, 2017#63

So what's and acceptable result for the protestors? I'd like to see lyda extend the olive branch to the protest leaders and lead the effort to end police brutality and increase police accountability. Protest leaders should also be included in the selection of the new police chief.

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PostSep 19, 2017#64

moorlander wrote:
Sep 19, 2017
So what's and acceptable result for the protestors? I'd like to see lyda extend the olive branch to the protest leaders and lead the effort to end police brutality and increase police accountability. Protest leaders should also be included in the selection of the new police chief.
I don't think there has really been an articulation from protesters as to what they want policy-wise. Honestly, I think a lot of this has to do with the national political environment, as obviously Trump doesn't care about them and gained considerable political capital by being the "anti-BLM" candidate. Honestly, if I was protesting anyone, it would Kim Gardner for botching the prosecution in horrific fashion. If people are wondering why there haven't been more successful prosecutions of police officers in St. Louis, the person who has pretty much single handedly destroyed the circuit attorney's office by driving off all the experienced prosecutors for political reasons is probably a good person to start inquiring about.

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PostSep 19, 2017#65

Ebsy wrote:
Sep 19, 2017
moorlander wrote:
Sep 19, 2017
So what's and acceptable result for the protestors? I'd like to see lyda extend the olive branch to the protest leaders and lead the effort to end police brutality and increase police accountability. Protest leaders should also be included in the selection of the new police chief.
I don't think there has really been an articulation from protesters as to what they want policy-wise. Honestly, I think a lot of this has to do with the national political environment, as obviously Trump doesn't care about them and gained considerable political capital by being the "anti-BLM" candidate. Honestly, if I was protesting anyone, it would Kim Gardner for botching the prosecution in horrific fashion. If people are wondering why there haven't been more successful prosecutions of police officers in St. Louis, the person who has pretty much single handedly destroyed the circuit attorney's office by driving off all the experienced prosecutors for political reasons is probably a good person to start inquiring about.
That's an excellent point and I believe it runs even deeper. Jennifer Joyce arguably should have never prosecuted this case after the DOJ passed on it. There wasn't enough evidence to satisfy the burden of proof, especially for a 1st degree murder conviction. The verdict was inevitable and she pushed to prosecute it fully aware that she wouldn't be in her office when it came to trial.

I served as the jury foreman for a murder trial in the city 5 years ago. The instructions to convict are very clear, but what constitutes a moment of cool reflection is not. It was highly unlikely that Judge Wilson was going to be able to determine that Jason Stockley had a moment of cool reflection during a high speed police chase. Without a moment of cool reflection there is no 1st degree murder conviction.

I understand why people are upset, they have every right to be. I'm upset. This is messy, emotional, and exposes a lot of wounds in our community. However, emotion shouldn't cloud facts and whether you like the verdict or not the legal system operated as it is set-up to do in this case.

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PostSep 19, 2017#66

Ebsy wrote:
Sep 19, 2017
moorlander wrote:
Sep 19, 2017
So what's and acceptable result for the protestors? I'd like to see lyda extend the olive branch to the protest leaders and lead the effort to end police brutality and increase police accountability. Protest leaders should also be included in the selection of the new police chief.
I don't think there has really been an articulation from protesters as to what they want policy-wise. Honestly, I think a lot of this has to do with the national political environment, as obviously Trump doesn't care about them and gained considerable political capital by being the "anti-BLM" candidate. Honestly, if I was protesting anyone, it would Kim Gardner for botching the prosecution in horrific fashion. If people are wondering why there haven't been more successful prosecutions of police officers in St. Louis, the person who has pretty much single handedly destroyed the circuit attorney's office by driving off all the experienced prosecutors for political reasons is probably a good person to start inquiring about.
Again, effect but not the cause.

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PostSep 19, 2017#67

^^What was the circuit attorney's office doing before so successfully before Gardner took office?

And how is a prosecution supposed to convince one man when he has opinions like "An urban heroin dealer not in possession of a firearm would be an anomaly,"?

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PostSep 19, 2017#68

So what's the cause? I actually read the 30-page judgement. My conclusion is that there needs to be some sight of civilian review board. But Judge Wilson made the right call with his judgement.

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PostSep 19, 2017#69

Though Wilson seems extremely biased, he may have made the right legal decision based on precedent and law. So those are two things that need changed (precedent obviously takes a case to change).

We all deserve to be innocent until proven guilty, but their defense of "I felt in danger" essentially takes them off the hook every single time. That's all they have to say. They don't even have to say they thought the victim had a gun (though it helps). They just have to say they felt scared. Boom. Off the hook.

You see the occasionally in the civilian world (I'm thinking George Zimmerman here), but not with the guaranteed success rate as with police officers. In fact, most officers never wind up charged because of this defense.

We need judges and prosecutors to be less lenient with it. We may need something on the books to change it. And perhaps we need a new crime for officers created altogether. Maybe Stockley shouldn't have been charge for 1st degree murder because maybe he did feel scared. Maybe there should be an "abuse of power with a deadly weapon" crime that carries a 5-10 year term or something.

But police throughout the country and especially in St. Louis continue to respond too violently to threats that don't warrant it, AND it's disproportionately affecting the African-American population. Real action has to be taken to address that.

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PostSep 19, 2017#70

jstriebel wrote:
Sep 19, 2017
Though Wilson seems extremely biased, he may have made the right legal decision based on precedent and law. So those are two things that need changed (precedent obviously takes a case to change).

We all deserve to be innocent until proven guilty, but their defense of "I felt in danger" essentially takes them off the hook every single time. That's all they have to say. They don't even have to say they thought the victim had a gun (though it helps). They just have to say they felt scared. Boom. Off the hook.

You see the occasionally in the civilian world (I'm thinking George Zimmerman here), but not with the guaranteed success rate as with police officers. In fact, most officers never wind up charged because of this defense.

We need judges and prosecutors to be less lenient with it. We may need something on the books to change it. And perhaps we need a new crime for officers created altogether. Maybe Stockley shouldn't have been charge for 1st degree murder because maybe he did feel scared. Maybe there should be an "abuse of power with a deadly weapon" crime that carries a 5-10 year term or something.

But police throughout the country and especially in St. Louis continue to respond too violently to threats that don't warrant it, AND it's disproportionately affecting the African-American population. Real action has to be taken to address that.
+1

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PostSep 19, 2017#71

whitherSTL wrote:
Sep 19, 2017
So what's the cause? I actually read the 30-page judgement. My conclusion is that there needs to be some sight of civilian review board. But Judge Wilson made the right call with his judgement.
I read the verdict and the prosecutor's and defendant's briefs and here are my thoughts:

1. The prosecution clearly did not establish, beyond a reasonable doubt, the elements of the alleged crime. 10 out of 10 judges would have reached the same conclusion.
2. The prosecution was either inept (the quality of the defendant's brief was significantly better than the prosecution's and, as the judge pointed out, some of the prosecution's own witnesses did not support the prosecution's version of the events) or there weren't really the provable facts necessary to support the charge. I suspect the latter was why the feds didn't file any charges.
3. Jennifer Joyce deserves a lot of blame for this whole fiasco.
4. The fail-safes in the justice system worked for Stockley, a white policeman. Those same fail-safes in the justice system cannot be counted on to save a black person wrongly suspected of or charged with a crime because of society's bias.

I have no clue how to cure society's bias against minorities and, unfortunately, I think politicians and protesters that focus on false narratives of individual cases may breed more division.

With respect to reducing the occurrence of police shootings, I think it would greatly help if we had more minority police officers and a better involvement by the police in the community. Based on what I read in the court materials, I'm not sure Stockley saw much difference between his past role as a soldier in Iraq and a policemen in North St. Louis. Obviously, both are extremely stressful jobs, but the police won't be effective if they view themselves as soldiers occupying enemy territory. If, instead of Stockley, there was a minority police officer who felt more comfortable in his surroundings approaching Smith, maybe the situation could have been diffused before shots were fired.

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PostSep 19, 2017#72

^ totally agree. Jennifer Joyce threw those charges out there as either a political stunt or to soothe her conscience. And we must remember, a DOJ headed by Eric Holder under the Obama Administration chose not to prosecute civil rights charges.

We need more Dan Isom's in the world.

Also, we need not forget that this man rammed a police cruiser, led cops on an 85 mile per hour chase and most likely was dealing heroin.

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PostSep 19, 2017#73

whitherSTL wrote:
Sep 19, 2017


Also, we need not forget that this man rammed a police cruiser, led cops on an 85 mile per hour chase and most likely was dealing heroin.
:roll:

JFC

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PostSep 19, 2017#74

Yeah Joyce obviously charged Stockley knowing it would not be her responsibility to prosecute the guy, though in political terms many people in the office believed Mary Pat Carl was going to win the Circuit Attorney's race so I'm not sure she did it just to sabotage Gardner. Still, Gardner was the one at the helm for this and she could have downgraded the charges (though that probably would have run into some legal problems) and she is the one ultimately responsible for the arguments made in court, which as those with more expertise than I have said, were exceedingly poor in quality.

I'm in total agreement with the statements above that there probably needs to be a new crime for police officers that use excessive force because they were "scared". Unfortunately, the chance of that passing in Missouri in any of our lifetimes is 0.

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PostSep 19, 2017#75

ricke002 wrote:
Sep 19, 2017
whitherSTL wrote:
Sep 19, 2017


Also, we need not forget that this man rammed a police cruiser, led cops on an 85 mile per hour chase and most likely was dealing heroin.
:roll:

JFC
JRRFCAB

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