I hope this doesn't pass as is... there's no urgency here and I'd like to see the new administration work with the Blues on a better plan. And I'm also pretty disappointed in Stillman as it looks as if we're being asked to fund the entire first phase with the Blues investment coming at some undetermined point in the future.... but of course he argues the sales tax increase as Blues contribution. Greedies gonna greed.joelo wrote:Yea if it's to the point where it's risking the credit rating to the city, it's not worth it. I'm with the comptroller, the additional tax is one thing as that's new revenue so it shouldn't be an issue
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There is urgency to get this passed. Many of my close family friends work closely with various entertainment/athletic groups such as LiveNation NCAA etc to help bring acts and events to St Louis. I don't think a lot of individuals here understands how crucial this is. They *WILL* stop coming. And in many cases, they already are. This whole "Acts will always come to St Louis because there is a market" is flawed. A musical act or athletic event can make the same, if not more money, in places like Kansas City or Indianapolis. TD Amertirade, Scottrade or whatever you identify it as, is really really lacking. Also, saying this will have no impact on the city isn't true. Losing these events will have an adverse effect on quality of life. This is urgent.STLrainbow wrote:I hope this doesn't pass as is... there's no urgency here and I'd like to see the new administration work with the Blues on a better plan. And I'm also pretty disappointed in Stillman as it looks as if we're being asked to fund the entire first phase with the Blues investment coming at some undetermined point in the future.... but of course he argues the sales tax increase as Blues contribution. Greedies gonna greed.joelo wrote:Yea if it's to the point where it's risking the credit rating to the city, it's not worth it. I'm with the comptroller, the additional tax is one thing as that's new revenue so it shouldn't be an issue
Also I saw previously that Chaifetz was named as a possible alternate venue. This would be a hopeful thought, except many large headlining groups want an arena with 15,000+ seats, where as Chaifetz is just around 10,000. Chaifetz is STILL very competitive in regards to NCAA/Athletic events, as it has hosted various Olympic trials in years past, and hosted the VISA Women's National Championship for gymnastics this last year.Chalupas54 wrote:There is urgency to get this passed. Many of my close family friends work closely with various entertainment/athletic groups such as LiveNation NCAA etc to help bring acts and events to St Louis. I don't think a lot of individuals here understands how crucial this is. They *WILL* stop coming. And in many cases, they already are. This whole "Acts will always come to St Louis because there is a market" is flawed. A musical act or athletic event can make the same, if not more money, in places like Kansas City or Indianapolis. TD Amertirade, Scottrade or whatever you identify it as, is really really lacking. Also, saying this will have no impact on the city isn't true. Losing these events will have an adverse effect on quality of life. This is urgent.STLrainbow wrote:I hope this doesn't pass as is... there's no urgency here and I'd like to see the new administration work with the Blues on a better plan. And I'm also pretty disappointed in Stillman as it looks as if we're being asked to fund the entire first phase with the Blues investment coming at some undetermined point in the future.... but of course he argues the sales tax increase as Blues contribution. Greedies gonna greed.joelo wrote:Yea if it's to the point where it's risking the credit rating to the city, it's not worth it. I'm with the comptroller, the additional tax is one thing as that's new revenue so it shouldn't be an issue
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
There is urgency to get this passed. Many of my close family friends work closely with various entertainment/athletic groups such as LiveNation NCAA etc to help bring acts and events to St Louis. I don't think a lot of individuals here understands how crucial this is. They *WILL* stop coming. And in many cases, they already are. This whole "Acts will always come to St Louis because there is a market" is flawed. A musical act or athletic event can make the same, if not more money, in places like Kansas City or Indianapolis. TD Amertirade, Scottrade or whatever you identify it as, is really really lacking. Also, saying this will have no impact on the city isn't true. Losing these events will have an adverse effect on quality of life. This is urgent.
A musical act will still come to St. Louis, do you honestly think an artist will skip St. Louis because of a somewhat older arena? If it's untapped revenue they'll still come and we have a stadium for almost every size event. From Chaifetz, Scott Trade, to the Dome there is plenty of choices to pick for a venue.. Athletic events is one thing that we could potentially lose but again how many events is that compared to the costs that they're asking? It's the same thing with MLS. Yes it'll bring revenue but not worth the cost they are asking.
I say let the Blues use the 1% additional sales tax for whatever they want in the stadium and that's it.
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I respect your view but I have to agree with joelo that we need to relax a bit here.... Scottrade isn't a dump and acts will continue to come here. Things may not be optimal and maybe some marginal drop off will occur over time but we've only seen an increase in attendance in recent years at Scottrade as it remains an attractive venue. Rushing things is not the way to go... let's get things right for once and ensure that we get the best deal we can as we in good faith work to see that Scottrade has a bright future... surely the plan before us is not the best we can get.Chalupas54 wrote: There is urgency to get this passed. Many of my close family friends work closely with various entertainment/athletic groups such as LiveNation NCAA etc to help bring acts and events to St Louis. I don't think a lot of individuals here understands how crucial this is. They *WILL* stop coming. And in many cases, they already are. This whole "Acts will always come to St Louis because there is a market" is flawed. A musical act or athletic event can make the same, if not more money, in places like Kansas City or Indianapolis. TD Amertirade, Scottrade or whatever you identify it as, is really really lacking. Also, saying this will have no impact on the city isn't true. Losing these events will have an adverse effect on quality of life. This is urgent.
Kevin Johnson of the P-D has a timely look at the concert season ahead...
http://www.stltoday.com/entertainment/m ... um=twitter
2017 is already shaping up to be a stellar year for St. Louis concerts. Here are some of the acts we’re looking forward to in the coming months, including Guns N’ Roses, Sting, Chris Rock, Red Hot Chili Peppers, Bon Jovi, the Lumineers, Norah Jones, Tim McGraw and Faith Hill, Mike Epps, Steve Martin and Martin Short, Tom Petty & the Heartbreakers, Steve Aoki, and Lionel Richie with special guest Mariah Carey...
It's abundantly clear to me that we're doing just fine w concerts b/w Scottrade and the other venues we have in the city. I checked KC's Sprint Center's 2017 events and they aren't getting anything of note that we aren't getting with the exception of maybe a Bruno Mars date (which may be announced here later); it's almost all the same stuff. Same with Banker's Life in Indy. (Sprint Center has some events there that will be held in other venues in our city, like The Lumineers at Chaifetz and Monster Jam at the Dome as well as some smaller stuff like Sesame Street Live that go the Peabody here.) Again we can't let Scottrade become a dump but the sky certainly isn't falling by any means and we should take our time to get things right.
http://www.stltoday.com/entertainment/m ... um=twitter
2017 is already shaping up to be a stellar year for St. Louis concerts. Here are some of the acts we’re looking forward to in the coming months, including Guns N’ Roses, Sting, Chris Rock, Red Hot Chili Peppers, Bon Jovi, the Lumineers, Norah Jones, Tim McGraw and Faith Hill, Mike Epps, Steve Martin and Martin Short, Tom Petty & the Heartbreakers, Steve Aoki, and Lionel Richie with special guest Mariah Carey...
It's abundantly clear to me that we're doing just fine w concerts b/w Scottrade and the other venues we have in the city. I checked KC's Sprint Center's 2017 events and they aren't getting anything of note that we aren't getting with the exception of maybe a Bruno Mars date (which may be announced here later); it's almost all the same stuff. Same with Banker's Life in Indy. (Sprint Center has some events there that will be held in other venues in our city, like The Lumineers at Chaifetz and Monster Jam at the Dome as well as some smaller stuff like Sesame Street Live that go the Peabody here.) Again we can't let Scottrade become a dump but the sky certainly isn't falling by any means and we should take our time to get things right.
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What are the reasons for a 1% tax versus simply raising prices? Seems like they want a tax on themselves, but of course they already control their own prices.
I can somewhat see the logic of the Blues looking at the 1% tax as their contribution, but it isn't really that simple. The city takes a public perception hit in levying a tax, so the Blues are clearly gaining some goodwill as part of the bargain here (or not losing it).
I can somewhat see the logic of the Blues looking at the 1% tax as their contribution, but it isn't really that simple. The city takes a public perception hit in levying a tax, so the Blues are clearly gaining some goodwill as part of the bargain here (or not losing it).
Tax purposes I assume. By raising prices, it's additional revenue while the tax probably is tax deductible
edit: Basically the current plan seems to be is increasing revenue for the Blues. They want higher end luxury areas and upgrading the seating so at least they can command higher prices. I don't see it benefiting the city in any way
edit: Basically the current plan seems to be is increasing revenue for the Blues. They want higher end luxury areas and upgrading the seating so at least they can command higher prices. I don't see it benefiting the city in any way
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Per Alderman Conway at the Shaw Neighborhood Meeting, MLS will get a city hearing, but for all intents and purposes, is dead.
He also, interestingly, said this was the case with the Scottrade bill in its current form. He chairs Ways & Means, where both bills will go.
He also, interestingly, said this was the case with the Scottrade bill in its current form. He chairs Ways & Means, where both bills will go.
Good, there should be no rush for the Scott Trade deal. Blues aren't going anywhere and they can work out the details for this all year if need be especially if they're asking for that much money.
Is this due to, in any way, the lingering bitterness over the way Stan left and took the Rams with him? It seems like a massive change in the city culture to go from wanting to give away nearly $500 million to the Rams to now nothing for MLS and for the Blues (which unlike the Rams are a civic institution).andrewarkills wrote: ↑Jan 10, 2017Per Alderman Conway at the Shaw Neighborhood Meeting, MLS will get a city hearing, but for all intents and purposes, is dead.
He also, interestingly, said this was the case with the Scottrade bill in its current form. He chairs Ways & Means, where both bills will go.
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Probably not. I think the City is just being more realistic with how much it can hand out to sports teams. It can't be an open wallet that gives infinitely. I think the city wasn't exactly thrilled to give away nearly $500 million to keep the Rams, but it didn't want to play complete hard ball either. Some cities are not caving to owners' requests like they used to (see San Diego and Oakland) while others still are (Minneapolis and Atlanta). Especially if the financial burden will rely on the city only and the surrounding counties won't help. Good on St. Louis for taking things slower and actually looking at sports teams as business investments. Intangible benefits for the entire region shouldn't be paid for by the city only.
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http://www.stltoday.com/sports/hockey/p ... adbee.html
Goodbye Hitch. I think Ken Hitchcock got an unfair shake, when Doug Armstrong decided to change the identity of the team from tough/heavy to fast. After his offseason decisions, the Blues were neither. Now we have a team barely in the playoff picture. I think Armstrong must go. He has put this franchise in a hole with his bad trades (Oshie, Ryan Miller & Ben Bishop for example), terrible signings (Lehtera, JBo, Allen, Steen (on the decline) and decisions like letting Backes walk with guys like Lehtera and JBo remain on the roster, eating up cap space. While I am all for a coaching change, this team is failing because of personnel decisions, not coaching. Last thing, Muller should have been the coach in waiting, but that is not to say I dislike Mike Yeo. Very disappointing that the Blues were so close last year and now in essence, are about to go into a sort of rebuilding mode. While the pieces are there, a lot of new pieces have to be filled to get back to the top of the Western Conference.
Goodbye Hitch. I think Ken Hitchcock got an unfair shake, when Doug Armstrong decided to change the identity of the team from tough/heavy to fast. After his offseason decisions, the Blues were neither. Now we have a team barely in the playoff picture. I think Armstrong must go. He has put this franchise in a hole with his bad trades (Oshie, Ryan Miller & Ben Bishop for example), terrible signings (Lehtera, JBo, Allen, Steen (on the decline) and decisions like letting Backes walk with guys like Lehtera and JBo remain on the roster, eating up cap space. While I am all for a coaching change, this team is failing because of personnel decisions, not coaching. Last thing, Muller should have been the coach in waiting, but that is not to say I dislike Mike Yeo. Very disappointing that the Blues were so close last year and now in essence, are about to go into a sort of rebuilding mode. While the pieces are there, a lot of new pieces have to be filled to get back to the top of the Western Conference.
Totally disagree. I like Hitch and agree about it not being a good way to go but our system on defense is not working. I was actually talking to some friends before the break about how long they would wait to let him go if things continued the same. Either the players weren't able to do what he wanted or it wasn't the right idea. Opposing players would skate in unhindered, late man would skate in with coverage trailing behind, confusion as to who should play the puck, fancy pass attempts leading to not clearing the zone, lack of hustle to retrieve pucks, etc. Sure our goalies let in some soft ones but a vast majority is due to defense.DogtownBnR wrote: ↑Feb 01, 2017http://www.stltoday.com/sports/hockey/p ... adbee.html
Goodbye Hitch. I think Ken Hitchcock got an unfair shake, when Doug Armstrong decided to change the identity of the team from tough/heavy to fast. After his offseason decisions, the Blues were neither. Now we have a team barely in the playoff picture. I think Armstrong must go. He has put this franchise in a hole with his bad trades (Oshie, Ryan Miller & Ben Bishop for example), terrible signings (Lehtera, JBo, Allen, Steen (on the decline) and decisions like letting Backes walk with guys like Lehtera and JBo remain on the roster, eating up cap space. While I am all for a coaching change, this team is failing because of personnel decisions, not coaching. Last thing, Muller should have been the coach in waiting, but that is not to say I dislike Mike Yeo. Very disappointing that the Blues were so close last year and now in essence, are about to go into a sort of rebuilding mode. While the pieces are there, a lot of new pieces have to be filled to get back to the top of the Western Conference.
The trades were understandable, and the signings good. Are you seriously saying that Steen was a bad signing? Allen had great years here and was leading the league with Sv% and now people are saying that he is the worst goalie in the world. Lehtera isn't good for the role that he has been put in. Tarasenko needs a big body to play on his line to give him space, cause he can't create it himself. I don't understand the Bouwmeester hate either. He's a great defender and I would rather have him than a Shatty. The offense-minded defenders only work when your team works well together defensively and can get the puck out.
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^Hitch's system is not designed for the type of team we have. While I agree, the defense has let down the goalies, the goaltending has been awful. IF you have played the game, (maybe you have) you know how demoralizing it is when your goalie lets in even ONE softie per game. Allen has been letting in several per game lately. This team is not a big team like last year, nor is it a fast team like they want to be. They are somewhere in the middle and that does not work for the dump and chase style, that requires big players to bang in the corners and get in front of the net. Why do you think Backes and Brouwer were so successful in Hitch's system! This team has no net-front presence, not much grit on lines 1-3 and not much grit on D. The Ben Bishop trade was horrible, especially since at the time, the Blues didn't have a true #1. Jake was the heir-apparent, but he was not proven. NHL GM's love Jake since he started for Canada in the World Juniors. He was pulled in the championship game. Not saying Jake can't be good, but if he was going to be elite, he should already be moving in that direction.
The problem with Doug Armstrong is he gives too many guys in their declining years long contracts that kill the cap number, has made some suspect trades for goaltenders (Bishop and Miller come to mind) and lets guys like Backes walk, when Lehtera and others take up cap space with no production.
Steen was great in the past, but is on the decline, mainly due to past injuries. I have no issue with the signing itself, besides the fact that he signed for too many years. Schwartz might be better, once the Blues transition to that fast team they aim to be.
Allen was never proven as a true #1 in the past. I'm not sure how you can say he was proven when Army gave him a long term deal. He had succeeded at all levels, but was unproven as a true #1. If you recall, he lost his job last year to Brian Elliott, who led the Blues into the Western Conf. Finals for the first time since 2001. Again, not sure where your blind confidence in Jake comes from. He was never proven over the long haul. He always shared time with Brian Elliott, then finally this year got his chance to be a true #1. The Blues have the worst save % since Tampa in 2008. He had a great save % knowing that he had Brian Elliott to bail him out if needed. Now that he does not have a safety net like Elliott, he is a head case. He cannot keep it together as a true #1. I hope it is just a phase. I just think he may eventually need a change of scenery.
Lehtera is not worth the money. I wouldn't mind keeping him for way less, but he kills our cap number and the production is way below the cost. I don't really care where he is in the line-up, he is getting paid too much. J-Bo is a good defender. Again, the hate comes from the elite defenseman salary that he gets, for what you get in return. You get a good defender with ZERO grit or physicality, ZERO offense and no shot from the point. Again, good defender, but not worth the money and the cap hit. Lots of good defensive-defenseman in the NHL for less money. It is all about money in the salary-cap NHL. Shatty is a luxury d-man, assuming you have lots of other good defenders. He controls the power play. He will be gone before the trade deadline and they will get little in return. That is too bad.
The problem with Doug Armstrong is he gives too many guys in their declining years long contracts that kill the cap number, has made some suspect trades for goaltenders (Bishop and Miller come to mind) and lets guys like Backes walk, when Lehtera and others take up cap space with no production.
Steen was great in the past, but is on the decline, mainly due to past injuries. I have no issue with the signing itself, besides the fact that he signed for too many years. Schwartz might be better, once the Blues transition to that fast team they aim to be.
Allen was never proven as a true #1 in the past. I'm not sure how you can say he was proven when Army gave him a long term deal. He had succeeded at all levels, but was unproven as a true #1. If you recall, he lost his job last year to Brian Elliott, who led the Blues into the Western Conf. Finals for the first time since 2001. Again, not sure where your blind confidence in Jake comes from. He was never proven over the long haul. He always shared time with Brian Elliott, then finally this year got his chance to be a true #1. The Blues have the worst save % since Tampa in 2008. He had a great save % knowing that he had Brian Elliott to bail him out if needed. Now that he does not have a safety net like Elliott, he is a head case. He cannot keep it together as a true #1. I hope it is just a phase. I just think he may eventually need a change of scenery.
Lehtera is not worth the money. I wouldn't mind keeping him for way less, but he kills our cap number and the production is way below the cost. I don't really care where he is in the line-up, he is getting paid too much. J-Bo is a good defender. Again, the hate comes from the elite defenseman salary that he gets, for what you get in return. You get a good defender with ZERO grit or physicality, ZERO offense and no shot from the point. Again, good defender, but not worth the money and the cap hit. Lots of good defensive-defenseman in the NHL for less money. It is all about money in the salary-cap NHL. Shatty is a luxury d-man, assuming you have lots of other good defenders. He controls the power play. He will be gone before the trade deadline and they will get little in return. That is too bad.
Looks like Scottrade Center bill back on track
http://www.stltoday.com/news/local/metr ... 8e3dc.html
Major financing proposals for renovations to Scottrade Center and construction of a soccer stadium passed the Aldermanic Ways and Means Committee Wednesday night, but with some changes.
Most of the changes applied to the Scottrade Center proposal, which would total $105 million from city funds over 30 years including cash and interest payments. The plan additionally includes $50 million from a Community Improvement District tax on sales at Scottrade Center over the next 30 years.
The amended proposal increased the number of revenue sources for paying off the debt, including $55 million from a 5 percent tax on ticket sales. With debt payments on Kiel Opera House renovations ending in 2021, the $800,000 dedicated annually to that project would shift to Scottrade Center payments thru 2048, totaling about $21 million.
http://www.stltoday.com/news/local/metr ... 8e3dc.html
Major financing proposals for renovations to Scottrade Center and construction of a soccer stadium passed the Aldermanic Ways and Means Committee Wednesday night, but with some changes.
Most of the changes applied to the Scottrade Center proposal, which would total $105 million from city funds over 30 years including cash and interest payments. The plan additionally includes $50 million from a Community Improvement District tax on sales at Scottrade Center over the next 30 years.
The amended proposal increased the number of revenue sources for paying off the debt, including $55 million from a 5 percent tax on ticket sales. With debt payments on Kiel Opera House renovations ending in 2021, the $800,000 dedicated annually to that project would shift to Scottrade Center payments thru 2048, totaling about $21 million.
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Since it passed the improvements are essentially well on their way of happening, correct?
^ Believe that was Ways & Means committee. I think it still requires BoA vote. Someone please correct me if I got the wrong.
One thing I'm not completely sure. Scottrade is BofA vote for approval, done deal where as MLS stadium is ballot vote that still requires BoA approval as well as a judge to waive 10 week rule to get on next ballot. Believe that is correct summary of current standing on stadium bills
One thing I'm not completely sure. Scottrade is BofA vote for approval, done deal where as MLS stadium is ballot vote that still requires BoA approval as well as a judge to waive 10 week rule to get on next ballot. Believe that is correct summary of current standing on stadium bills
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This is one of the most well written articles, summing up the Armstrong era. I think it hits the nail on the head. Great read! I just wonder why Doug Armstrong rarely takes much heat for the awful moves he has made.
http://sports.yahoo.com/news/what-we-le ... 47323.html
http://sports.yahoo.com/news/what-we-le ... 47323.html
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With the help of $65 million in funding from the city of St. Louis and $90 million of their own money, the Blues will spend the next three summers renovating the 23-year-old facility.
http://stlouis.cbslocal.com/2017/05/09/ ... ext-month/
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
http://stlouis.cbslocal.com/2017/05/09/ ... ext-month/
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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For the record, here's their top five:DogtownBnR wrote: ↑Jun 12, 2017#5... Not bad!!!
http://www.riverfronttimes.com/artsblog ... a=AMP+HTML
Code: Select all
Overall Rank | City | Total | ‘NHL’ | ‘NCAA’
(1 = Best) | | Score | Rank | Rank
-------------|------------------------|-------|--------
1 | Detroit, MI | 63.07 | 1 | 56
2 | Boston, MA | 62.07 | 3 | 1
3 | Pittsburgh, PA | 58.17 | 2 | 20
4 | Anaheim, CA | 49.83 | 4 | 56
5 | St. Louis, MO | 49.03 | 5 | 56 -RBBIn order to determine the best cities for hockey fans, WalletHub’s analysts compared 72 U.S. cities across two divisional categories, including NHL (Division I Men’s) and NCAA (Division I Men’s). For our sample, we chose cities with at least one college or professional hockey team.
We evaluated each divisional category using 19 relevant metrics, which are listed below with their corresponding weights. Each metric was graded on a 100-point scale, with a score of 100 representing the most favorable conditions for hockey fans. The weight for each divisional category is based on its popularity, which we determined by summing the number of “Likes” for all the teams in each category and calculating the proportion that each league represents in total.
We then calculated the total score for each city based on its weighted average across all metrics and used the resulting scores to construct our final ranking.
NHL – Total Points: 80
- Number of NHL Teams: Full Weight (~10.00 Points)
Note: This metric was calculated by dividing the number of wins by the total games played. The past three seasons’ average was used for this calculation.
- Performance Level of NHL Teams: Full Weight (~10.00 Points)
- Number of Stanley Cup Wins: Full Weight (~10.00 Points)
- Number of NHL Division Championship Wins: Half Weight (~5.00 Points)
Note: This metric measures the team’s estimated value in $million.
- Franchise Value: Half Weight (~5.00 Points)
- Average Ticket Price for NHL Game: Full Weight (~10.00 Points)
Note: This metric was calculated by adding the number of Twitter followers to the number of Facebook “Likes” per capita.
- NHL Fan Engagement: Full Weight (~10.00 Points)
- Number of Coaches in Past 10 Seasons (Seasons 2007-08 to 2016-17): Half Weight (~5.00 Points)
Note: This metric was calculated by dividing stadium capacity by city population.
- NHL Stadium Capacity: Half Weight (~5.00 Points)
Note: This metric was calculated by dividing average home-fan attendance by arena capacity.
- Attendance: Half Weight (~5.00 Points)
- Popularity Index: Half Weight (~5.00 Points)
NCAA (Division I Men’s) – Total Points: 20
- Number of NCAA (Division 1) Teams: Full Weight (~3.08 Points)
Note: This metric was calculated by dividing the number of wins by the total games played. The past three seasons’ average was used for this calculation.
- Performance Level of NCAA (Division 1) Team(s): Full Weight (~3.08 Points)
- Number of NCAA (Division 1) Championship Wins: Full Weight (~3.08 Points)
- Number of NCAA (Division 1) Regular Season Championship Wins: Half Weight (~1.54 Points)
- Minimum Season-Ticket Price for NCAA (Division 1) Game: Full Weight (~3.08 Points)
Note: This metric was calculated by adding the number of Twitter followers to the number of Facebook “Likes” per capita.
- College-Hockey Fan Engagement: Full Weight (~3.08 Points)
- Number of Coaches in Past 10 Seasons (Seasons 2007-08 to 2016-17): Half Weight (~1.54 Points)
Note: This metric was calculated by dividing stadium capacity by city population.
- College-Hockey Stadium Capacity: Half Weight (~1.54 Points)
The drama behind the County Ice Plex/Blues practice rink facility certainly getting interesting. At the moment Blues can't win with Scottrade upgrades dispute in litigation because of city treasurer and their new practice rink put on ice, pun intended. However, I'm assuming the County drama will be short lived with the Fed waiver/approval of ice complex under current admin & will only be a matter of time and bonds in hand & city leaders won't hold up Scottrade improvements..
http://www.stltoday.com/news/local/metr ... 3f09f.html
http://www.stltoday.com/news/local/metr ... 3f09f.html