I only ride 1-2 a month, usually to the Airport or Downtown, but lately have been taking Uber not necessarily in fear but as a protest to the leadership and security situation.
Really? I'm not saying Metro doesn't have it's issues and that things don't need to be fixed. The Delmar Station is out of control and has been so for years. DeBalivier is also a dump of station with too much bad stuff going on. I swear Metro and the City Police have surrendered that station. But near constant crime on a 20 minute ride?bprop wrote: ↑Mar 21, 2017"I understand that the rate of extreme violence is low when considering the millions that ride Metro each year"
How do you know that? I witness more crime in a single average 20 minutes of riding Metro than I do on the street during the course of an entire day. That includes crime like assault and drug dealing. Maybe that's not "extreme violence" but step it up to gunshots and murder, and I'd contend that while Metro may have less crime than an average night in North St. Louis, crime on the system is indeed much higher than the region as a whole. And certainly Metro's dubious claims of a low crime rate aren't limited to just extreme violence.
Your post is good and well-taken, but we need to stop hand waving the crime and taking Metro's statements at face value. They're undeniably false.
You could tell they've stepped things up since Sunday night. Both yesterday and this morning they had a guard in the morning checking tickets.
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As someone who lives quite close to the DeBaliviere station, I can't disagree with this statement. Lyda Krewson once organized a neighborhood meeting with police and metro representatives to talk through the issues at the station and it went about as poorly as you'd imagine. Many people wanted turnstiles added at the station. Metro didn't believe there was space for them and didn't seem to think they'd really change anything. (On that point, I agree with them as the problem at the DeBaliviere station is as much about the environment around the station as it is about the station itself.) Beyond that, Metro said that it hires security guards, but relies on city and county police departments to police the system. They pay the city, at least, to patrol the trains. But Metro didn't seem to have much confidence that the trains are being patrolled on a frequent basis. Notably, the city police officers invited to the meeting departed early without really participating in the discussion.
hiddeninput wrote: ↑Mar 21, 2017As someone who lives quite close to the DeBaliviere station, I can't disagree with this statement. Lyda Krewson once organized a neighborhood meeting with police and metro representatives to talk through the issues at the station and it went about as poorly as you'd imagine. Many people wanted turnstiles added at the station. Metro didn't believe there was space for them and didn't seem to think they'd really change anything. (On that point, I agree with them as the problem at the DeBaliviere station is as much about the environment around the station as it is about the station itself.) Beyond that, Metro said that it hires security guards, but relies on city and county police departments to police the system. They pay the city, at least, to patrol the trains. But Metro didn't seem to have much confidence that the trains are being patrolled on a frequent basis. Notably, the city police officers invited to the meeting departed early without really participating in the discussion.
The only solution for the DeBaliviere and Delmar stations is two full police stationed there 19 hours a day until everyone knows that loitering, drinking, peeing, cursing, gambling won't be tolerated. Right now the one security guards that might be there give zero cares about what is going on.
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linkSTLToday wrote:“We can’t have officers everywhere, but at a time like this, of course we want more resources,” said police Capt. Mary Warnecke at a news conference Monday afternoon. She said “additional resources” were planned for trains during Cardinals games. Opening day is April 2.
That "additional resources for the Cardinals games" statement would totally irk me if I were a daily user of Metro relying on it to get, say, to and from work and for other essential transportation.
It sure as hell does irk me.San Luis Native wrote: ↑Mar 21, 2017linkSTLToday wrote:“We can’t have officers everywhere, but at a time like this, of course we want more resources,” said police Capt. Mary Warnecke at a news conference Monday afternoon. She said “additional resources” were planned for trains during Cardinals games. Opening day is April 2.
That "additional resources for the Cardinals games" statement would totally irk me if I were a daily user of Metro relying on it to get, say, to and from work and for other essential transportation.
dweebe wrote: ↑Mar 21, 2017
Really? I'm not saying Metro doesn't have it's issues and that things don't need to be fixed. The Delmar Station is out of control and has been so for years. DeBalivier is also a dump of station with too much bad stuff going on. I swear Metro and the City Police have surrendered that station. But near constant crime on a 20 minute ride?
You could tell they've stepped things up since Sunday night. Both yesterday and this morning they had a guard in the morning checking tickets.
I read my posts closely to make sure I didn't state something I didn't mean. I never said near constant crime. I said the crime rate on the train is much higher than what I see on an average street during the course of a day. And it is. Some are major like the two assaults I've seen in the past three weeks, some are infractions like selling stolen merchandise, smoking on the train, and gambling scams (two times just last week) . I don't have to even look in another car. I only see what's directly in front of me, and that's it.
It irks me because they don't need additional resources; they need to use the 40+ (?), contracted, full-time, fully-fledged police officers to work the system - the ones that we've already paid for.dweebe wrote: ↑Mar 21, 2017It sure as hell does irk me.San Luis Native wrote: ↑Mar 21, 2017linkSTLToday wrote:“We can’t have officers everywhere, but at a time like this, of course we want more resources,” said police Capt. Mary Warnecke at a news conference Monday afternoon. She said “additional resources” were planned for trains during Cardinals games. Opening day is April 2.
That "additional resources for the Cardinals games" statement would totally irk me if I were a daily user of Metro relying on it to get, say, to and from work and for other essential transportation.
Just like the downtown CID having to hire off duty officers to work what is effectively private security. Mind blowing and disgusting.
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It's hard not to read into a statement like this the idea that it's more important to the police to protect the folks coming into the city for a ballgame than it is to protect the people who live and/or work here every day. And even if that's not what is meant by the statement, it certainly will be the outcome. Policing in St. Louis is a zero sum game. There are only so many police officers and only so many dollars we have to spend on them. Extra resources on game days mean fewer resources on other days.dweebe wrote: ↑Mar 21, 2017It sure as hell does irk me.San Luis Native wrote: ↑Mar 21, 2017linkSTLToday wrote:“We can’t have officers everywhere, but at a time like this, of course we want more resources,” said police Capt. Mary Warnecke at a news conference Monday afternoon. She said “additional resources” were planned for trains during Cardinals games. Opening day is April 2.
That "additional resources for the Cardinals games" statement would totally irk me if I were a daily user of Metro relying on it to get, say, to and from work and for other essential transportation.
I understand the need for police at the Stadium and Civic Center stations to control crowds on game days. But not to be standing there putting on theater for suburbanites.hiddeninput wrote: ↑Mar 21, 2017It's hard not to read into a statement like this the idea that it's more important to the police to protect the folks coming into the city for a ballgame than it is to protect the people who live and/or work here every day. And even if that's not what is meant by the statement, it certainly will be the outcome. Policing in St. Louis is a zero sum game. There are only so many police officers and only so many dollars we have to spend on them. Extra resources on game days mean fewer resources on other days.dweebe wrote: ↑Mar 21, 2017It sure as hell does irk me.San Luis Native wrote: ↑Mar 21, 2017
link
That "additional resources for the Cardinals games" statement would totally irk me if I were a daily user of Metro relying on it to get, say, to and from work and for other essential transportation.
http://stlouis.cbslocal.com/2017/03/21/ ... -security/Metrolink’s Bi-State Development President and CEO John Nations agrees people are rattled.
...
He says those patrols are paid for by transit funds, even if it’s city or county police making the rounds, and Nations says riders should be asking those police chiefs what they plan to do to reduce crime on the rails.
No - "riders" didn't sign the contract with the police agencies that has no accountability to Metro. "Riders" didn't stay silent for years while security deteriorated. "Riders" are not responsible for administering transit money. Metro is.
Another ridiculous statement by this POS. Even with the ultimate realization that it is the police that need to step up the game, Metro is the steward of the transit system and its safety.
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^ you love to rail on Metro for the police not doing their job. what alternatives do they have? they can't hire their own police force. security guards don't do sh*t. should they just say "F*ck it. We're just not gonna pay for any police."? how would that go over? what do you suggest they do?
the ultimate--and obvious--realization is that since Metro has no other options the police need to do the f*cking job that they're taking taxpayer money for and not doing. and if they can't adequately do the job they shouldn't be signing the damn contract and taking the money. you can't use "it's just business" to excuse this one. they're public servants.
the ultimate--and obvious--realization is that since Metro has no other options the police need to do the f*cking job that they're taking taxpayer money for and not doing. and if they can't adequately do the job they shouldn't be signing the damn contract and taking the money. you can't use "it's just business" to excuse this one. they're public servants.
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Shouldn't the local politicians and powers that be have one huge incentive to solve this issue? Mainly that if they can't solve the crime issue there is a real chance of State and/or Federal intervention in the form of National Guard patrolling the streets as a police force? I can't put it past the Governor and the President has hinted at this. That should scare the local officials and residents into doing something and fast.
I don't "love" to rail (hehe) on Metro. In fact, I'd just like to ride without witnessing this bull **** every week, day in and day out.urban_dilettante wrote: ↑Mar 22, 2017^ you love to rail on Metro for the police not doing their job. what alternatives do they have? they can't hire their own police force. security guards don't do sh*t. should they just say "F*ck it. We're just not gonna pay for any police."? how would that go over? what do you suggest they do?
the ultimate--and obvious--realization is that since Metro has no other options the police need to do the f*cking job that they're taking taxpayer money for and not doing. and if they can't adequately do the job they shouldn't be signing the damn contract and taking the money. you can't use "it's just business" to excuse this one. they're public servants.
If Metro isn't getting what they are paying for, and the system is suffering, they need to be raising holy hell - and should have been for years - in the media, with area leaders, on socia media, taking police departments to task for not doing the job.
In addition, they need to be very forthcoming about why they signed a contract with three police agencies over which they, apparently, have no oversight or control. Sure, they're obligated to use the police departments for protection, but did anything preclude them from basic measuring and reporting of police response on the system? They don't answer this question (and I've asked, directly).
Instead, we get PR-honed messages about how many riders ride Metro and how rare crime is, and how much additional security they've hired when it's plain to any seeing person that they haven't done any such thing.
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Serious question here, couldn't Metro opt out of its pre-existing agreements with the city and county and instead opt to pay for agencies such the IL and MO state police instead?
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Even if they could, would those entities be interested in taking that on?chaifetz10 wrote: ↑Mar 22, 2017Serious question here, couldn't Metro opt out of its pre-existing agreements with the city and county and instead opt to pay for agencies such the IL and MO state police instead?
chaifetz10 wrote: ↑Mar 22, 2017Serious question here, couldn't Metro opt out of its pre-existing agreements with the city and county and instead opt to pay for agencies such the IL and MO state police instead?
I think it's a good question. I believe the law governing the situation says Metro must use "existing" law enforcement agencies that have jurisdiction. So under that wide definition they would qualify.
My understanding is that St. Clair County actually provides much more visible, frequent service than the other two. So it's really the two missouri agencies that are falling short.
It's also my understanding, at least per the P-D as of December 2015, that StL County and City police are working without a contract.
Interesting article.
Board member: MetroLink safety issues must be fixed
http://www.stltoday.com/news/local/crim ... 2f380.html
A few takeaways:
And finally, the most interesting:
Board member: MetroLink safety issues must be fixed
http://www.stltoday.com/news/local/crim ... 2f380.html
A few takeaways:
How can I express outrage without acting even the least bit surprised?Bi-State Development responded in a letter that it doesn’t “generate and maintain” crime data and police reports, and that it doesn’t have to comply with public-information laws because it’s an interstate compact agency. It operates in Missouri and Illinois.
“In addition, the Agency also reserves the right to close any record at its discretion if the Agency deems such closure to be in the Agency’s best interests,” said that letter, signed by Barbara Enneking, Bi-State’s general counsel and deputy secretary.
So that's interesting. Securitas-branded Security guards all have fluorescent vests that read on back - boldly - 'FARE INSPECTOR.' What do they do if they find someone who hasn't paid a fare?The data indicated a drop in incidents at city MetroLink stops, but that was mostly attributable to the vanishing incidence of farehopping. Since 2015, the records included a total of only five instances of failing to pay a fare in the city.
That’s the year a change in state law and court procedures took effect that allowed only St. Louis County and St. Louis police to write fare evasion summonses on the Metro transit system in Missouri, which led to a significant decline, Metro said.
Federal authorities earlier this year denied a request by Nations that would have allowed Metro public safety and security officers to once again write tickets.
And finally, the most interesting:
Now, I bet there's some fudging going on by Stenger - but I find the $100M a difficult number to swallow as well.A previous estimate showed that adding turnstiles would cost $100 million, something Stenger disputes. He said a $10 million proposal was submitted for turnstiles and facial-recognition technology for MetroLink, although Nations said he has never seen it.
Also from the same article:
"Federal authorities earlier this year denied a request by Nations that would have allowed Metro public safety and security officers to once again write tickets."
Does anyone have a link to an article about this? Why does the federal government have authority in this case?
"Federal authorities earlier this year denied a request by Nations that would have allowed Metro public safety and security officers to once again write tickets."
Does anyone have a link to an article about this? Why does the federal government have authority in this case?
^ I don't, and I'm only speculating here.
But based on this website (
), a fare violation on the Metro system is a misdemeanor. My guess is that there's a blanket law that says such a citation must be given by a law enforcement officer. Think about it, even code violations, at least where I'm at, have to be handled by police officers. Writing an official summons for a misdemeanor should be done by an LEO. My guess is Metro either had or thought they had an exemption to the rule, and don't. But the law isn't aimed at Metro per se.
I don't know why it's under federal jurisdiction.
Just a thought.
But based on this website (
), a fare violation on the Metro system is a misdemeanor. My guess is that there's a blanket law that says such a citation must be given by a law enforcement officer. Think about it, even code violations, at least where I'm at, have to be handled by police officers. Writing an official summons for a misdemeanor should be done by an LEO. My guess is Metro either had or thought they had an exemption to the rule, and don't. But the law isn't aimed at Metro per se.I don't know why it's under federal jurisdiction.
Just a thought.
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It's worth pointing out that metro isn't super interested in prosecuting fare violations. When those violations occur, the fines are paid to the city or county and not to metro. From their perspective, it's a better use of money to get people to buy tickets than it is to capture farehoppers. I would guess their security escorts people without valid tickets off the trains though.
They can ask, but they have no more authority to lay their hands on anyone, or force them off the train, than you or I do.hiddeninput wrote: ↑Mar 24, 2017I would guess their security escorts people without valid tickets off the trains though.
Even when fare inspectors did write citations, I witnessed instances where the violator just sat there and refused to get off the train until their stop, and then just walked away. Usually the fare inspector just gave up and moved on.
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Wouldn't the Debaliviere metro stop at least be an ideal candidate to experiment with a real turnstile? There's only one way to get to and from the platform and it's down a long narrow flight of stairs on each side of the street or am I misremembering something? Turnstiles ARE feasible at some stops and basically impossible at other stops but it's doable at Debaliviere, for starters. There are not huge gaping entrances from multiple access points at Debaliviere. And put one real cop up by the turnstiles.
I understand it's a drop in the bucket system-wide but it would be a feasible step in the right direction at a stop that everyone can agree is not great.
I understand it's a drop in the bucket system-wide but it would be a feasible step in the right direction at a stop that everyone can agree is not great.
If they had to change the whole ticketing system then this is obviously not a good idea....leeharveyawesome wrote: ↑Mar 24, 2017Wouldn't the Debaliviere metro stop at least be an ideal candidate to experiment with a real turnstile? There's only one way to get to and from the platform and it's down a long narrow flight of stairs on each side of the street or am I misremembering something? Turnstiles ARE feasible at some stops and basically impossible at other stops but it's doable at Debaliviere, for starters. There are not huge gaping entrances from multiple access points at Debaliviere. And put one real cop up by the turnstiles.
I understand it's a drop in the bucket system-wide but it would be a feasible step in the right direction at a stop that everyone can agree is not great.
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My understanding is that the placement of the elevators makes it tough to fit in turnstiles that are ADA compliant. I'm no expert though -- I'm just parroting what I've been told.leeharveyawesome wrote: ↑Mar 24, 2017Wouldn't the Debaliviere metro stop at least be an ideal candidate to experiment with a real turnstile?