My friend's car had its windshield busted in while at the German Cultural Society a few minutes ago.
The anti-semitic desecration of a Jewish cemetery in University City has made national headlines.
YTD homicides (February):
2009: 14
2010: 21
2011: 25
2012: 23
2013: 20
2014: 19
2015: 23
2016: 19
2017: 27 with 8 days remaining.
Not a pretty start.
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2009: 14
2010: 21
2011: 25
2012: 23
2013: 20
2014: 19
2015: 23
2016: 19
2017: 27 with 8 days remaining.
Not a pretty start.
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The gravesites of more than 170 Jews were vandalized at a Jewish cemetery in University City, Mo., sometime over the weekend. And on Monday, the Anti-Defamation League reported a wave of bomb threats directed against Jewish Community Centers in multiple states, the fourth series of such threats since the beginning of the year
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/mor ... s-country/
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/mor ... s-country/
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Probably not much. A focus on limiting police powers, failed democratic philosophies, drug trade, and a lack of any will whatsoever to implement a no tolerance policing model probably the bigger reasons.imperialmog wrote:I wonder if the weather is playing a role in this. Mainly the much milder winter.
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^ The lead issue makes sense. And here there is also the added aspect that unlike most places a number of places in the city would have elevated lead levels in the soil from natural occurring sources since there was mining for lead in the city in the past so there is noticeable levels naturally. This would also explain why rural crime rates away from the metro around here tend to be higher (at crime rates more comparable to higher crime areas of the city when scaled for population) due to higher presence in the soils, particularly in counties south of the Missouri river where lead was and still is mined.
Though not sure if this can explain recent rises locally and increasingly nationally.
Though not sure if this can explain recent rises locally and increasingly nationally.
I think Republican and Democratic solutions and philosophies both tend to come up short - especially the Republicans who seem to believe everybody should be locked up and police can do no wrong.downtown2007 wrote: ↑Feb 21, 2017
Probably not much. A focus on limiting police powers, failed democratic philosophies, drug trade, and a lack of any will whatsoever to implement a no tolerance policing model probably the bigger reasons.
There's a number of factors going on here, and I think a milder winter is definitely one factor.
However, there is no major focus or influence to limit police powers, in my opinion. There has been, however, an increased focus on police accountability, which is one of the reasons why many police departments are so resistant to body cams, dash cams etc. Many good police officers put their lives on the line everyday. However, in the age of advanced technology, people are watching and criticizing police actions more and more - as they should.
Most police departments have cultures that are resistant to change; and there are many police departments that are full of rogue officers too. They want to crack heads, beat people, sexually-violate people, falsely arrest people, violate citizen's rights to free speech and assembly, shoot people then pretend they are not a part of the problem. They don't want people questioning their "authority" - even when they are caught on tape abusing people, killing people and breaking the law themselves.
At the end of the day, there's a way to police smarter vs. reactionary and abusively. You can't get people to trust you if you have demonstrated that you are untrustworthy. There are some cops that are just as bad or worse than criminals on the streets. St. Louis has seen this first hand. Yet, the police whine and moan because they can't abuse people like they used to so some of them "check out".
A "no tolerance policing model" usually ends up targeting minorities and the poor and results in unintended consequences like the "broken windows" theory, which is a nice way of implementing social control and fear. A "no tolerance policy model" usually get people like Alton Sterling murdered for selling CD's and Eric Garner strangled to death for selling loose cigarettes. You can't jail and kill every one for violating community ordinances and policies.
Jailing and felonizing people is not the solution to everything.
The problems in St. Louis, I think are the following:
1. Make the police do their jobs - I think Dotson is a nice guy, but Dotson is too lackadaisical and protective when it comes to his cops. There's no way downtown should have as many assaults, shootings and murders as it does. In my opinion, this is indicative of poor policing and a poor police presence. Throughout the city, crooks and criminals seem emboldened because of the lazy and "stand down" posture of the police. Do your job without being trigger-happy, biased and racist.
2. Drug Trade + Gangs - St. Louis is a major point of trade in the drug trade due to its central location. This is what is plaguing Chicago and St. Louis. A regional campaign that lets smugglers, cartels and street couriers know that Metro St. Louis is not a safe place for them should be publicized. What about creating more resources for intense drug PREVENTION and intense gang intervention?
3. A lack of REAL community policing - Where are the visible substations where cops are continuously coming and going in high-crime neighborhoods like Walnut Park, St. Louis Place, parts of JVL, Greater Ville, Fairground and Dutchtown? I know, I know........."It would cost too much". Yet, the city wants to build a taxpayer-funded soccer stadium.
4. Cameras - There are hardly any except in a few areas of town. Police cameras should be PERMANENTLY placed and maintained in high-crime areas and streets.
5. Poverty - Surely not every person in poverty is problematic. However, poverty has been kicking St. Louis' ass for a long time. Until St. Louis SERIOUSLY addresses it poverty woes - it will continue to have gang problems, drug problems, murders, overdoses, venereal disease outbreaks and other crimes etc.
6. Personal Accountability - regardless of whether you are white, black, yellow, green or gold - you are ultimately responsibility for your personal behavior. Involved parent(s), caretaker(s) and mentor(s) are essential. On the other hand, 256 people don't die in fatal heroine overdoses in the city (in one year, mind you) because it is someone else's fault. People made choices. Nonetheless, there's a SERIOUS socio-economic problem in your city when 256 people die in drug overdoses. And by the way, one of them was a second cousin of mine - only 30 years old. It's truly not a black or white issue.
By the way, why didn't the local Medical Examiner and city officials sound the alarm sooner?
7. Community Clean-Up - There are some areas of the city that look like HELLHOLES - abandoned, decaying and dilapidated graffiti covered structures. Some areas are challenged with illegal dumping. When people feel they live in a dump, that's how they treat their blocks, neighborhood AND CITY. I just think the city should do more to remediate area's where this is an obvious problem. Create a team that would remove prominent graffiti, board up structures and pick up trash. Changing citizen's attitudes could go a long way to help curb crime.
At the end of the day, there is no magic or silver bullet to fighting crime, but throwing people in jail and ignoring systemic issues doesn't automatically cure the crime problem. You will keep building jails.
How were those factors (and the others people are citing) different in 2003 when there were 74 homicides?
I suspect the economy - although it was creeping towards the recession - was better then. In other words, jobs. It is a well-known fact that when the economy is good, crime and poverty are lower.
If I am not mistaken, that 74 homicides was an anomaly and it was the lowest in decades. Homicides have been ticking upward annually since.
Still, the recession, I think, helped to give rise to the urban drug and gang turf wars resulting in more homicides in recent years. Cartels were thought of as something below the Southern border and beyond - and not to a great extent in the United States. But now cartels are thought to be more prominent here. I also think different and indifferent police tactics have emerged.
It's sad to think that so many people have died due to gun and other types of violence.
Since 2003, enough people in the region have died to populate a small St. Louis suburb.
If I am not mistaken, that 74 homicides was an anomaly and it was the lowest in decades. Homicides have been ticking upward annually since.
Still, the recession, I think, helped to give rise to the urban drug and gang turf wars resulting in more homicides in recent years. Cartels were thought of as something below the Southern border and beyond - and not to a great extent in the United States. But now cartels are thought to be more prominent here. I also think different and indifferent police tactics have emerged.
It's sad to think that so many people have died due to gun and other types of violence.
Since 2003, enough people in the region have died to populate a small St. Louis suburb.
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^ yeah, the low number of homicides in 2003 was a one-off and the number went back up till about 2008; from 2009 to 2012 there was a decent drop-off but that seems so long ago and distant from where we are now. Community relations, police command, increasing number of guns and whatever the hell is going on with drugs, especially with this heroin/fentanyl epidemic, certainly are things I'd also look at for reasons for the uptick in the past few years.
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My assumption with crime is that the long-term fix is education leading to jobs and that there isn't a great short-term fix. I guess if we could provide jobs to the people currently engaged in the drug trade, that would help. But even then, those jobs would need to pay well enough to make the change an easy one.
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Ever since Dotson has been in charge crime has been apocalyptic and this year we may challenge getting to 200 or above which lord i hope not! Jobs or not these people have no respect for life let alone themselves its so sad that babies are born into these types of environments then resuscitates the cycle. At the end of the day just another day in Lou!
Keep it classy
Keep it classy
I'm not surprised. St. Louis somehow always manages to find ways to embarrass itself when it comes to racism and bias. A long history. Sad. I tell you, as much good you can find, there's just as much evil.
I said it before and I'll say it again, there needs to be an exorcism (of some sort) of evil spirits and a respectful freeing of tired, angry, lost souls that are not at peace (or rest) that are lingering around thus casting a pall of evil, apathy, insecurity and depression over the region. Implore the spirits to leave. Implore them to allow themselves peace and rest.
Call me a kook, but I don't care. I promise you, I don't care.
St. Louis can be a great and beautiful place, but evil spirits and the unrested are reeking havoc on (i.e. influencing)
the environment.
A cop shot and killed a man on California in South City
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I'm not sure that anyone has been able to pinpoint the reason(s) why crime is growing here and in some other cities across the country. I agree with Arch City that there are likely multiple reasons for this rise, but this is not occurring nationally, rather in pockets, predominantly in the midwest (and Baltimore). At the very least, it appears that the leaders of those cities affected by the increase should be working together to develop different strategies to address it.arch city wrote: ↑Feb 21, 2017I think Republican and Democratic solutions and philosophies both tend to come up short - especially the Republicans who seem to believe everybody should be locked up and police can do no wrong.downtown2007 wrote: ↑Feb 21, 2017
Probably not much. A focus on limiting police powers, failed democratic philosophies, drug trade, and a lack of any will whatsoever to implement a no tolerance policing model probably the bigger reasons.
There's a number of factors going on here, and I think a milder winter is definitely one factor.
However, there is no major focus or influence to limit police powers, in my opinion. There has been, however, an increased focus on police accountability, which is one of the reasons why many police departments are so resistant to body cams, dash cams etc. Many good police officers put their lives on the line everyday. However, in the age of advanced technology, people are watching and criticizing police actions more and more - as they should.
Most police departments have cultures that are resistant to change; and there are many police departments that are full of rogue officers too. They want to crack heads, beat people, sexually-violate people, falsely arrest people, violate citizen's rights to free speech and assembly, shoot people then pretend they are not a part of the problem. They don't want people questioning their "authority" - even when they are caught on tape abusing people, killing people and breaking the law themselves.
At the end of the day, there's a way to police smarter vs. reactionary and abusively. You can't get people to trust you if you have demonstrated that you are untrustworthy. There are some cops that are just as bad or worse than criminals on the streets. St. Louis has seen this first hand. Yet, the police whine and moan because they can't abuse people like they used to so some of them "check out".
A "no tolerance policing model" usually ends up targeting minorities and the poor and results in unintended consequences like the "broken windows" theory, which is a nice way of implementing social control and fear. A "no tolerance policy model" usually get people like Alton Sterling murdered for selling CD's and Eric Garner strangled to death for selling loose cigarettes. You can't jail and kill every one for violating community ordinances and policies.
Jailing and felonizing people is not the solution to everything.
The problems in St. Louis, I think are the following:
1. Make the police do their jobs - I think Dotson is a nice guy, but Dotson is too lackadaisical and protective when it comes to his cops. There's no way downtown should have as many assaults, shootings and murders as it does. In my opinion, this is indicative of poor policing and a poor police presence. Throughout the city, crooks and criminals seem emboldened because of the lazy and "stand down" posture of the police. Do your job without being trigger-happy, biased and racist.
2. Drug Trade + Gangs - St. Louis is a major point of trade in the drug trade due to its central location. This is what is plaguing Chicago and St. Louis. A regional campaign that lets smugglers, cartels and street couriers know that Metro St. Louis is not a safe place for them should be publicized. What about creating more resources for intense drug PREVENTION and intense gang intervention?
3. A lack of REAL community policing - Where are the visible substations where cops are continuously coming and going in high-crime neighborhoods like Walnut Park, St. Louis Place, parts of JVL, Greater Ville, Fairground and Dutchtown? I know, I know........."It would cost too much". Yet, the city wants to build a taxpayer-funded soccer stadium.
4. Cameras - There are hardly any except in a few areas of town. Police cameras should be PERMANENTLY placed and maintained in high-crime areas and streets.
5. Poverty - Surely not every person in poverty is problematic. However, poverty has been kicking St. Louis' ass for a long time. Until St. Louis SERIOUSLY addresses it poverty woes - it will continue to have gang problems, drug problems, murders, overdoses, venereal disease outbreaks and other crimes etc.
6. Personal Accountability - regardless of whether you are white, black, yellow, green or gold - you are ultimately responsibility for your personal behavior. Involved parent(s), caretaker(s) and mentor(s) are essential. On the other hand, 256 people don't die in fatal heroine overdoses in the city (in one year, mind you) because it is someone else's fault. People made choices. Nonetheless, there's a SERIOUS socio-economic problem in your city when 256 people die in drug overdoses. And by the way, one of them was a second cousin of mine - only 30 years old. It's truly not a black or white issue.
By the way, why didn't the local Medical Examiner and city officials sound the alarm sooner?
7. Community Clean-Up - There are some areas of the city that look like HELLHOLES - abandoned, decaying and dilapidated graffiti covered structures. Some areas are challenged with illegal dumping. When people feel they live in a dump, that's how they treat their blocks, neighborhood AND CITY. I just think the city should do more to remediate area's where this is an obvious problem. Create a team that would remove prominent graffiti, board up structures and pick up trash. Changing citizen's attitudes could go a long way to help curb crime.
At the end of the day, there is no magic or silver bullet to fighting crime, but throwing people in jail and ignoring systemic issues doesn't automatically cure the crime problem. You will keep building jails.
In my personal experience, I moved to Shaw from Northampton four months ago thinking that it was a solid place to plant my young family in the city. However, I hear gunshots at night at least monthly, have seen neighbors on my block alone be the victim of multiple auto thefts and two armed carjackings (one last night), and have had to delete the Next Door app on my phone as I was becoming fearful of leaving my house after dark. A quick search on the STL PD website shows that Shaw has experienced over a 40% increase in crime year over year. A look at other neighborhoods around Shaw in the central part of the city like Southwest Garden, The Hill, Lafayette Square and Clifton Heights yields a similar trend. The same map shows that crime is leveling off in the northside, potentially as the population base there continues to decline and those who historically have perpetrated crimes in that area move south (or into north county).
The only addition I would make to Arch's comment is the need to work as a region to solve this. The city is too small and (apparently) unable to address this issue alone. While people like the mayor of Chesterfield may not see this as his problem now, it will be in a generation and a result of his lack of long-term thinking. As I evaluate the mayoral candidates this year, crime and regional thinking are my top priorities.
I made the move from Southwest city to Shaw 2 years ago and it has not lived up to expectations. I moved in 2 months before the Meyers shooting at Shaw & Klemm, so it wasn't exactly the best introduction to the neighborhood.I moved to Shaw from Northampton four months ago thinking that it was a solid place to plant my young family in the city
I've found the neighborhood very divisive and can't believe it has made the strides it has given all the various egos and agendas people in the neighborhood have. There is a very real feeling of "old timers vs. new people" in my opinion.
NextDoor is like a cancer. I try and tell myself neighbors are neighbors and it'll be the same anyplace I go, but I'm not sure how much I believe that. I know Shaw is very active on NextDoor, so I try and tell myself maybe i'm just not used to hearing about every single thing that happens and it feels worse than it is...i don't know
I've been giving serious thought to moving back to Southwest City, and if I do, I will not be downloading the NextDoor app
But to be honest, I feel we have a Citywide crime epidemic, I feel like I'm hearing about crime in places you never heard mentioned on the news, so moving neighborhoods isn't really going to solve anything and moving to the county just is not an appealing option for me.
And I agree with you 100%, my vote for mayor goes to the candidate that focuses on city safety and regionalism.
What were your expectations? I've lived in Shaw for a year and a half now after living in Southampton for 5 years. Yeah, its different. It doesn't feel quite as "safe" as Southampton. But I wouldn't move back. Its much more diverse, easier to walk, better park, closer to the highway, more frequent buses.I made the move from Southwest city to Shaw 2 years ago and it has not lived up to expectations.
Are you doing anything/getting involved to help stop the divisiveness? Do you attend neighborhood meetings or get engaged in some way? Moving back to Southwest city doesn't solve any problem you find in Shaw except those personal to you. Its flight. Its the same problem as City people fleeing to the county or county people fleeing to St. Charles.
I expected I would hear the occasional gunshot and understood there would probably be a bit more property crime than I was used to.pat wrote: ↑Feb 22, 2017What were your expectations? I've lived in Shaw for a year and a half now after living in Southampton for 5 years. Yeah, its different. It doesn't feel quite as "safe" as Southampton. But I wouldn't move back. Its much more diverse, easier to walk, better park, closer to the highway, more frequent buses.I made the move from Southwest city to Shaw 2 years ago and it has not lived up to expectations.
Are you doing anything/getting involved to help stop the divisiveness? Do you attend neighborhood meetings or get engaged in some way? Moving back to Southwest city doesn't solve any problem you find in Shaw except those personal to you. Its flight. Its the same problem as City people fleeing to the county or county people fleeing to St. Charles.
What I didn't plan on was hearing about car jackings & burglaries almost weekly, cars being broken into nightly, being worried to walk the dog when the sun goes down, almost being caught in a gun fight while driving down Klemm, etc.
I am involved with the neighborhood and do contribute, but am quickly losing interest. I am in no way interested in being more involved than I am and am really not interested in the politics of the neighborhood. I've been involved with neighborhood associations before and it's not for me. I don't have the stomach for it. I don't feel I have to go to every meeting to be a positive force, by being a good neighbor, knowing my neighbors, keeping my property up, cleaning up my block, I feel those are also important ways to contribute to the health of a neighborhood.
I honestly don't feel the people in Shaw can unite to solve the problems Shaw has. Too many people have too many different agendas and are unwilling to compromise. If I felt the neighborhood was united, I think all this other stuff wouldn't matter because it would feel like we are working together against a common problem, and that's something I can get behind. With all the different agendas people have, I don't see how anything is really going to get solved.
I stated in my previous post that moving wouldn't change anything, which is probably why I stay for now. There are a lot of things I like about Shaw, location, TGP, the architecture, the diversity...
However, when I start to feel my personal safety is threatened and that neighborhood leadership doesn't have a plan to move forward, sorry, I'm going to do what's best for me.
I disagree. The neighborhood just came together to fund security cameras through the Shaw Security Initiative, a non-profit started by people in the neighborhood who want to do something about crime. Those same folks are also trying to start citizens patrols from what I hear.I honestly don't feel the people in Shaw can unite to solve the problems Shaw has. Too many people have too many different agendas and are unwilling to compromise. If I felt the neighborhood was united, I think all this other stuff wouldn't matter because it would feel like we are working together against a common problem, and that's something I can get behind. With all the different agendas people have, I don't see how anything is really going to get solved.
That's just one issue, but you're right, 103 of 6,000+ neighbors donated to the fund, and the SNIA donated $10K I think...I contributed to that fund. Twice.I disagree. The neighborhood just came together to fund security cameras through the Shaw Security Initiative, a non-profit started by people in the neighborhood who want to do something about crime. Those same folks are also trying to start citizens patrols from what I hear.
The topic of cameras had been endlessly debated for the entire 2 years I have lived here (and earlier). Every time a crime was reported on NextDoor the topic of cameras came up and neighbors argued back and forth about privacy, the pros, the cons, and nothing got done until a private citizen said "screw it, i'm doing this myself" and set up the go fund me fundraiser.
Private citizens, fearing for their safety because of a mass shooting outside their front door, had to initiate and raise funds for additional security before neighborhood leaders took any kind of action.
I love that those neighbors did that and took the initiative and I give them major props, but it made me feel as if there was not strong leadership in the neighborhood. Neighborhood leaders debated about what to do, while private citizens just did. Maybe it really is everyone for themselves.
I'm not saying I hate Shaw, moving there was actually a dream of mine, however...I do believe I moved in during a time that has seen a significant uptick in crime and, again, NextDoor has probably not helped with my opinion of the neighborhood.
I don't want to hijack the thread any more than I have, you have your opinion, I have mine, and that's cool.
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I also recently moved from Southampton to TGS and share your frustration with crime in this part of South City compared to southwest City. I often ask people 2 basic questions and I've never gotten a very good response: 1) why is crime higher in TGS/Shaw compared to SW City and 2) are there things SW City does to create the safer environment that can be replicated in other neighborhoods?
SW City doesn't have cameras or citizen foot patrols that I'm aware of. I can't recall any specific things folks did differently over there. SW City has major roads such as Hampton and Kinghighway with minimal road closures/ Schoemehl pots.
SW City doesn't have cameras or citizen foot patrols that I'm aware of. I can't recall any specific things folks did differently over there. SW City has major roads such as Hampton and Kinghighway with minimal road closures/ Schoemehl pots.
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SW city also has, generally, more money. And it is further from concentrated poverty. It is the more intact. It is less bisected by interstate highways. (In fact, 44 actually helps to isolate it from the only industry and vaguely older housing stock in that quadrant of the city.) It also has the least industry. (And what's there is lighter and newer and generally still functioning.) It is the newest part of the city, and thus in the best physical shape; less abandonment, less emptiness. No major empty retail. No huge empty factories. It is also more homogeneous, both ethnically and (more importantly) economically. No rivalries between newcomers and old hands. No rich displacing the poor. No dispute between Krewson and French, Reed, or Jones. It's mostly still the same people that were there when the place was built in the fifties. Or their kids. Which isn't true anywhere else I can think of. (Mind you, I have relatives there.) I suspect there is more crime in Shaw and Tower Grove South than St. Louis Hills or Southampton largely because it is insulated from the problems and tensions that have plagued our city by . . . Shaw and Tower Grove South. It has more south county grade crime and crime rates because it's basically south county inside city limits. It's really quite simple. It's older, whiter, and more stolidly middle class than literally any other neighborhood in town. If you were going to put Beaver Cleaver somewhere in St. Louis that's where you'd put him. There is no other possible option. How does the median age there compare? My gut tells me it's probably about the highest in town. Which might well mean that the current residents will move along the most quickly, brining more and quicker change than anywhere else, so I'd be mighty careful about long term bets there. (Or anywhere in approximately adjacent south county for precisely the same reasons.) It's the most stable right now . . . but will that last? Is it perhaps also the least elastic?