heard mayor slay was supposed to make a big announcement for dt stl tommorrow (Fri). will be broadcast on 550 sometime in the morning.
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I really think if they do it right and have some edgy, provocative art that can't be found elsewhere, this could really be a major attraction. But if they make it too wholesome and generic, it will be a major waste of resources. At least we now hear our civic leaders striving to emulate what is happening in Chicago instead of some place like Kansas City or Louisville. That can't really be a bad thing.
My only skepticism about whether this will bring people downtown is that we already have one of the world's masterpieces at our front door-- the Arch. If that doesn't draw enough people I'm not sure this would either.
My only skepticism about whether this will bring people downtown is that we already have one of the world's masterpieces at our front door-- the Arch. If that doesn't draw enough people I'm not sure this would either.
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And whatever they do, they need to keep the trash out at night.
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^hear, hear. We don't need the world's edgiest urinal.
I'd rather see buildings go up in the Gateway Mall, but I think this project is good at least in the short-term. I mean it's a lot better than the empty lots now that are barely covered with grass.
I'd rather see buildings go up in the Gateway Mall, but I think this project is good at least in the short-term. I mean it's a lot better than the empty lots now that are barely covered with grass.
I love sculpture parks, especially in urban settings, however it seems a bit pre-mature.... Get the grocery stores built, fill in the rest of the mall with condos and office towers, then put up the decorations....
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Magnatron wrote:I love sculpture parks, especially in urban settings, however it seems a bit pre-mature.... Get the grocery stores built, fill in the rest of the mall with condos and office towers, then put up the decorations....
OK, you get right on that.
Get back to me in 100-200 years and I'll tell them that finally they can build their garden.
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you guys - I totally agree withmanyof the negative points being bandied about. They MUST have decent security to keep the park from becoming a giant urinal - 24 hours a day .... they MUST keep it well manicured and kept up ..... and the foundation MUST pick the right art and design the landscaping well .....
but if they do those things ... this could be a home run. And really - I have no doubt they can do all of the above. It wont cost much to keep the place secure and well maintaned - and I have no doubt that the gateway foundation will pick the right art (incidentally - the pieces the've ALREADY selected look pretty damn good) ...
if all these concerns are addressed - then it will kick start development around the mall. Outside dining. New offices (new residences?) ... this is exactly what we need. We're a city with one of the greatest works of modern art in history on our front porch - this is a natural extension. It can generate life and activity straight through downtown to Uniion Station. It may just save Union Station as well. - think about it.
but if they do those things ... this could be a home run. And really - I have no doubt they can do all of the above. It wont cost much to keep the place secure and well maintaned - and I have no doubt that the gateway foundation will pick the right art (incidentally - the pieces the've ALREADY selected look pretty damn good) ...
if all these concerns are addressed - then it will kick start development around the mall. Outside dining. New offices (new residences?) ... this is exactly what we need. We're a city with one of the greatest works of modern art in history on our front porch - this is a natural extension. It can generate life and activity straight through downtown to Uniion Station. It may just save Union Station as well. - think about it.
UGH. This is much better than new highrises on the mall. This stretch of downtown is lacking residents. We need less art and more residential buildings. The two blocks east of civil courts are the most wasted land areas in the city. The city doesn't even take care of the brown dead grass that they keep for nice green spaces.
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ntbpo wrote:UGH. This is much better than new highrises on the mall.
Yes it is!!!
If we pull this off correctly It would be a friggin miracle. This is an example of urban art that was done correctly IMO.
Denver.
Kansas City.
Denver.
Kansas City.
The Central Scrutinizer wrote:ntbpo wrote:UGH. This is much better than new highrises on the mall.
Yes it is!!!
Good point Scrutinizer. I am sure modern art will attract far more people to downtown and fill its streets far faster than a new office building would have...
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hey I completely agree that we need more density - much more density - and added residents/office workers is the key ....
but I honeslt ythink this could help in that regard. There is a lot of underdeveloped land around the mall .... this could act as a development magnet like Choteau's pond (I know - I could never spell Choteau). Its not as if we are lacking for space upon which new construction can rise.
but I honeslt ythink this could help in that regard. There is a lot of underdeveloped land around the mall .... this could act as a development magnet like Choteau's pond (I know - I could never spell Choteau). Its not as if we are lacking for space upon which new construction can rise.
Very true mark that we are not lacking in land for new construction. And maybe this will turn out to be a catalyst like you said. However, I just don't see green space and modern art as the type of draw that will make this a success. Something like this combined with underground parking would stand a much better change. Better lighting will help sure. Having a restaurant or two would really help draw people into the space.
I just know that the City subsidizes a lot of downtown development and thus far little has been office development. While there are many lots downtown where new office building could go up, many of those are priced quite highly or are not on the market. The City's arsenal of subsidies and tax breaks have few tools specially designed to fuel new office construction. The standard TIF, tax abatement, and historic tax credits formal that has been so successful in reviving the City's dilapidated warehouses are not so useful when it comes to new office construction. This is what makes the gateway mall land unique. The City can subsidize office development through low land acquisition costs, adding another tool that may make new office development possible in the City and help push downtown toward meeting the critical mass that will make the use of subsidies unnecessary.
I just know that the City subsidizes a lot of downtown development and thus far little has been office development. While there are many lots downtown where new office building could go up, many of those are priced quite highly or are not on the market. The City's arsenal of subsidies and tax breaks have few tools specially designed to fuel new office construction. The standard TIF, tax abatement, and historic tax credits formal that has been so successful in reviving the City's dilapidated warehouses are not so useful when it comes to new office construction. This is what makes the gateway mall land unique. The City can subsidize office development through low land acquisition costs, adding another tool that may make new office development possible in the City and help push downtown toward meeting the critical mass that will make the use of subsidies unnecessary.
Here comes that typical St. Louis mindset...
Am I reading comments by parents or those who believe that the city can succeed?
Am I reading comments by parents or those who believe that the city can succeed?
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JMedwick wrote:The Central Scrutinizer wrote:ntbpo wrote:UGH. This is much better than new highrises on the mall.
Yes it is!!!
Good point Scrutinizer. I am sure modern art will attract far more people to downtown and fill its streets far faster than a new office building would have...
In case you haven't noticed, people aren't exactly falling all over themselves to build office towers downtown. So yes, this sculpture garden will attract far more people than 100 of your imaginary office towers.
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Let's confine our discussion on this to the Gateway Mall thread. No need to have two threads going on this. Thanks.
And without the tax breaks given to the many of residential renovations projects downtown over the last 7 or 8 years, I can assure you no one would be falling all over themselves to build or renovate buildings for residential space downtown.
The formula followed in downtown is pretty clear: the combination of subsidies given by the City and state helped spark the residential renovations. Once they got going, more residential development has occurred, such that now downtown is to the point that new residential towers are proposed without the need for as many different subsidies as before.
So I ask you Scrutinizer, why can't that formula be followed downtown for office construction? Why can't the City use City-owned land as its own version of the state historic tax credit, which in many ways was the final piece of the puzzle needed for downtown rresidential renovations?
The only answer I can think of is that you see downtown office demand as so ridiculously low that all the subsidies in the world would not reduce the cost of construction and rental rates low enough for office tenants to consider downtown St. Louis.
This may be true for all I know, but I would just remind you that in 1999 I and many others would have said the same thing about downtown and residential construction: "there is no way you can renovate the merchandise mart and charge a rent someone would pay." That sounds pretty similar to me.
The formula followed in downtown is pretty clear: the combination of subsidies given by the City and state helped spark the residential renovations. Once they got going, more residential development has occurred, such that now downtown is to the point that new residential towers are proposed without the need for as many different subsidies as before.
So I ask you Scrutinizer, why can't that formula be followed downtown for office construction? Why can't the City use City-owned land as its own version of the state historic tax credit, which in many ways was the final piece of the puzzle needed for downtown rresidential renovations?
The only answer I can think of is that you see downtown office demand as so ridiculously low that all the subsidies in the world would not reduce the cost of construction and rental rates low enough for office tenants to consider downtown St. Louis.
This may be true for all I know, but I would just remind you that in 1999 I and many others would have said the same thing about downtown and residential construction: "there is no way you can renovate the merchandise mart and charge a rent someone would pay." That sounds pretty similar to me.
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JMedwick wrote:So I ask you Scrutinizer, why can't that formula be followed downtown for office construction? Why can't the City use City-owned land as its own version of the state historic tax credit, which in many ways was the final piece of the puzzle needed for downtown rresidential renovations?
The only answer I can think of is that you see downtown office demand as so ridiculously low that all the subsidies in the world would not reduce the cost of construction and rental rates low enough for office tenants to consider downtown St. Louis.
This may be true for all I know, but I would just remind you that in 1999 I and many others would have said the same thing about downtown and residential construction: "there is no way you can renovate the merchandise mart and charge a rent someone would pay." That sounds pretty similar to me.
When every vacant lot and parking lot downtown is occupied by a building, then we'll discuss building on the mall.
Case closed.
Now back to the sculpture garden. I hope they add the video wall as is mentioned in the article. And I also think it was wise to include plans for temporary exhibits.
And I love the Leger that is included!
The Central Scrutinizer wrote:When every vacant lot and parking lot downtown is occupied by a building, then we'll discuss building on the mall.
Case closed.
And now we get to the root of your unwillingness to see the Mall built on and thats ok.
You have stated your opinion (you just don't want to see the mall built on) and I have stated mine (I say bring on the construction crews).
I think we are done.
I don't think Central is saying that he doesn't want to see the Mall built on EVER, I think he is saying that he doesn't think it's an idea to reasonably entertain until there is enough demand-- until the dozens of actual empty lots that aren't owned by the city get built upon. I would agree.
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stlmike wrote:I don't think Central is saying that he doesn't want to see the Mall built on EVER, I think he is saying that he doesn't think it's an idea to reasonably entertain until there is enough demand-- until the dozens of actual empty lots that aren't owned by the city get built upon. I would agree.
Exactly.
But even then, after all these other lots are filled, I think the mall will be a welcome feature for the thousands of residents. The reason it's dead now, is that there aren't enough people around to fill it.
If it gets built on now, I can foresee a time 50 years in the future when 60,000 people live downtown and find out there used to be this wonderful open space right in the middle of downtown. "What were they thinking when they allowed it to be built on?"
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with the exception of the lots around the stadium, most downtown surface lots are small, 1/4 or 1/2 a block.
^ so you want to use eminent domain to take surface lots away from property owners, to sell to a developer?
it would seem rather hypocritical for the city to force people to sell land, rather than sell its own, to preserve a mall, that really isn't a mall.
^ so you want to use eminent domain to take surface lots away from property owners, to sell to a developer?
it would seem rather hypocritical for the city to force people to sell land, rather than sell its own, to preserve a mall, that really isn't a mall.
I'm thinking this may have a look more along the lines of the Minneapolis Sculpture Garden.
http://garden.walkerart.org/artwork.wac#head
http://garden.walkerart.org/artwork.wac#head
Please consider/reconsider two factors:
1. The potential for convention, visitor and tourism growth in downtown is huge. Amenities like the new sculpture park are necessary to attract the next tier.
2. New and future downtown residents require meaningful, upscale amenities. As loft-style living meets the limits of demand, new highrise residential that commands prices starting higher and rising up through the millions will be built.
What are other "next level" amenities that people with money to spend are/will be seeking out?
St. Louis is beginning to segment the market because there is pent up demand for what St. Louis is and can be. It can't always be only about baseball and beer.
1. The potential for convention, visitor and tourism growth in downtown is huge. Amenities like the new sculpture park are necessary to attract the next tier.
2. New and future downtown residents require meaningful, upscale amenities. As loft-style living meets the limits of demand, new highrise residential that commands prices starting higher and rising up through the millions will be built.
What are other "next level" amenities that people with money to spend are/will be seeking out?
St. Louis is beginning to segment the market because there is pent up demand for what St. Louis is and can be. It can't always be only about baseball and beer.