lucas park

johnny sunshine · PostJul 14, 2007#12007-07-14T00:28+00:00

i live in the knickerbocker right on lucas park. i frequently interact with the homeless folk and others (maybe they live at the ymca or had been at centenary tower) who hang out there... i take my dog out to the park and for walks in the area, not to mention walking along the park on on my way to the metro station or my parking lot.

over the past few months, i've seen a lot. i'm pretty sure i've seen a few drug deals and money exchanged for a trick; i've seen plenty of shouting matches and even stopped a man who began choking a woman during an argument. i'm sure most of you have seen things like this, too, as well as the trash, clothing, food remnants, suitcases, blankets, etc strewn about the park--including hung up in the trees--and shady looking adults lounging on the playground equipment preventing its use by kids.

here's the thing: i don't mind sharing the park with the homeless. some of them are pretty good folk, but i hate that the park is being trashed by the others.

i'd like to begin a constructive dialogue here to brainstorm things we can do to improve the situation (not put the homeless in jail or relocate them to the county or whatever). i want to know how we can all live together here in the city and make places like lucas park cleaner and less intimidating so that the general public can enjoy it.

thanks--i'm looking forward to reading your ideas and comments.

stldtfan · PostJul 14, 2007#22007-07-14T14:27+00:00

You are kidding right?

How can you have a constructive argument regarding people who have NO stake in maintaining the "ambiance" or "beauty" of a tax paid facility? As long as the "entitlement" of using/defacing the park is given to people with no incentive to keep it clean, it WILL be abused.

Human nature (we all fall wthin this) dictates you hold dear what you worked and paid for and abuse anything that you can have for free. Some of the homeless are chronic, some have drug issues and others mental. I personally believe that each of these categories need to be dealt with different approaches.

I doubt any of us here are qualified to do that. What we "can" do is have a dialogue about it, but there are almost 60 pages of dialogue in the "St. Louis Homeless and Panhandlers" topic.

urban elitist · PostJul 14, 2007#32007-07-14T16:00+00:00

johnny sunshine wrote:i live in the knickerbocker right on lucas park. i frequently interact with the homeless folk and others (maybe they live at the ymca or had been at centenary tower) who hang out there... i take my dog out to the park and for walks in the area, not to mention walking along the park on on my way to the metro station or my parking lot.

over the past few months, i've seen a lot. i'm pretty sure i've seen a few drug deals and money exchanged for a trick; i've seen plenty of shouting matches and even stopped a man who began choking a woman during an argument. i'm sure most of you have seen things like this, too, as well as the trash, clothing, food remnants, suitcases, blankets, etc strewn about the park--including hung up in the trees--and shady looking adults lounging on the playground equipment preventing its use by kids.

here's the thing: i don't mind sharing the park with the homeless. some of them are pretty good folk, but i hate that the park is being trashed by the others.

i'd like to begin a constructive dialogue here to brainstorm things we can do to improve the situation (not put the homeless in jail or relocate them to the county or whatever). i want to know how we can all live together here in the city and make places like lucas park cleaner and less intimidating so that the general public can enjoy it.

thanks--i'm looking forward to reading your ideas and comments.

http://www.urbanstl.com/viewtopic.php?t ... &start=195

johnny sunshine · PostJul 15, 2007#42007-07-15T05:21+00:00

1. thanks for pointing me to the similar thread (homeless & panhandlers) in the urban living board. i am aware of its existence, but purposely started a new thread in hopes of beginning a constructive conversation rather than continuing a complaint session.

2. no, i am not kidding. without getting into the classifications of homelessness and its causes, i will say this: many of the folk who reside/spend a great deal of time at lucas park do have ownership in it because they "live" there and probably don't want to sleep among trash and garbage anymore than we do.

regarding park ownership of what you may consider "real residents," well, think about this. how much dog sh*t do you see laying in or around the park? now think about how many homeless people you know who own dogs. ...and let's not forget about the consumers of city nightlife, shopping, arts, etc who litter, puke, etc in our public spaces.

it seems to me that ownership and care are goals to be worked on from both sides.

so, let's get back to being constructive about working on the problems we see instead of arguing about their causes.

what if residents were to go out and pick up trash a couple times a week? i could go out with a trash bag during the day and quite visibly pick up trash. it's crap work, but maybe a few people would get the message.

also, who is in charge of restocking the dog poop bag stands? i've never seen bags in them--maybe providing bags would be a helpful reminder for some people that we DO care.

give me more ideas, no matter how pollyanna-ish they might seem.

framer · PostJul 15, 2007#52007-07-15T06:21+00:00

Oh, boy, this thread's gonna get ugly..

the central scrutinizer · PostJul 15, 2007#62007-07-15T13:14+00:00

johnny sunshine wrote:what if residents were to go out and pick up trash a couple times a week? i could go out with a trash bag during the day and quite visibly pick up trash. it's crap work, but maybe a few people would get the message.

What if the homeless were to go out and pick up trash a couple times a week? After all, they have "ownership" in the park.

olvidarte · PostJul 15, 2007#72007-07-15T15:10+00:00

so, let's get back to being constructive about working on the problems we see instead of arguing about their causes.

The thing is you can't really solve the problem without addressing the cause, which is primarily the homeless. You can clean all you want, but until the cause of the problem is identified and fixed, you'll be out there every day for a long long time.

I'm surprised Downtown Residents haven't banded together to define what is and isn't acceptable behavior at the park, or is Lucas Park a back burner issue? What plans does the Downtown Residents Association have for Lucas Park? Have downtown residents given up on the park?

I was thinking about LP the other day and my solution was exactly the same as TCS', make the homeless clean up their own mess. How to do that? I don't know, but if they're going to make this park that I pay taxes for home, they should at least pitch in and keep it clean. To be honest, I think that's being way too optimistic, but it's worth a shot.

Maybe there just needs to be lots of activity at the park. It seems that the library could utilize it for all sorts of special events. Maybe DT resident's should frequent it more? I can understand their trepidation though.

Unfortunately, until Lucas Park gains a huge amount of attention and support from DT resident's, I don't see things changing much.

bastiat · PostJul 15, 2007#82007-07-15T17:09+00:00

I think that the clearest way to solve the problem is to look at ways others have solved the problem. I am sure that most on this board have heard of Bryant Park in NYC. It is considered one of the better city parks in the nation, except it is not a city park. The city owns it, but it is run by a private corporation. They have their own private security as well.

Their mission statement

The Bryant Park Corporation was founded in 1980 with a charge to reclaim Bryant Park for the people of New York City. Since then, the talent, dedication and execution of the BPC board and staff has transformed the park into the greatest public space in the world. The ongoing mission of the BPC is: to create a rich and dynamic visual, cultural and intellectual outdoor experience for New Yorkers and visitors alike; to enhance the real estate values of its neighbors by continuously improving the park; to burnish the park's status as a prime NYC tourist destination by presenting a meticulously maintained venue for free entertainment events; and to help prevent crime and disorder in the park by attracting thousands of patrons, at all hours, thus fostering a safe environment.

The BPC is privately funded, and operates Bryant Park with private sector techniques and management methods. Working as agent for the City of New York, the BPC provides sanitation, security services, spotless restrooms, colorful gardens, and seasonal horticultural installations for the park, and maintains a lush lawn that is open to the public. The BPC also works with civic minded corporations and park patrons to offer interesting amenities, free educational programs and free high-level entertainment for people of all ages. Careful selection and management of concessionaires ensures that park visitors have access to high quality food and merchandise. As it strives to improve the park each year, the BPC pays close attention to other models and constantly seeks innovations, whether from its own staff or from outside, always with an eye on the ultimate goal: presenting the perfect park to the public.

Obviously, Bryant Park is a little bit bigger and has much more density surrounding it, but there are similarities such as being located right next to the main branch of the library. To make up for the smaller size, perhaps the corporation could run the parks to south as well. I think it would also be beneficial to give them control of the library and WWI memorial. That way the homeless would not be able to loiter in our city's greatest assets.

There is a lot opportunity to build greater density in the area, starting with the parking lot to the west of Lucas Park.

johnny sunshine · PostJul 15, 2007#92007-07-15T17:53+00:00

olivdarte is right that homelessness needs to be addressed, but at the same time i don't want to give up on lucas park until we solve the problem of homelessness. there has to be something we can do in the meantime.

i don't know anything about the dtra yet and plan to attend the next meeting to learn more--is anyone here a part of the dtra who can fill us in?

there are a handful of homeless who frequent the park who not only clean up after themselves, but clean up after the others who leave trash. it's just not enough. i think residents taking a proactive approach picking up trash could not only help some, but also send the message to park visitors (homeless, resident, or otherwise) that we care what the park is like. it also could increase our visibility to the homeless as well as act as a bridge to SHARING the space with them in a more positive manner and building relationships with them.

i have a rapport with two homeless couples and an older man--folk who take initiative to clean up and have ownership in their surroundings. they also make the park safer for me: they know me and my dog and watch out for us... they discourage panhandlers and harrassers from bothering me. they also watch out for my car when it's parked on the street. i know when these folk are around, my car is not going to get broken into and i won't be bothered.

so, i think it would benefit us to develop acquaintanceships with (some, not all of) the people we share the park with because it will promote common courtesy and safety. and maybe we'll learn more about what we can do that can REALLY help the homeless.

i love your idea about frequenting the park more and having gatherings there. maybe we could schedule some sort potluck meet & greet for loft residents before the end of the summer.

would any of you out there be interested in meeting up to pick up some trash? maybe spend some time getting to know the homeless in the park? organizing a meet & greet? email me and let me know: carolinehackmeyer at gmail dot com.

and keep the suggestions and ideas coming!

thanks.

bastiat · PostJul 15, 2007#102007-07-15T18:36+00:00

I should also note that Daniel A. Biederman, executive director of the Bryant Park Restoration Corporation (BPRC) says

There is nothing that we have done in Bryant Park that couldn't be done in other city parks and that couldn't be done with other city facilities.

Their park is completely privately funded. On their website it says "Did you know As a New Yorker, none of your tax money goes to Bryant Park. The Park is entirely financed by private money: you get it for free."

jcity · PostJul 15, 2007#112007-07-15T20:20+00:00

maybe we could schedule some sort potluck meet & greet for loft residents before the end of the summer.

moorlander · PostJul 15, 2007#122007-07-15T20:49+00:00

Why

??

sounds like a good idea. Do they have bbq grills @ LP?

jcity · PostJul 16, 2007#132007-07-16T03:03+00:00

I got the impression is was a meet and greet for the loft dwellers and the people in the park. a "hey, let's get to know each other and hang out" kind of feel-good/accomplish nothing sort of meeting.

the central scrutinizer · PostJul 16, 2007#142007-07-16T13:07+00:00

johnny sunshine wrote:would any of you out there be interested in meeting up to pick up some trash?

No. It would be back the next day.

johnny sunshine wrote:maybe spend some time getting to know the homeless in the park?

Most definitely no.

johnny sunshine wrote:organizing a meet & greet?

No.

juiceinkirkwood · PostJul 16, 2007#152007-07-16T14:46+00:00

^^ haha

Expat · PostJul 16, 2007#162007-07-16T15:20+00:00

Johnny Sunshine, welcome to the forum. It is great to hear from new people that have an interest in improving their neighborhood and discussing solutions with neighbors. As you know, it is a complicated situation and many have lost patience. Keep brainstorming and trying to make a difference.

innov8ion · PostJul 16, 2007#172007-07-16T17:22+00:00

Lucas Park belongs no more to the homeless than it does to other city residents.

The DSLRA is sponsoring a National Night Out on August 7th @ 7pm. It will be held in the nook between Lucas Park Grille & the (former?) Children's Center. More information will be passed on as the event nears but here's the gist. http://www.nationalnightout.org/nno/about.html

Also, I believe there may be a push to place a dog park in Lucas Park. The area is surrounded by residential and it seems like a great place for it. Dog parks are excellent for establishing community so this seems like such a great idea!

Here's the DSLRA website: http://dslra.org/

the central scrutinizer · PostJul 16, 2007#182007-07-16T17:33+00:00

innov8ion wrote:Also, I believe there may be a push to place a dog park in Lucas Park. The area is surrounded by residential and it seems like a great place for it. Dog parks are excellent for establishing community so this seems like such a great idea!

That would be cool. And a fence to keep the homeless out!

innov8ion · PostJul 16, 2007#192007-07-16T17:38+00:00

The Central Scrutinizer wrote:
innov8ion wrote:Also, I believe there may be a push to place a dog park in Lucas Park. The area is surrounded by residential and it seems like a great place for it. Dog parks are excellent for establishing community so this seems like such a great idea!

That would be cool. And a fence to keep the homeless out!

I believe dog parks do have fences, to allow our four-legged friends to run free.

bab · PostJul 16, 2007#202007-07-16T18:10+00:00

johnny sunshine wrote:

maybe spend some time getting to know the homeless in the park?

The Central Scrutinizer wrote:

Most definitely no.

I know that talking to brick walls will only get you a brickbat to the head. However, as a long time dt resident with quite a bit of interaction with all sorts of folks in my community (those with and those without homes) I can state with extreme veracity that I would much rather spend my time with some of the folks in Lucas Park than close-minded elitists.

If you have nothing constructive to add to this thread, then go mitch and boan somewhere else.

PostJul 16, 2007#212007-07-16T18:34+00:00

ideas:

We've noticed that while construction was ongoing on the Denim Lofts, there have been porta-potties on St. Charles. Many of the people using the park (homeless and not) would use the portable toilets to 'do their business'. However, the construction crews soon took to locking them up after work hours. I know that NLEC has portable toilets out back, but they are in a very dark alley and not at all inviting. I think providing some basic facilities would go a long way. Perhaps the Christ Church, NLEC, Central Library and others could be tapped to assist in providing some park services to improve the area as well as reduce use / abuse of their own facilities.

Do-gooders handing out food is a problem as well. Many times they hand out pre-bagged meals which encourages lots of waste (of food as well as packaging) which inevitably ends up in trash cans and on the ground as it is scavenged, etc. These folks need to be approached and coordinate their services with more permanent providers already in the 'hood. Perhaps the city or alderpersons could assist in this?

A similar problem is dumping of clothing / shoes / etc. in the park which has been pronounced this summer. I'm not sure how to deal with this (obviously illegal) activity. Perhaps once some ties are established with some reliable / responsible park dwellers we could 'deputize' them (without real authority, of course) to keep a watchful eye out and collect information to combat illegal practices?

Does anyone know what steps the city is taking with its task force? It would be good if we could make contact with the department once people are semi-organized / mobilized to work together.

doug · PostJul 16, 2007#222007-07-16T20:01+00:00

Fences are not the solution. People need to use the park and not be afraid of the homeless. Then the homeless will go somewhere else.

the central scrutinizer · PostJul 16, 2007#232007-07-16T20:01+00:00

bab wrote:johnny sunshine wrote:

maybe spend some time getting to know the homeless in the park?

The Central Scrutinizer wrote:

Most definitely no.

I know that talking to brick walls will only get you a brickbat to the head. However, as a long time dt resident with quite a bit of interaction with all sorts of folks in my community (those with and those without homes) I can state with extreme veracity that I would much rather spend my time with some of the folks in Lucas Park than close-minded elitists.

If you have nothing constructive to add to this thread, then go mitch and boan somewhere else.

I can state with extreme veracity that I would rather spend time with successful, open-minded elitists (like myself) than wide-eyed do-gooders who are actually so naive to think that we can end homelessness.

This thread concerns Lucas Park. Eliminating the homeless from Lucas Park is something constructive that we should strive for. Therefore, I will continue to participate in this thread.

innov8ion · PostJul 16, 2007#242007-07-16T20:06+00:00

Hmm, the toilets at NLEC aren't inviting? You could volunteer to clean them. Somehow, I don't think that turning Lucas Park into Port-A-Potty central is the right answer.

Not sure what to do about littering? Surely we must have ordinances with littering.

Folks have mentioned there are laws on the books regarding people illegally serving food in the park. If that's the case, it's an enforcement issue and it stands to reason you could call the police.

PostJul 16, 2007#252007-07-16T20:10+00:00

Doug wrote:Fences are not the solution. People need to use the park and not be afraid of the homeless. Then the homeless will go somewhere else.

No one is talking about being afraid of the homeless or preventing them from utilizing the park during operating hours. Dog parks by definition simply have fences to allow dogs to run free. Further establishing community is what downtown needs.

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