I guess it might be, but then how do you explain the one or two big STL companies in the past few years that have chosen to build new office buildings in Clayton rather than build or lease downtown?olvidarte wrote:Cheaper leasing rates might be an advantage? It seems like office space downtown is a steal compared to Clayton.
I have no answers on that. I just know that leasing rates are a lot cheaper downtown than in Clayton and I'm always surprised by companies who claim they want to save money and then lease space in Clayton.
My assumption would be the stigma downtown has as less than desirable and that clayton is heaven, but i really have no clue, i'm not a RE expert.
My assumption would be the stigma downtown has as less than desirable and that clayton is heaven, but i really have no clue, i'm not a RE expert.
I mean, just thinking like a businessman, it has to be a $$$ thing.olvidarte wrote:I have no answers on that. I just know that leasing rates are a lot cheaper downtown than in Clayton and I'm always surprised by companies who claim they want to save money and then lease space in Clayton.
My assumption would be the stigma downtown has as less than desirable and that clayton is heaven, but i really have no clue, i'm not a RE expert.
Let's get real: downtown has seen impressive turnaround over the past ten years, but what percentage of that turnaround was riding the back of massive tax breaks/$$$ incentives? It seems to me like unless the City throws untold oodles of cash at companies, they have no reason to locate downtown, when they can do so elsewhere.
This is getting kinda off-topic, too, I guess. This consolidation is done by the VA, not a private corporation, right?
I totally agree....I'm trying to remember if Clayton/County does the same thing...I can't recall any specific cases. I guess Clayton doesn't need to rely on these types of gimmicks.It seems to me like unless the City throws untold oodles of cash at companies, they have no reason to locate downtown, when they can do so elsewhere.
On an aside, I feel like the City throws money at people to KEEP existing businesses downtown, they've clearly been unsuccessful giving money away and actually having someone relocate here from outside the City limits.
I really wish the City would stop giving away the farm though, it hasn't worked so it's time for a new strategy? Not sure if that's a possibility, but I don't like the precedent it has set.
I don't know........it's frustrating to figure out what we need to do, I don't have a head for business, but it feels like we've thrown everything and the kitchen sink at this problem and can't get ahead.
It's been a doozie of a week for downtown St. Louis. It almost seems farcical. And then we have our mayor tweeting "Moving VA jobs from the City to the county is much better than losing jobs in the region. #fgs".
Pathetic attempt to spin what everyone knows is a devastating blow to the city. Get real!
Pathetic attempt to spin what everyone knows is a devastating blow to the city. Get real!
It should have been something along the lines of "Will work hard to convince VA to stay downtown. If all options are exhausted, we will fully support keeping jobs in the region."stlgasm wrote:It's been a doozie of a week for downtown St. Louis. It almost seems farcical. And then we have our mayor tweeting "Moving VA jobs from the City to the county is much better than losing jobs in the region. #fgs".
Pathetic attempt to spin what everyone knows is a devastating blow to the city. Get real!
Not a lame Willy Wonka-ish "No...stop...don't go..." (See the Gene Wilder version to understand.)
It's really time for fresh blood in the mayor's seat. He's so passive. Slay has no backbone.
Lately, I've imagined him with a straw hat, heels kicked up on a bale of hay with a straw in his mouth. He's done. No fight. Just photo-ops and tweets.
He's needs to be championing downtown as the center of the region - but not to the detriment of Clayton.
I can't believe this guy had such as passive response. I wonder if he was informed of the move prior to the report?
Lately, I've imagined him with a straw hat, heels kicked up on a bale of hay with a straw in his mouth. He's done. No fight. Just photo-ops and tweets.
He's needs to be championing downtown as the center of the region - but not to the detriment of Clayton.
I can't believe this guy had such as passive response. I wonder if he was informed of the move prior to the report?
Maybe the whole business of what's going on in KC needs to be put to him...see how he responds to that!
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i think this has been discussed on the forum somewhere, but in at least a few cases it's probably been motivated by where the top brass live (Ladue for example). i imagine it also has to do with being close to the larger suburban population. the majority of our company leaders seem to be oblivious, or apathetic, to national trends in talent migration and couldn't care less about having a strong core. and like somebody else mentioned, it sometimes seems that they actually prefer a spread-out region.rawest1 wrote:I guess it might be, but then how do you explain the one or two big STL companies in the past few years that have chosen to build new office buildings in Clayton rather than build or lease downtown?
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I think the companies love were downtown is right now in the office market. I think want downtown as a poker chip to use as a thereat to get tax intensives out of the county. If they can't get it one, they say we will move to downtown to make up for some of the coast with not getting the tax brake.urban_dilettante wrote:i think this has been discussed on the forum somewhere, but in at least a few cases it's probably been motivated by where the top brass live (Ladue for example). i imagine it also has to do with being close to the larger suburban population. the majority of our company leaders seem to be oblivious, or apathetic, to national trends in talent migration and couldn't care less about having a strong core. and like somebody else mentioned, it sometimes seems that they actually prefer a spread-out region.rawest1 wrote:I guess it might be, but then how do you explain the one or two big STL companies in the past few years that have chosen to build new office buildings in Clayton rather than build or lease downtown?
Another big loss for downtown. The residential growth is great, but by my estimate downtown has lost more workers than it has added in residents over the last decade. Treading water in terms of total numbers will not improve the retail or service atmosphere downtown. Maybe one day the St. Louis business community will understand that a vibrant downtown is critical to helping the region grow in terms of people, not just land area.
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It seems deliberate to me as well. It's like the strategy in Atlanta or Houston, only without all of that troublesome growth and the congestion that it brings getting in the way. But wait a minute- at least in some areas- those cities are becoming denser with all of that troublesome growth even as they continue to sprawl. So is St. Louis, within the Central Corridor and adjacent areas, but I'd argue that's in spite of and not because of sound regional public policy and planning. You can thank Washington and Saint Louis universities for much of that activity instead. And at the end of the day, we're still in a slow-growth, nearly stagnant region with a downtown that's losing jobs and failing to attract retailers even as it's gaining residents.Anglophile wrote:Sometimes I think that most people just have no interest in seeing downtown succeed. It seems like St. Louisans actually LIKE having everything spread out rather than centralized. Like this is all deliberate. It just doesn't make sense to me.
What a shock, or not. Frankie Fourterms is a pathetic and predictable one-trick pony these days. I'm sure that he thinks his conciliatory tone puts the city in a better position to work with the county whether or not it re-enters or merges with the county. Instead, what it accomplishes is quite the opposite: it makes him look weaker in my opinion, and worse, it perpetuates the decades-long stereotype that Downtown St. Louis is somewhere to flee, and it's not really worth fighting to make it better for the greater long-term good of the region either. And even though I'm pessimistic about a potential merger or re-entry, that mentality makes it even harder for the city to make a case for itself long-term despite all of its assets and all of the good things that are currently happening within its boundaries. And of course, you know, you have Mayor Slay to thank for all of that. Just don't expect him to take any accountability when you mention downtown treading water, the crime, the schools, etc.dweebe wrote:Took until late in the afternoon: but here it is. Almost exactly word-for-word what I was expecting.dweebe wrote:I'm just waiting for Mayor Slay and his people to spin this as a good thing for the city.
MayorSlay.com @MayorSlay
Moving VA jobs from the City to the county is much better than losing jobs in the region. #fgs
^SPOT ON!!!threeonefour wrote:What a shock, or not. Frankie Fourterms is a pathetic and predictable one-trick pony these days. I'm sure that he thinks his conciliatory tone puts the city in a better position to work with the county whether or not it re-enters or merges with the county. Instead, what it accomplishes is quite the opposite: it makes him look weaker in my opinion, and worse, it perpetuates the decades-long stereotype that Downtown St. Louis is somewhere to flee, and it's not really worth fighting to make it better for the greater long-term good of the region either. And even though I'm pessimistic about a potential merger or re-entry, that mentality makes it even harder for the city to make a case for itself long-term despite all of its assets and all of the good things that are currently happening within its boundaries. And of course, you know, you have Mayor Slay to thank for all of that. Just don't expect him to take any accountability when you mention downtown treading water, the crime, the schools, etc.MayorSlay.com @MayorSlay
Moving VA jobs from the City to the county is much better than losing jobs in the region. #fgs
I just keep thinking......all Slay has to do is pick up the phone, call Klumb, call McCaskill, call Blunt, call Clay and say, "Our region's core business district is about to lose 800 jobs. Can you all have the national GSA office reevaluate/review this move?" Give them some different options. Call Dooley and express that the move is about boosting/maintaining one of the region's core business districts - and not the stupid city vs. county nonsense. Once reevaluated, if they rule to consolidate in Overland - then fine.
It doesn't appear that Slay is willing do that even. He's toast. He's exhibiting poor leadership with that passive-aggressive tweet.
Meanwhile, Mayor Sly James over in Kansas City is getting a big boost to his downtown with nearly 1,000 new jobs. A boost to P&L, a boost to Crown Center, etc.
Sometimes, I think St. Louis needs a take-charge "compassionate" conservative or feistier Democrat in the mayor's seat to really get the city moving. I've always been on the fence with Slay, but nowadays he's just too passive.
Lewis Reed has created a White House petition, asking the Administration to reconsider the VA re-location https://petitions.whitehouse.gov/petiti ... s/zp2lb7C5
This is likely for looks as getting 100,000 people to sign in the next 30 days seems unlikely, but at least it's something. At least Reed can see the dissatisfaction with Slay's approach and is trying to take advantage.DannyJ wrote:Lewis Reed has created a White House petition, asking the Administration to reconsider the VA re-location https://petitions.whitehouse.gov/petiti ... s/zp2lb7C5
I still don't necessarily regret choosing to support Slay over Reed, but I sure have been impressed with Lewis Reed since I've really gotten a better grasp on city politics.
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First off I think Slay is laying the ground work for a VERY important re entry vote in the next two years. The topic is heating up so much in mainstream local media I think it's clear the vote is coming. He is trying to put on a regional face. Secondly this is happening. I can't even say its a stupid move given the VA current state to consolidate into empty space they have in Overland. Slay probably doesn't see the point in fighting where he can't win.
No one outside city government has a dog in the fight. McCaskil, Blunt, Nixon all see it as a no net gain or loss for the region. IF it makes the operation of the VA more efficient and net loss has a net loss of zero jobs how could they be against it.
Lewis Reed has his heart in the right place but he is expending energy on a fight I don't see how he can win.
No one outside city government has a dog in the fight. McCaskil, Blunt, Nixon all see it as a no net gain or loss for the region. IF it makes the operation of the VA more efficient and net loss has a net loss of zero jobs how could they be against it.
Lewis Reed has his heart in the right place but he is expending energy on a fight I don't see how he can win.
While I still don't like the move and remain extremely ticked off by Slay's response: at least the jobs are going to Overland and not Earth City, St. Charles or Chesterfield.
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My assumption is that Clay didn't make any waves with this because the jobs are staying in his Congressional District.
If they were moving to Chesterfield he might have fought it.
If they were moving to Chesterfield he might have fought it.
“Regionalism” isn't about sacrificing the region’s major business district – which just happens to be in the City of St. Louis. When considering the city-county merger, I think it is important for local leadership to understand that both the city and county MUST benefit.STLEnginerd wrote:First off I think Slay is laying the ground work for a VERY important re entry vote in the next two years. The topic is heating up so much in mainstream local media I think it's clear the vote is coming. He is trying to put on a regional face. Secondly this is happening. I can't even say its a stupid move given the VA current state to consolidate into empty space they have in Overland. Slay probably doesn't see the point in fighting where he can't win.
No one outside city government has a dog in the fight. McCaskil, Blunt, Nixon all see it as a no net gain or loss for the region. IF it makes the operation of the VA more efficient and net loss has a net loss of zero jobs how could they be against it.
Lewis Reed has his heart in the right place but he is expending energy on a fight I don't see how he can win.
If the region’s primary business district slowly becomes void of office workers, how does that bode well for the region? If the region’s edge cities are adding hundreds and thousands of jobs at the expense of the region’s major business district (Downtown St. Louis), how does that bode well for the region?
If anything, the goal of regionalism should be to insure that the region’s major business district (and one of the State’s) becomes healthier.
While regionalism is important, and Slay wants to set a unifying tone, unfortunately, Downtown St. Louis is the only major business node bleeding jobs to other regional edge city sub-markets. Local edge city sub-markets are also gaining jobs faster than downtown. Edward Jones, RGA, Monsanto, World Wide Technology, Express Scripts, Boeing, Scottrade, etc. all have added jobs in St. Louis County’s edge city sub-markets.
I could see Slay being “regional-minded” if downtown St. Louis was gaining jobs at the same rate, but that simply isn't the case. Despite tech jobs being organically added to downtown, downtown has been screwed in recent years when it comes to jobs fleeing to the suburbs. And lately, it has been VERY RARE for downtown St. Louis to snag HUNDREDS of jobs from St. Louis County. The transference of jobs from city-to-county has been lopsided.
Further, the GSA (not the VA) owns the Overland facility. Again, the GSA is about to put $35-million into that obsolete facility. Why not sell the facility then invest in a new or existing structure downtown? It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure this out.
If Slay had a backbone and better leadership skills, I guarantee you the GSA which owns the building in Overland (not the VA), would have to respond to his request for a review. Although you were the one to mention Nixon, he too does have a “dog in the fight”. Being a pro-business governor, he would want his major cities downtowns to be healthy because of the residual impact. An empty downtown full of sports stadiums won't be a magnet for corporate offices.
McCaskill, Clay, Blunt are Congressional representatives who could seek an inquiry/review of the GSA’s decision IF Slay pressed the issue FOR THE REGION’S MAIN BUSINESS DISTRICT – not necessarily for St. Louis City.
If the downtown CBD is a ghost-town how does that help the St. Louis region? It doesn't.
I LOATHE defeatist attitudes. That's problem with St. Louis. It has a problem perceiving it can win! The St. Louis mayor is too cowardice to make a reasonable request. I like Reed's efforts. It's too bad he can't be the one to request a direct review of the GSA's decision to the GSA or Congressional leaders.
How many people that are pissed at slay, also support the city/county merger? Seems like you can't have it both ways.
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Wow...I agree with a lot of the points made above.
Dweebe, yes, I think it's better to see the jobs moving to Overland than Chesterfield. Overland could use the boost, it's centrally located relative to the city and county, and it will help businesses in the area. But yes, I am also irritated by that tweet, which seems to be par for the course from Richard Callow, er, I mean the mayor's office these days.
Arch, I agree with everything you said. While I think Enginerd has a point about how Mayor Slay is probably positioning himself relative to a vote on city-county consolidation (or at least, city reentry into the county), I'd still like to see more assertiveness from the mayor. As you said, this doesn't have to be articulated as yet another power struggle between the city and county. The mayor wouldn't necessarily have to advocate for the consolidation of all of those jobs in downtown, which may or may not be preferable when political ramifications are taken into consideration. But I think it's only fair for citizens to expect the mayor to fight for the jobs that are here. Otherwise, the lack of action perpetuates the defeatist attitude as you said, and as I previously stated, it sends the message that the city is a place to flee just as it was for several decades.
Southsidepride, you are right about Congressman Clay's silence on the matter. If these jobs were heading to Chesterfield or St. Charles- i.e., the 2nd District- he'd probably have a much different take on this proposal. That's about the only thing House members are good for these days- looking out for their district and piling on the pork- often at the expense of other areas.
Dweebe, yes, I think it's better to see the jobs moving to Overland than Chesterfield. Overland could use the boost, it's centrally located relative to the city and county, and it will help businesses in the area. But yes, I am also irritated by that tweet, which seems to be par for the course from Richard Callow, er, I mean the mayor's office these days.
Arch, I agree with everything you said. While I think Enginerd has a point about how Mayor Slay is probably positioning himself relative to a vote on city-county consolidation (or at least, city reentry into the county), I'd still like to see more assertiveness from the mayor. As you said, this doesn't have to be articulated as yet another power struggle between the city and county. The mayor wouldn't necessarily have to advocate for the consolidation of all of those jobs in downtown, which may or may not be preferable when political ramifications are taken into consideration. But I think it's only fair for citizens to expect the mayor to fight for the jobs that are here. Otherwise, the lack of action perpetuates the defeatist attitude as you said, and as I previously stated, it sends the message that the city is a place to flee just as it was for several decades.
Southsidepride, you are right about Congressman Clay's silence on the matter. If these jobs were heading to Chesterfield or St. Charles- i.e., the 2nd District- he'd probably have a much different take on this proposal. That's about the only thing House members are good for these days- looking out for their district and piling on the pork- often at the expense of other areas.
Adding on to my statement... This is a reason a country / city merger might not best for the city for the long term. We need a better identity, better vision to communicate to our region that downtown should be where the region focuses our efforts to attract investment. By combining city and county....shiat, downtown would have no say in anything.
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Of course you can. Even if this were Pittsburgh or Kansas City, it still is healthy for the region's Central Business District to actually be a central business district. That's how you can better retain the core and increase efficiency and mobility. As for the federal government, what the heck are they thinking? One the one hand, the Obama Administration is spending billions to encourage transit and healthy connections and here the GSA is taking 800 jobs away... 650 of them right at a freaking metrolink stop and moving them to a car-dependent location. If there were truly regional cooperation on economic development, Slay and Dooley would have agreed to press GSA/VA to consolidate downtown.zink wrote:How many people that are pissed at slay, also support the city/county merger? Seems like you can't have it both ways.
The essence of the matter is that if we're comfortable with downtown becoming a neighborhood with lots of tourism and entertainment amenities but one that continues to bleed jobs then we'll fall further behind more urban progressive cities. My fear is that Slay is indeed comfortable with this.
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For the record, I support the city-county merger, but I don't think Slay is in a better position to deliver on this issue than any other politician. I suppose that's less of a statement about his leadership and more about the intransigence of our area's leaders and many of its people when it comes to the topic of city reeentry into the county or city-county consolidation.zink wrote:How many people that are pissed at slay, also support the city/county merger? Seems like you can't have it both ways.
I'd love for it to happen in the same way that I'd love to see everlasting world peace, to age like George Clooney or John Stamos, and to own a Ferrari 458 Italia. I can always hold out hope, but I don't like my chances.
On a more serious note, I think you made a great point about the city's future role in the metro area. I think for a realistic shot at reentry or consolidation, the city and county could and should do more to get their own houses in order first.
+1threeonefour wrote: I'd love for it to happen in the same way that I'd love to see everlasting world peace, to age like George Clooney or John Stamos, and to own a Ferrari 458 Italia. I can always hold out hope, but I don't like my chances.
On a more serious note, I think you made a great point about the city's future role in the metro area. I think for a realistic shot at reentry or consolidation, the city and county could and should do more to get their own houses in order first.