dbInSouthCity wrote:dont be silly, locally fares cover 18% of the cost of operation user fees for road network also include car sales tax, licensing/registration fees..
- 9,564
^ thanks for the chart. As I said in the later post. Local roads are about 50% user fees and 50 other.
That chart is a nation wide look, for missouri all of the state funding is user fees. There is no property tax that goes to MoDOT ( in mo the yearly tax on your car goes to the city you live in) and in the last 3-4 years yes the federal highway trust fund has been supplemented with about 25% of general revenue funds. So we can say that 25% of MoDOTs federal funds (800m) is general revenue or about 10% of its total budget, the other 90% is user fees
That chart is a nation wide look, for missouri all of the state funding is user fees. There is no property tax that goes to MoDOT ( in mo the yearly tax on your car goes to the city you live in) and in the last 3-4 years yes the federal highway trust fund has been supplemented with about 25% of general revenue funds. So we can say that 25% of MoDOTs federal funds (800m) is general revenue or about 10% of its total budget, the other 90% is user fees
Another piece of info to note. Generally federal funds are 80% fed and 20% state match. But if a project is on a road that's designed as a freight route or used heavily for freight that match can go all the way to 95% fed 5% state. As everyone is aware MoDOT and other state dots are having matching issue so MoDOT is submitting a long list of current projects on the STIP that would qualify for the 95/5 match in order to stretch the state match longer before losing fed funds.
Whats crazy about the N-S Metrolink debate is that many of the people against it were the same people that were against original Metrolink. They said nobody would ride it, we don't have the density, and the overall "St. Louis sucks so keep it the same" mantra and Metrolink has succeeded in spite of the naysayers. Also it has been proven over and over again that "transportation experts" overestimate highway usage numbers and underestimate transit ridership projections. So when these "experts" say N-S line will be a boondoggle and not add anything to the area, I remember that they ride the Page extension home every night.
Also, nobody is even talking about the economic boon that a N-S Metrolink would be to neighborhoods that have seen better days, so many opportunities for reinvestment. That has to be taken into consideration as a major argument for the investment.
Also, nobody is even talking about the economic boon that a N-S Metrolink would be to neighborhoods that have seen better days, so many opportunities for reinvestment. That has to be taken into consideration as a major argument for the investment.
goat314 wrote:So when these "experts" say N-S line will be a boondoggle and not add anything to the area, I remember that they ride the Page extension home every night.
- 1,868
You mean "tragic".goat314 wrote:Whats crazy about the N-S Metrolink debate
Where are you getting 50% for local? It looks like much less than that to me.dbInSouthCity wrote:^ thanks for the chart. As I said in the later post. Local roads are about 50% user fees and 50 other.
- 9,564
again the chart is a national look...it varies widely from city to city.bprop wrote:Where are you getting 50% for local? It looks like much less than that to me.dbInSouthCity wrote:^ thanks for the chart. As I said in the later post. Local roads are about 50% user fees and 50 other.
Wasn't sure where to put this. IMO the Metro logo stacks up pretty well - simple, but not overly simplified:
![]()
From Atlantic Cities
From Atlantic Cities
Trailnet rips new EWGateway Transportation plan.
They are totally correct too.
http://files.ctctcdn.com/f6c373dd001/f8 ... 321a32.pdf
They are totally correct too.
http://files.ctctcdn.com/f6c373dd001/f8 ... 321a32.pdf
From a recent Post article on encouraging public transportation use:
![]()
^ Interesting map....I see a few things have changed. Is the county now considering N-S in their study? It seems like the South line has changed back to the old ROW instead of Jefferson. Is this being considered to speed up travel times or reduce cost? I wish there was a empty rail ROW in North City, that would make N-S even more feasible and keep the light-heavy rail feel of our system. I personally feel we will see one big metrolink expansion in our generation, the question is whether Metro/EWGateway picks the people's line (N-S line) or the big biz line (Westport). All of my sources say that the push will be for Westport, but who knows the need for federal funds may make N-S the only viable expansion in the system now. Time will tell. My hope is that the region doesn't just abandon all Metrolink expansion plans if the power elite dont get their way with Westport and do the right thing and build N-S.
^That's a Post-Dispatch created map, not a Metro map. So, I think the N-S inclusion is just for historical context. The real purpose of the map is to show the 3-4 routes that the County is considering for expansion - Metro North, Metro South, and Daniel Boone/Westport. N-S Metrolink is not being considered.
The illustration also shows two possibilities for the where a Westport Line would branch off, which is just laughable (not sure where the Post came up with that idea, maybe some of the VERY old initial studies). The County would never choose an alignment that branched off near the Forsyth Station and headed west along (or assumedly under) Pershing, Maryland, or Forsyth. It's simply cost-prohibitive and not really necessary or even in Clayton's or Metro's interest.
I meant to link to the Post Article which makes that a little more clear.
The illustration also shows two possibilities for the where a Westport Line would branch off, which is just laughable (not sure where the Post came up with that idea, maybe some of the VERY old initial studies). The County would never choose an alignment that branched off near the Forsyth Station and headed west along (or assumedly under) Pershing, Maryland, or Forsyth. It's simply cost-prohibitive and not really necessary or even in Clayton's or Metro's interest.
I meant to link to the Post Article which makes that a little more clear.
- 1,792
my interpretation is that the map isn't really to scale and is attempting to show how the tracks might intersect in clayton. The triangular track intersection would fit on the land behind enterprise he in clayton.The illustration also shows two possibilities for the where a Westport Line would branch off, which is just laughable (not sure where the Post came up with that idea, maybe some of the VERY old initial studies). The County would never choose an alignment that branched off near the Forsyth Station and headed west along (or assumedly under) Pershing, Maryland, or Forsyth. It's simply cost-prohibitive and not really necessary or even in Clayton's or Metro's interest.
I wouldn't be mad, if we end up with Westport and I like the idea of a grade separated system. I just feel that N-S line would be way more transformative for the city and region. I also think a N-S line would be more heavily used and spark more TOD. I think we are essentially looking at Cross County pt. II when we look at Westport, most municipalities will likely put up barriers and want nothing to do with the line. Not to mention municipalities will likely lobby to have expensive tunneling and bells and whistles that will drive the cost up significantly....again look at Cross County. All of this to a part of the County that has weak population density.
I think the N-S line would be similar to the Green Line in Minneapolis and would exceed ridership expectations.
http://streets.mn/2015/06/13/green-line ... aint-paul/
Also, the Westport would need to have direct connection to CWE, Cortex, Downtown for it to have the best functionality.
I think the N-S line would be similar to the Green Line in Minneapolis and would exceed ridership expectations.
http://streets.mn/2015/06/13/green-line ... aint-paul/
Also, the Westport would need to have direct connection to CWE, Cortex, Downtown for it to have the best functionality.
Ideally a Westport line's eastern terminus would be Emerson Park (the previous terminus for the Blue Line), so that it would create 7 minute headways from Forest Park Station through Downtown.goat314 wrote:Also, the Westport would need to have direct connection to CWE, Cortex, Downtown for it to have the best functionality.
- 985
I don't think it would really need all that much tunneling considering the heavy use of existing railroad right of way. Also in regards to TOD, it does seem there is a real possibility and willingness of players in the area especially around the Monsanto area.goat314 wrote:I wouldn't be mad, if we end up with Westport and I like the idea of a grade separated system. I just feel that N-S line would be way more transformative for the city and region. I also think a N-S line would be more heavily used and spark more TOD. I think we are essentially looking at Cross County pt. II when we look at Westport, most municipalities will likely put up barriers and want nothing to do with the line. Not to mention municipalities will likely lobby to have expensive tunneling and bells and whistles that will drive the cost up significantly....again look at Cross County. All of this to a part of the County that has weak population density.
I think the N-S line would be similar to the Green Line in Minneapolis and would exceed ridership expectations.
http://streets.mn/2015/06/13/green-line ... aint-paul/
Also, the Westport would need to have direct connection to CWE, Cortex, Downtown for it to have the best functionality.
Cool...like I said, I wouldnt be necessarily mad if the Westport line is the next line, but I just think the N-S line is the best available line and definitely the most federally competitive by a couple metrics
I hope that if the county does go rogue and build Westport, which is what I'm hearing, that the city turns the St. Louis Streetcar into the N-S line. Who knows, maybe through the public engagement period we will see an overwhelming number of people come in support for N-S (especially in light of Ferguson) and that will change the conversation. There is no need for more studies, we have a plan, we just need the county and city on the same page. N-S would be the obvious next line, if the county and city were one.
I hope that if the county does go rogue and build Westport, which is what I'm hearing, that the city turns the St. Louis Streetcar into the N-S line. Who knows, maybe through the public engagement period we will see an overwhelming number of people come in support for N-S (especially in light of Ferguson) and that will change the conversation. There is no need for more studies, we have a plan, we just need the county and city on the same page. N-S would be the obvious next line, if the county and city were one.
- 1,868
Wouldn't it be great if having two regional governments meant things got done twice as fast instead of twice as slow?
In Fantasy World, Westport gets MetroLink and becomes and awesome TOD for rich people that convinces the suburban populace that TOD is more than just charity for poor people and politicians with connections to construction firms.
In Fantasy World, Westport gets MetroLink and becomes and awesome TOD for rich people that convinces the suburban populace that TOD is more than just charity for poor people and politicians with connections to construction firms.
- 3,235
^ NPR and Marketplace have a weeklong run of infrastructure stories that are pretty good. This morning they had a story on how difficult it is to get a container out of Port of Newark once it gets off the ship. The story revolved around one truck driver.
Unfortunately, most of these stories end up preaching to the choir while the masses get the idea that they are entitled to a pay raise every year, someone else shouldn't (which is anyone working minimum wage) and having something without paying for it is somehow a right that a politician agrees with. Senator Lee once again introduced the tired lets go backwards as a nation legislation to once again to do away with the federal gas tax and put everything onto the state instead of meaningful funding and reform. Which conveniently gets the red states out of transit now that the interstate system is in place while keeping FAA and federal funds fully intact as well as dredging of the inland water system for barges of grain and coal.
http://www.progressiverailroading.com/f ... tax--44780
Unfortunately, most of these stories end up preaching to the choir while the masses get the idea that they are entitled to a pay raise every year, someone else shouldn't (which is anyone working minimum wage) and having something without paying for it is somehow a right that a politician agrees with. Senator Lee once again introduced the tired lets go backwards as a nation legislation to once again to do away with the federal gas tax and put everything onto the state instead of meaningful funding and reform. Which conveniently gets the red states out of transit now that the interstate system is in place while keeping FAA and federal funds fully intact as well as dredging of the inland water system for barges of grain and coal.
http://www.progressiverailroading.com/f ... tax--44780
Policy based on reality and lack of political will sets in for MoDOT. They were smart to start cutting back on facilities, equipment and staff a few years ago and now making the right move for the moment. A nice quote from Scott O
The disappointing part in my mind is alderman not embracing a bolder city infrastructure bond revolved around the streets. Why, talk about an opportunity fro the city to embrace great street initiatives for Gravios and Olive by taking them over once and for all from the state, rebuild west downtown grid and make a push to remove and replace the raised section of downtown I70 with blvd. The city could be in a position to actually remove some of the lane miles from MoDOT's inventory while improving and embracing an structure that would better serve the city in the long run. MoDOT is politically in a position where it needs and is willing telling its constituents that it can't maintain even the status quo.
http://www.stltoday.com/news/local/govt ... 354d1.html
No Missouri Department of Transportation expansion projects, such as new lanes, interchanges or bridges, are planned over the next five years. That represents a first in the department’s history, the result of a bleak funding outlook
The disappointing part in my mind is alderman not embracing a bolder city infrastructure bond revolved around the streets. Why, talk about an opportunity fro the city to embrace great street initiatives for Gravios and Olive by taking them over once and for all from the state, rebuild west downtown grid and make a push to remove and replace the raised section of downtown I70 with blvd. The city could be in a position to actually remove some of the lane miles from MoDOT's inventory while improving and embracing an structure that would better serve the city in the long run. MoDOT is politically in a position where it needs and is willing telling its constituents that it can't maintain even the status quo.
http://www.stltoday.com/news/local/govt ... 354d1.html
No Missouri Department of Transportation expansion projects, such as new lanes, interchanges or bridges, are planned over the next five years. That represents a first in the department’s history, the result of a bleak funding outlook
Conservative lawmakers are supporting a gas tax hike, MODoT is imposing a statewide moratorium on road expansion, contractors are turning to rail projects to find work, the County is studying how to deploy Prop A funds, a new Metrolink Station is moving ahead, and streetcars are returning to the City after a 50 year hiatus.
The Times They Are A Changin'.
The Times They Are A Changin'.
^ Interesting perspective about contractors looking at rail projects for work. I've always wondered why local construction firms have not came out for major Metrolink expansion. I'd imagine a campaign to build out Metrolink like DART in Dallas or Fastracks in Denver would create tens of thousands of construction jobs over a couple decade period. I've heard from a few people in the construction industry that St. Louis has kind of a weak construction market, we simply don't build enough. The lack of investment in infrastructure on the state and local level has definitely hurt our economy. Much of the sunbelt boom (aside from weather) was predicated on perpetual construction, even if subsidized, building for the sake of building, the idea that if you stop building, renovating, expanding etc. your town is dead. In many ways the construction industrial complex in the Sunbelt became what manufacturing was to the Rust Belt. Could St. Louis possibly create its own demand by simply subsidizing major construction?
Only reason I say this is because it seems like St. Louis is not only just a victim of bad public policy, but a general market failure. We used to understand in America that when the free market fails in certain areas, the government needs to intervene. Unfortunately, the past 30-40 years the "free market" kool-aid drinking has warped many logical minds. How else do you explain why America's lack of high speed rail, crumbling infrastructure, large swaths of ghetto areas in major U.S. cities, etc.?