There are over 1000 residential units on the way downtown. While the market may be close to the max a BPV tower would sell out pretty quick.sirshankalot wrote:My commecial real estate peeps say no new high-rise downtown construction for at least 2 years..and that includes BPV...Why? No demand..
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^ Assuming a BPV tower would be luxury, I think it would have very little competition from the other units in the pipeline. Tease some plans and set up a leasing office!
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Walked by tonight after the boat show around 7ish. I didn't see many lights on
Isn't the Cincinnati example just symptomatic of what happens when the region focuses on downtown. The addition of more corporate jobs there, continued high end retail, and smart rehabilitation like Over-the Rhine to me make the subsequent uptick in rentals almost inevitable. Why this trend or at least desire continues to evade our regions' leadership is beyond me.
I also don't fault Clayton in anyway. Clayton is great and a reflection of what our region could be doing within the city limits if it wanted. Clayton should just be an extension of what is happening in the city, not the other way around.
I've been referencing since last summer that my job now takes me all over the county. Adding up all of the corporate buildings littered around west county (eg: Edward Jones, Scottrade, Century Link, RGA) it hurts to compare them all to a struggling corporate downtown.
I also don't fault Clayton in anyway. Clayton is great and a reflection of what our region could be doing within the city limits if it wanted. Clayton should just be an extension of what is happening in the city, not the other way around.
I've been referencing since last summer that my job now takes me all over the county. Adding up all of the corporate buildings littered around west county (eg: Edward Jones, Scottrade, Century Link, RGA) it hurts to compare them all to a struggling corporate downtown.
There's zero reason to build a high rise in the STL CBD any time in the near future. Those towers are crazy expensive and therefore you need very high rents from good credit tenants (can't build towers for small but cool start-ups). There has to be so much demand to make any sense of a development like that. Unless it's so subsidized by the City and State that the developer doesn't need to get new construction rent. This is the LAST thing St Louis needs.
The focus needs to be on redeveloping and leasing the EXISTING huge buildings we have downtown. ATT building, Railway Exchange, Jefferson Arms, etc.
Then, once the market is 90-92 percent occupied with decent rents and strong tenants, whether apartments and/or office, you can start thinking about new construction buildings.
Clayton is the only place in St Louis metro with this kind of real demand. Creve Coeur, Des Peres, and Chesterfield have the demand as well but there's no reason out there to go vertical so you'll just see buildings like RGA, CityPlace, Delmar Gardens, etc
Only realistic caveat to the above would be a HQs for a large corporation
The focus needs to be on redeveloping and leasing the EXISTING huge buildings we have downtown. ATT building, Railway Exchange, Jefferson Arms, etc.
Then, once the market is 90-92 percent occupied with decent rents and strong tenants, whether apartments and/or office, you can start thinking about new construction buildings.
Clayton is the only place in St Louis metro with this kind of real demand. Creve Coeur, Des Peres, and Chesterfield have the demand as well but there's no reason out there to go vertical so you'll just see buildings like RGA, CityPlace, Delmar Gardens, etc
Only realistic caveat to the above would be a HQs for a large corporation
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^ I agree the focus should be on existing buildings but there are some good reasons to pursue a BPV residential tower....
First, a BPV tower would be have broader appeal than anything else downtown. Wealthy Cardinal Nation fans open to luxury high-rise living wouldn't necessarily entertain something like The Chemical or another potential luxury historic rehab. It is a different, unique product and I just don't see how a modest BPV tower - something along the lines of Tower OPOP but with larger units - would retard the ability to renovate existing buildings elsewhere downtown. A quality product associated with one of the most beloved brands in national sport with great views and great services in a "safe" part of downtown would sell at top-of-the-market rates.
Second, a successful BPV tower would actually create demand for additional downtown living and make it more likely that existing buildings would be rehabbed. Success begets success.
Anyway, I'd love to see something announced on par with the Cordish towers in KC Power & Light... start with one and move on to the second when the first fills up. A modest boutique hotel could also add some height to one of the towers.
First, a BPV tower would be have broader appeal than anything else downtown. Wealthy Cardinal Nation fans open to luxury high-rise living wouldn't necessarily entertain something like The Chemical or another potential luxury historic rehab. It is a different, unique product and I just don't see how a modest BPV tower - something along the lines of Tower OPOP but with larger units - would retard the ability to renovate existing buildings elsewhere downtown. A quality product associated with one of the most beloved brands in national sport with great views and great services in a "safe" part of downtown would sell at top-of-the-market rates.
Second, a successful BPV tower would actually create demand for additional downtown living and make it more likely that existing buildings would be rehabbed. Success begets success.
Anyway, I'd love to see something announced on par with the Cordish towers in KC Power & Light... start with one and move on to the second when the first fills up. A modest boutique hotel could also add some height to one of the towers.
We need to get the chemical building up and running with a CVS or something like that on the ground floor that with the arcade binding would really set off that part of downtown.
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We also have to remember though that many cities, like Cincinnati and Kansas City, are providing much more in subsidies than we do. I think we need to be wise about it, but I believe beefing up downtown subsidy would be a positive.blzhrpmd2 wrote:Isn't the Cincinnati example just symptomatic of what happens when the region focuses on downtown. The addition of more corporate jobs there, continued high end retail, and smart rehabilitation like Over-the Rhine to me make the subsequent uptick in rentals almost inevitable. Why this trend or at least desire continues to evade our regions' leadership is beyond me.
What type of subsidies are being provided in Cin and KC?roger wyoming II wrote:We also have to remember though that many cities, like Cincinnati and Kansas City, are providing much more in subsidies than we do. I think we need to be wise about it, but I believe beefing up downtown subsidy would be a positive.
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Much of the subsidization in Cincinnati is related to jobs, rather than financing, though there has been some of that, too. Cincinnati negotiates tax breaks on payroll taxes. It also gives or transfers state or federal tax credits to development corporations who in-turn coordinate it with bank loans and other for-profit investment.stlien wrote:What type of subsidies are being provided in Cin and KC?roger wyoming II wrote:We also have to remember though that many cities, like Cincinnati and Kansas City, are providing much more in subsidies than we do. I think we need to be wise about it, but I believe beefing up downtown subsidy would be a positive.
To be fair, Cincinnati has nothing like Clayton to compete against. If a company or individual wants to connect with the most important people and companies in metro Cincinnati, downtown is the only game in town, unlike in St. Louis. That's not an issue of subsidies, but of metro structure that really explains St. Louis problems as compared to Cincy, Kansas City, Pittsburgh, etc.
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Cincy & KC are directly providing significant gap financing and/or outright grants for some of these mixed-use developments, which STL typically does not do. Cincy & KC also typically offer much longer tax abatement terms. Here is what Cincy has agreed to for a $77 million project that will have an 8 story, 208 unit luxury tower sitting on top of a 925 space garage and 25,000 square feet of retail/commercial...stlien wrote:What type of subsidies are being provided in Cin and KC?roger wyoming II wrote:We also have to remember though that many cities, like Cincinnati and Kansas City, are providing much more in subsidies than we do. I think we need to be wise about it, but I believe beefing up downtown subsidy would be a positive.
- a $5 million direct contribution (to the developer) for the apartment portion
- a $4.5 million loan (forgivable, I believe) for the garage/retail portion
- 30 year tax abatement
The equity is being paid from a city TIF fund that can be used for downtown developments.
http://www.bizjournals.com/cincinnati/b ... l?page=all
Saint Louis City did provide a nearly $5 million loan to Millennium for the Arcade-Wright project (not sure if its forgivable or not) , but I believe that is atypical and largely due to the fact that LCRA owned the building. Again I think the City needs to be smart about it, but I think it would be helpful to commit more funds to downtown mixed-use residential projects.... we need to speed up development as much as we reasonably can.
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I'd argue that the importance of a few million in bridge financing by Cincinnati's government is much less than the value of the negotiated payroll and city income tax reductions that accumulate over many years. Also, in Ohio, local governments are layered on top of each other rather than being separate as in Missouri. That means that downtown Cincinnati is in Cincinnati AND Hamilton County simultaneously. The county had been an important player in Downtown Cincy's development in some cases.roger wyoming II wrote:Cincy & KC are directly providing significant gap financing and/or outright grants for some of these mixed-use developments, which STL typically does not do. Cincy & KC also typically offer much longer tax abatement terms. Here is what Cincy has agreed to for a $77 million project that will have an 8 story, 208 unit luxury tower sitting on top of a 925 space garage and 25,000 square feet of retail/commercial...stlien wrote:What type of subsidies are being provided in Cin and KC?roger wyoming II wrote:We also have to remember though that many cities, like Cincinnati and Kansas City, are providing much more in subsidies than we do. I think we need to be wise about it, but I believe beefing up downtown subsidy would be a positive.
- a $5 million direct contribution (to the developer) for the apartment portion
- a $4.5 million loan (forgivable, I believe) for the garage/retail portion
- 30 year tax abatement
The equity is being paid from a city TIF fund that can be used for downtown developments.
http://www.bizjournals.com/cincinnati/b ... l?page=all
Saint Louis City did provide a nearly $5 million loan to Millennium for the Arcade-Wright project (not sure if its forgivable or not) , but I believe that is atypical and largely due to the fact that LCRA owned the building. Again I think the City needs to be smart about it, but I think it would be helpful to commit more funds to downtown mixed-use residential projects.... we need to speed up development as much as we reasonably can.
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^ Missouri isn't different from Ohio with respect to local government jurisdiction... downtown KC is in KC AND Jackson County; Springfield is in Springfield AND Greene County, etc..
And the point remains the same, is it worth STL City greasing the wheels more to increase downtown residential (and employment) by being more generous with subsidies? I think with a smart plan, yes, it would be.
And the point remains the same, is it worth STL City greasing the wheels more to increase downtown residential (and employment) by being more generous with subsidies? I think with a smart plan, yes, it would be.
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So, downtown St. Louis is in St. Louis County and St. Louis City simultaneously?roger wyoming II wrote:^ Missouri isn't different from Ohio with respect to local government jurisdiction... downtown KC is in KC AND Jackson County; Springfield is in Springfield AND Greene County, etc..
And the point remains the same, is it worth STL City greasing the wheels more to increase downtown residential (and employment) by being more generous with subsidies? I think with a smart plan, yes, it would be.
^Of course not. The point was that outside of St. Louis City and County, there is nothing unique about the governmental structures in Missouri. St. Louis is just F'd up in both the City and County when it comes to government. But that's a topic for another thread.
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Then my point about the effects of Cincinnati's layered local governments versus St. Louis' separate local governments remains.MattnSTL wrote:^Of course not. The point was that outside of St. Louis City and County, there is nothing unique about the governmental structures in Missouri. St. Louis is just F'd up in both the City and County when it comes to government. But that's a topic for another thread.
It's been 13 months now. Does anyone know or have any idea how leasing is going for OPOP?
I recently got a calzone at Sauce on the Side, and decided to ask the guys there if they knew how well the tower was leasing. They told me it was 85% leased at this point, which seems like great news.wabash wrote:It's been 13 months now. Does anyone know or have any idea how leasing is going for OPOP?
I know that previously, the website was only listing a certain amount of units as "available," though. I can't seem to find that page on there at this point, so I don't know if this 85% is of the "available" units or the total number of units.
Anyway, it's time for residential at BPV.
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I heard something similar from a resident of the building this week. He said they are around 80% full.jsbru wrote:I recently got a calzone at Sauce on the Side, and decided to ask the guys there if they knew how well the tower was leasing. They told me it was 85% leased at this point, which seems like great news.wabash wrote:It's been 13 months now. Does anyone know or have any idea how leasing is going for OPOP?
I know that previously, the website was only listing a certain amount of units as "available," though. I can't seem to find that page on there at this point, so I don't know if this 85% is of the "available" units or the total number of units.
Anyway, it's time for residential at BPV.
An informal survey of the number of balconies that have furniture on them suggests there is validity to this 80-85% theory.
I'd say there's furniture out on well over half--but that's got to be a conservative estimate of which ones have been rented, since if it were me, it would probably take me months to get a couple of chairs out there.
I'd say there's furniture out on well over half--but that's got to be a conservative estimate of which ones have been rented, since if it were me, it would probably take me months to get a couple of chairs out there.
^Great news. It's taken a little longer than hoped, but between 80-85% leasing and Sauce on the Side, it's great to see the Robert's Tower fully activated. Just in time for 720 Olive and Arcade to come online.
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^ yup... it would have been nice to have units snapped up on pre-leasing, but if this thing is indeed at least 75% occupied that seems to be fairly decent after roughly a year. Also, it should put to rest any fears about a BPV tower as demand for those would be much more than Tower OPOP. No excuses!
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Reads almost like an advertisement. Awesome pics, too bad it was so dreary out.
http://m.stltoday.com/lifestyles/home-a ... touch=true
http://m.stltoday.com/lifestyles/home-a ... touch=true