Actually, out of all that, I think I may see that as the most interesting. While striving to be a "progressive city," should we not promote local stores? Looking at the business side, shouldn't we be happy that a couple successful grocery store chains operate out of St. Louis?
MattnSTL wrote:Looking at the business side, shouldn't we be happy that a couple successful grocery store chains operate out of St. Louis?
Absolutely. I think it's a plus that Schnucks and Dierbergs are outgrowths of local mom-and-pop grocers. I don't really see how it could be a negative.
I remember the skeptics, prior to the opening of Culinaria, wondering if the Schnuck family had the desire and/or enough of a clue to operate a successful downtown grocery store. Well, I guess that burning question has been settled.
I still like to shop at Dillard's and Macy's whenever I get the chance. Unfortunately, St. Louis lost many jobs and a bit of local history and tradition when the former acquired Stix Baer & Fuller in the early 1980s and the latter acquired Famous-Barr and parent May Company earlier this decade. However, traditional department stores in most cities have either closed or have been folded into one of these two companies or a handful of others through a massive wave of consolidation that's taken place over the last 30-40 years. That's business, but based on Arch's definition, can we say is it progressive?
So yeah, I like the fact that two of our largest grocers have bucked that trend. If that makes us less 'progressive', so be it.
Well St. Louis seems to be trying to emulate Portland in at least one aspect--we've gotten the 6 dreary chilly rainy days for every 1 sunny one down this month. Does that make us progressive? Betcha our suicides are up now too!
Maybe calling I-64 highway 40 is more of a mindset than a tradition?! Do we as St. Louisans do this all the time? I get the point and it's something to think about. As for grocery stores...I'm all for local chains even if it pushes out competition such as Kroger, IGA, and the Nationals that used to be here. However, all the years of local support sure doesn't change the fact that companies like MayCo, Boatmans, AG Edwards, A-B, etc took the money and run leaving our support high and dry. Maybe it's an example, using grocery stores, that highlights our blind support which leads to a lack of variety in competition and keeps us at the mercy of our corporations who don't always invest in the community even though we invest heavily in them.
Arch has always been a staunch supporter of STL. Maybe life outside of St. Louis gives you a different perspective on the city and as much as we all want to cheerlead for the STL, sometimes we need to look in the mirror. I live in the Twin Cities now, one of the 'progressive' cities and what makes it progressive is a mindset that was put in place most likely by non natives. The natives are more than a little yokel IMO, yet because publications are telling them they are intelligent and progressive they believe it, accept it, and begin to live it. Lightrail isn't what makes a city progressive, it's an important progressive element. What is progressive is an all inclusive forward thinking proactive mindset that is backed up by the peoples' actions and the accountability of its leadership. When our mayor gets behind the demolition of the Century for a garage and is not held accountable because he is considered better than a possible north side replacement...the problem is the mindset of the masses who allowed this to happen. BTW, isn't DESCO part of Schnucks?
That is what I took from Arch's comments, an inward look at things we seem to accept as status quo in St. Lou. I didn't take it as a bash, I took it as an outsiders (STL guy living in Houston) harsh view or a supporters' frustration on issues we seem to accept because of one bs reason or another. Or maybe because we believe what the publications say about St. Louis...then we too begin to live it.
The people on this forum are the minority in the St. Louis region. We believe when the majority doesn't or doesn't care to. We are a progressive element that needs to inform others, and ourselves, not just about the victories, but about the historic problems that seem to forever exist in holding us down.
And guess what: whatever you want to call I-64/40 is fine with me. I, for one, think colorful local traditions make a place more livable.
I completely agree MDTH, this is even more absurd than the grocery store comment.
I used to think it was strange, but I haven't lived in St. Louis my entire life. The more I see other places, the more I accept it as one of our charming quirks. I don't see how it's much different than Chicagoland residents referring to highways by names instead of numbers. No big deal.
southsidepride wrote:Well St. Louis seems to be trying to emulate Portland in at least one aspect--we've gotten the 6 dreary chilly rainy days for every 1 sunny one down this month. Does that make us progressive? Betcha our suicides are up now too!
It has rained, but it hasn't been even remotely cold.
innov8ion wrote:
The article's thesis does not involve a city's success -- it's about progressiveness.
Do you view Pittsburgh as more progressive than St. Louis?
Do you view Chicago as more progressive than St. Louis?
I don't know enough about Pittsburgh to have an opinion. As for Chicago, I don't think of it as particularly progressive. They have a no-smoking ban and decent transit at least.
Arch City wrote:St. Louis isn't seen as progressive - not necessarily because of race (look at Atlanta) - but because it is a social dump in many ways.
St. Louis is a social dump for a number of reasons.
-You have no major public research universities. UMSL is a glorified community college.
-No public medical school. No public law school. I wonder why?
Hmmm. Using this criteria, Boston and Philadelphia are in trouble as well (as are Des Moines and Omaha, but that's not very dramatic)
As to the med and law school issue: that was a determination made by the state when they created the University of Missouri system several decades ago. When creating the system, the state looked into creating a med and or law school here in St. Louis, but it came down to money. We already had two of each, and if I recall correctly, KC had neither at the time. So the state simply decided to put them where they were needed, and to avoid competition with older, more established programs.
Not our region's fault--it was a (quite reasonable) decision made by state authorities.
ibleedlou wrote:Maybe calling I-64 highway 40 is more of a mindset than a tradition?! Do we as St. Louisans do this all the time? I get the point and it's something to think about (I agree. Hello.....1904 is gone. Way Gone. I mean, who cares about your freakin' World's Fair that took place over 100 years ago? Shut up already! Can we strive for something new for crying out loud?)
As for grocery stores...I'm all for local chains even if it pushes out competition such as Kroger, IGA, and the Nationals that used to be here. However, all the years of local support sure doesn't change the fact that companies like MayCo, Boatmans, AG Edwards, A-B, etc took the money and run leaving our support high and dry (All of those companies seemed to lack vision and did not get with the "progressive" times (ironic considering that many of them were run by long time St. Louisans), which ultimately got them swallowed.) Maybe it's an example, using grocery stores, that highlights our blind support which leads to a lack of variety in competition (and potential for real internationalism) and keeps us at the mercy of our corporations who don't always invest in the community even though we invest heavily in them (BINGO).
Arch has always been a staunch supporter of STL (This is very true. Thanks). (I believe if St. Louis wants to be become international or become perceived as "progressive", there is still some work to be done. A headline or two in the New York Times about Citygarden is not going to cut it.) Maybe life outside of St. Louis gives you a different perspective on the city and as much as we all want to cheerlead for the STL, sometimes we need to look in the mirror (Yes, this is true. I cheerlead for St. Louis because I know it can be better. Blaming the poor perception some people have of St. Louis' progressiveness on race is the typical, insular, north-south, city-vs-county race-baiting bs that keeps St. Louis from progressing in the eyes of many - including mine. Why live in a racial cesspool where the leadership is sorry? Houston has its social problems, but the leadership strives hard to have a harmonious community. And Houston's history is not all that different from St. Louis'. Fortunately, there are people in the trenches trying to reverse the madness in St. Louis. Good Luck.)
I live in the Twin Cities now, one of the 'progressive' cities and what makes it progressive is a mindset that was put in place most likely by non natives. The natives are more than a little yokel IMO, yet because publications are telling them they are intelligent and progressive they believe it, accept it, and begin to live it. Lightrail isn't what makes a city progressive, it's an important progressive element (BINGO). What is progressive is an all inclusive forward thinking proactive mindset (not an insular one) that is backed up by the peoples' actions and the accountability of its leadership. When our mayor gets behind the demolition of the Century for a garage and is not held accountable because he is considered better than a possible north side replacement...the problem is the mindset of the masses who allowed this to happen. BTW, isn't DESCO part of Schnucks (DESCO is owned by the Schnucks family. I believe it is a separate arm within the conglomerate.) ?
That is what I took from Arch's comments, an inward look at things we seem to accept as status quo in St. Lou (True, true. Not very "progressive".). I didn't take it as a bash, I took it as an outsiders (STL guy living in Houston) BTW, nowadays I live between St. Louis and Houston. harsh view or a supporters' frustration on issues we seem to accept because of one bs reason or another. Or maybe because we believe what the publications say about St. Louis...then we too begin to live it (Very good analogy).
The people on this forum are the minority in the St. Louis region. We believe when the majority doesn't or doesn't care to. We are a progressive element that needs to inform others, and ourselves, not just about the victories, but about the historic problems that seem to forever exist in holding us down. (True. And it's not about the positive things that exist in St. Louis - as there are tons- it's about the negative things that keep St. Louis from being seen as "progressive". Don't follow the leader - be the leader. The comment above (PsychoTim) is so typical from some people in St. Louis. In essence...."Well....Boston and Philly don't have public laws and medicals either, so why bother!" W-T-F?!?!)
Doh....strengthening your educational foundation and programs in YOUR COMMUNITY helps to strengthen the local community. Everybody can't afford private laws and medicals.
^^ Right, but looking to the future a change may be in order. The Indiana University system is a decent example. Their medical school is in Indianapolis and they have a second, independent, law school there as well. When talking about research collaboration, internships for students, funding, etc. it makes sense for these to be in large urban centers. And the idea of competition is a bit outdated as the cities that will succeed most are those with a critical mass of expertise. Another school of medicine or law school in St. Louis would be successful and a big asset.
By the way, using Boston as an example is ridiculous given the number of and size of the medical and law schools present in that city.
I find this debate bizarre. Who cares? It IS, in fact, still Missouri State Highway 40. And it will not cease to be, just because MODOT or USDOT or whomever prefers "I64." It was also called I64 before all of the construction work. Were we backward in 2002 for calling that stretch of pavement "Highway 40" instead of "I64" then? Or just now, because of an ad campaign? It's not uncommon for two differently designated highways to share the same pavement. It's also known as the "Daniel Boone Expressway." Are we backwards for not using that official designation? I mean, seriously, what's in a name if we all know what we're talking about.
And W T F does the World's Fair have anything to do with this? No one brought that up. It's just a common, tired way to bash St. Louis and its residents. It's an old chestnut. I don't hear people talk about the Fair on a day to day basis. In fact, I can't remember the last time I heard anyone talk about it. Except for maybe Patrick Murphy. People not from here, however, think we're obsessed with it, like some crazy old cat woman, just because there are a few icons left in Forest Park.
If the U.S. Congress were to decide tomorrow that the Statue of Liberty were to be henceforth officially known as "The Freedom Broad," would you consider New Yorkers "provincial" or "backward" for sticking by the old name?
Arch, we get it. St Louis isn't the most progressive place in the Milky Way. But some of the points you made to further your argument were frankly ridiculous.
Grover wrote:^^ Right, but looking to the future a change may be in order. The Indiana University system is a decent example. Their medical school is in Indianapolis and they have a second, independent, law school there as well. When talking about research collaboration, internships for students, funding, etc. it makes sense for these to be in large urban centers. And the idea of competition is a bit outdated as the cities that will succeed most are those with a critical mass of expertise. Another school of medicine or law school in St. Louis would be successful and a big asset.
By the way, using Boston as an example is ridiculous given the number of and size of the medical and law schools present in that city.
Well and good. We can dream, can't we?
But try and convince the state to open a public law and med school here. I'd like to see you try. Considering we can barely squeeze a million out of them for Metro should tell you a bit about how the state feels about its biggest metro. Both the state and the City are going to see HUGE budget shortfalls in the coming year(s). New graduate schools simply won't be in the picture, even if they arguably should be. My point was that St. Louis' problems aren't always, strictly speaking, its own fault.
Do you view Pittsburgh as more progressive than St. Louis?
Do you view Chicago as more progressive than St. Louis?
I don't know enough about Pittsburgh to have an opinion. As for Chicago, I don't think of it as particularly progressive. They have a no-smoking ban and decent transit at least.
lol . Ok. Your perspective says a lot.
Pittsburgh has problems for sure, but I wouldn't call them similar to St. Louis's. The city bustles with life in all of its many business districts (Squirrel Hill, Carson Street/South Side, Shadyside, Oakland (Forbes, etc.), the Strip District, Lawrenceville, Bloomfield, etc.). Also, its bus system is packed to the gills with all sorts of people, but, being from St. Louis, most noticeably white, middle class people.
Pittsburgh has a public muralist, for crying out loud.
While once a down-and-out poor and mostly white city, they're definitely on a major upswing economically.
Grover wrote:^^ Right, but looking to the future a change may be in order. The Indiana University system is a decent example. Their medical school is in Indianapolis and they have a second, independent, law school there as well. When talking about research collaboration, internships for students, funding, etc. it makes sense for these to be in large urban centers. And the idea of competition is a bit outdated as the cities that will succeed most are those with a critical mass of expertise. Another school of medicine or law school in St. Louis would be successful and a big asset.
By the way, using Boston as an example is ridiculous given the number of and size of the medical and law schools present in that city.
Well and good. We can dream, can't we?
But try and convince the state to open a public law and med school here. I'd like to see you try. Considering we can barely squeeze a million out of them for Metro should tell you a bit about how the state feels about its biggest metro. Both the state and the City are going to see HUGE budget shortfalls in the coming year(s). New graduate schools simply won't be in the picture, even if they arguably should be. My point was that St. Louis' problems aren't always, strictly speaking, its own fault.
True. At one point an effort (suggestion?) was made to move the Rolla campus so that engineering students would have better access to internships, corporate recruiting, etc. etc. etc.
steve wrote:Arch, we get it. St Louis isn't the most progressive place in the Milky Way. But some of the points you made to further your argument were frankly ridiculous.
Care to elaborate?
I think instead of personalizing my comments, read beneath the surface like ibleedlou did so beautifully.
The 1904 World's Fair is sacred - like Obama once was.
The comment was a follow up analogy about the "St. Louis mindset"- which tends to be stuck in the past. It wasn't a dig on the 1904 World's Fair per se but the mindset that helps to keep St. Louis unprogressive in many ways.
Nostalgia is good, but so is progressiveness. Too much nostalgia - coupled with a lazy, status quo mindset is not good for progress.
Grover wrote:
By the way, using Boston as an example is ridiculous given the number of and size of the medical and law schools present in that city.
Philadelphia is just as ridiculous, but I'm not the one that equated lack of public law/medical schools with being a social dump. It's disappointing in retrospect, but as Steve wrote, it's not the fault of the city.
