urbanSTL

^ and above.  I can only assume that the loss of tenants is also is a reflection of the change in downtown that once was a much bigger jobs/employment center relative to region, to a more a diverse urban core in part to consolidation (Famous Barr & Missouri Pacific as past examples)  jobs landing in Clayton/West County/Chesterfield, etc as well as future impact from Work from Home at least part of the time.  

Therefore I think it is legitimate to assume that in general you can see less retail/eateries until a more significant residential presence makes up for the loss of daytime employees.  No real hard numbers to give anyone but would it be fair for every downtown daytime employee lost would probably take two or three new residents to make up in spending habits (lunch out, happy hour, a quick errand acorss the street, so on)??   

I'm also believer that at least a credible Convention Space downtown is just as important to the mix as it brings in daytime foot traffic/spenders and skratching my head on latest county infighting being reported but different comment for different thread  

dredger wrote: ↑

Oct 13, 2021

^ and above.  I can only assume that the loss of tenants is also is a reflection of the change in downtown that once was a much bigger jobs/employment center relative to region, to a more a diverse urban core in part to consolidation (Famous Barr & Missouri Pacific as past examples)  jobs landing in Clayton/West County/Chesterfield, etc as well as future impact from Work from Home at least part of the time.  

Therefore I think it is legitimate to assume that in general you can see less retail/eateries until a more significant residential presence makes up for the loss of daytime employees.  No real hard numbers to give anyone but would it be fair for every downtown daytime employee lost would probably take two or three new residents to make up in spending habits (lunch out, happy hour, a quick errand acorss the street, so on)??   

I'm also believer that at least a credible Convention Space downtown is just as important to the mix as it brings in daytime foot traffic/spenders and skratching my head on latest county infighting being reported but different comment for different thread  

I don’t think it’s 3 to 1 R to W ratio. It’s probably closer to 1 to 1. I mean just speaking for myself I start each day with a coffee at blondies (few days a week I’ll get breakfast or lunch there) we don’t have much time for cooking in this house so we are mostly on a downtown restaurant rotation for dinner like Sen Thai, Kimchi guys and a few others

stlgasm wrote: ↑

Oct 13, 2021

Today a family visiting from Knoxville, TN came into our shop. They rented an Airbnb downtown. They’ve been to St. Louis once before several years ago but the city is basically new to them.  They mentioned how mindblowingly cool the City Museum was, followed by “man, your downtown is really hurting though.” So that’s a casual visitor’s impression in a nutshell, I guess.

What ever happened with the public art initiative that was announced a couple years ago in which local artists were commissioned to create art installations/murals on designated facades. I have heard nothing about it.  WHY?

Who would have thought that 75% of downtown workers not returning to the office yet would have an impact.

shadrach wrote: ↑

Oct 13, 2021

Maybe 75% of workers would rather work from home than in a ‘hurting’ downtown.

Maybe it’s covid since all 75% didn’t work from home before it

But it doesn’t, it just needs pre covid normalcy. 2019 downtown was doing really well and It’s still adding new hotels (3 on the way), new residential units (750-1000 coming online in next 2 years between Butler brothers, the 2 new construction and few of the 30-100 unit renovations like STLCC building, the board of elections, Moto mart etc) New restaurants are opening and you’ll see even more next spring. Biggest issue downtown has is that it’s too spread out, I’ll walk all 4 corners in an hour but most people won’t walk from BPV to let’s say Whisky on Washington or the Landing to Union Station. You can fix some of that with pedestrian improvements, better way finding and a downtown trolley to run again on more frequent bases and some more awareness about it

dbInSouthCity wrote:But it doesn’t, it just needs pre covid normalcy. 2019 downtown was doing really well and It’s still adding new hotels (3 on the way), new residential units (750-1000 coming online in next 2 years between Butler brothers, the 2 new construction and few of the 30-100 unit renovations like STLCC building, the board of elections, Moto mart etc) New restaurants are opening and you’ll see even more next spring. Biggest issue downtown has is that it’s too spread out, I’ll walk all 4 corners in an hour but most people won’t walk from BPV to let’s say Whisky on Washington or the Landing to Union Station. You can fix some of that with pedestrian improvements, better way finding and a downtown trolley to run again on more frequent bases and some more awareness about it

I agree on the Trolley! DT STL is very spread out. Making it more walkable will help as well. I have a few friends doing a study as we speak to open new restaurants DT.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

shadrach wrote: ↑

Oct 13, 2021

I’ve worked at 555 Washington, above Lucas Park Grille and in the Witte Hardware Building in the  Landing, All three could be considered ‘downtown.’ Spread out is a problem. Everything is a hike.

And my gripe is downtown doesn’t have, for example, a CVS. But it really needs two. A place to buy a ream of paper when your printer tray is empty? My shoelace broke. Allegories—I need eye drops. My charging cord crapped out! These are all things I experienced downtown and really had no convenient way of solving them unless I drove to Target on Hampton. All those new restaurants are nice but more if the same and depending, worthless. That’s what I’m saying, downtown is difficult.

Is it a lack of a 24/7 pharmacy downtown or why does the pharmacy in culinaria never get mentioned as one?

I’d hope DGX fills some of this voids, like chargers.

The shoe repair guy in the 308 Broadway building doesn’t sell laces?

FedEx/kinkos at Olive and 7th sells reams of paper. (Maybe CAM Print too)

CVS pharmacy.

We can debate all we want here, but ultimately the market is the best barometer on how people view living downtown.  Are there new residential developments happening? Sure. But not near as many or at a pace as other places in the region.  

People who live downtown currently (generalizing quite a bit here) probably have a more favorable image of downtown than those who don't.  If we want to really ramp up getting new residents to move downtown, some things are going to have to change (crime, closer access to places like a 24/7 CVS and/or target, homelessness, etc).  

I live downtown and we do need a small Target or similar, a second pharmacy, and policing the homeless. Crime the past few weeks I’ll say its normal for a city. But with all the new massive two developments like Butler Brothers, 1801 Washington, STL Community College by BPV, and the other new building near the Stadium its going to bring a lot more people! Hopefully the GeoSpace scene brings a lot more developments.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Laife Fulk wrote: ↑

Oct 14, 2021

We can debate all we want here, but ultimately the market is the best barometer on how people view living downtown.  Are there new residential developments happening? Sure. But not near as many or at a pace as other places in the region.  

People who live downtown currently (generalizing quite a bit here) probably have a more favorable image of downtown than those who don't.  If we want to really ramp up getting new residents to move downtown, some things are going to have to change (crime, closer access to places like a 24/7 CVS and/or target, homelessness, etc).  

Not sure “new” construction is a barometer where developers have decided that using existing stock via conversion is the best play. Good news there is that we are running low on those types of buildings.

New residential would include new construction and conversions.

My whole point is that while, yes, downtown has seen positive growth in residents, the rate of growth could really increase if some of the issues were addressed. Just telling people that they’re wrong and that downtown is ok as isn’t going to work.

Building permit value for downtown + west

2010-2015: $764,000,000
2016-2021: $1,315,000,000 + whatever gets in the last 2 months


I outline above the things that would be helpful to make downtown better.  Growing residential population by 40% from 2010  in a city that’s losing residents is pretty damn good

^  And that 40% growth Downtown/Downtown West 2010-2020 was the highest in the city except for Cheltenham (which doubled its population with the Highlands developments) and lightly populated Kosciusko.  And the combined gain was 2,900 people.... more than the Central West End and Forest Park Southeast combined.  Could it have added more? Probably; but if it had, almost certainly growth elsewhere would have been less.

Downtown has its struggles but its success feels inevitable. Downtown gets more desirable with each residential unit that opens, and those aren't likely to go away as easily as retail or office leases.

Eventually we will hit that critical mass of residents where we will suddenly see a wave of new construction and residential conversion that just gets bigger and bigger. Feel like we are just in the beginning of the exponential curve. Once the market fully established itself watch out. Downtown amenities like CVS and Target will follow eventually.

GoHarvOrGoHome wrote: ↑

Oct 14, 2021

Downtown has its struggles but its success feels inevitable.

I thought this when I moved there in 2008.  Then left in 2015 when I felt like things had been at a standstill for a few years, maybe even black-sliding, didn't see improvements, government dysfunction seemed more apparent to me than ever and felt the game was rigged as long as the city/county divide existed.  Not to mention moving closer to my place of employment at the time was an attractive option.

I feel there was more vibrancy and safer streets when I first moved down in 2008 than when I left in 2015.  I feel generally there's more vibrancy and safer streets in 2015 than there are now.  These things are very hard to quantify of course, so take that for what's it's worth: one person's opinion.  But, I think a lot of people would agree with my opinion.

What's interesting is the gain in residents despite this.  So, who knows.  Possibly the feeling of "inevitable success" I had in 2008 wasn't wrong after all, but instead of thinking in terms of 5-10 years at the time I should've been thinking in terms of 2-4 decades?  I don't know.  Time will tell.

I do hope the best for downtown and would strongly consider buying there if I feel things are heading in a more positive direction.

This is actually the perfect time to buy and get head of it in downtown, as ive said before in this thread downtown in 2019 was doing incredibly well....covid knock it off course but no major project got cancelled (maybe 1 hotel) and everything announced is now back on track today 

I come back to St. Louis every couple years now and the city in general has made a lot of progress. When I left in 2010 it was a totally different place. Only complaint I have about downtown and St. Louis in general is the unbelievably embarrassing streetscapes. I think that would do a lot for the image of the city in general. With that said, I think downtown focusing on residential development is the best way forward. In peripheral areas of downtown I think St. Louis would benefit from having small scale infill development on the empty lots (particularly rowhomes).

OnTheEdge wrote: ↑

Oct 14, 2021

GoHarvOrGoHome wrote: ↑

Oct 14, 2021

Downtown has its struggles but its success feels inevitable.

I thought this when I moved there in 2008.  Then left in 2015 when I felt like things had been at a standstill for a few years, maybe even black-sliding, didn't see improvements, government dysfunction seemed more apparent to me than ever and felt the game was rigged as long as the city/county divide existed.  Not to mention moving closer to my place of employment at the time was an attractive option.

I feel there was more vibrancy and safer streets when I first moved down in 2008 than when I left in 2015.  I feel generally there's more vibrancy and safer streets in 2015 than there are now.  These things are very hard to quantify of course, so take that for what's it's worth: one person's opinion.  But, I think a lot of people would agree with my opinion.

What's interesting is the gain in residents despite this.  So, who knows.  Possibly the feeling of "inevitable success" I had in 2008 wasn't wrong after all, but instead of thinking in terms of 5-10 years at the time I should've been thinking in terms of 2-4 decades?  I don't know.  Time will tell.

I do hope the best for downtown and would strongly consider buying there if I feel things are heading in a more positive direction.

Great analysis. I'm in the "a lot of people would agree with my opinion" camp.
 
Downtown as a whole definitely seems "standstill" or "back-sliding" since 2008/9. It's also worth distinguishing between its different pockets. The CBD Core (area around OPOP bounded by 44, Chestnut, Tucker and Wash Ave) and Laclede's Landing have stagnated and/or back-slid, South of Market is showing some promising green shoots (with BPV as the driver), and Downtown West has some promising projects that could really bring it along (with Union Station and MLS Stadium as drivers). Unfortunately, the most visible, central, intact and overall defining part of Downtown is facing the biggest challenges.

dbInSouthCity wrote: ↑

Oct 14, 2021

This is actually the perfect time to buy and get head of it in downtown

Buy low sell high is great when it works out.  Not so great when it doesn't.  The future is always uncertain and time will tell.

goat314 wrote:Only complaint I have about downtown and St. Louis in general is the unbelievably embarrassing streetscapes. 

Yes, the ubiquitous jersey barriers.  This was definitely something that I can't fathom would've ever happened in the 2008 version of downtown St. Louis I knew.  See, this points to other issues that didn't exist to the same extent in 2008: No one was even suggesting doing things like setting up jersey barriers in downtown in 2008.  Why?  Because the things that have gone on to cause some people to argue for jersey barriers weren't going on to the same extent in 2008 than they have been in more recent years.

wabash wrote: It's also worth distinguishing between its different pockets. The CBD Core (area around OPOP bounded by 44, Chestnut, Tucker and Wash Ave) and Laclede's Landing have stagnated and/or back-slid, South of Market is showing some promising green shoots (with BPV as the driver),

Good point, and this might be why I have a less positive view on the last five or six years than others.  I was still living there when BPV 1.0 opened.  It's just not my thing.  I'm not a huge sports fan, and I just never really felt the vibe.  I'd be more into breakfast at Rooster, drinks on Wash Ave or various other pockets of downtown, love the city museum, etc.

Don't get me wrong tho, I think One Cardinal Way looks great and it's great to see new development downtown.  Plus, I think BPV brings people downtown who normally wouldn't of come downtown, not just to have fun, but as residents, as I believe it's very likely many who rent at BPV wouldn't have considered renting elsewhere downtown.

But, I think many would agree BPV has likely taken activity away from Wash Ave and some other places that I was into downtown.  So, it was more of just a negative for me since I didn't get much enjoyment from BPV.

wabash wrote:Downtown West has some promising projects that could really bring it along (with Union Station and MLS Stadium as drivers).

Yes, totally agree.  This is an important positive too.  Though I lived in Downtown proper my entire time I was very familiar with Downtown West.  This is a real game changer.