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PostApr 10, 2021#2876

There’s a design being passed around, I saw it late last year, of bump outs with decorative street gates so blocks can be closed off much more fluidly.

Definitely not intended for more than a weekend or evening at a time.

Something like this.




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PostApr 10, 2021#2877

Navigating downtown right now is an absolute mess with the current barrier situation. They need to go ASAP. Downtown has been packed with visitors. That won't continue to be the case if we don't remove the barriers. If speeding/whatever was occurring last summer is a problem, we need more police patrolling and actually pulling people over. The street situation can't remain the way it is at current, it is untenable even in the extremely short run.

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PostApr 10, 2021#2878

It’s a pet peeve of mine when I see people confusing traffic calming with traffic elimination. One is the right thing to do and the other is a shortsighted solution that throws the baby out with the bath water.

Design for slower speeds ( lane reductions and shifts , intersection bump-outs, maybe even temporary medians on wide boulevards)

Gates to me are an excuse to create more exclusion downtown.

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PostApr 10, 2021#2879

addxb2 wrote:
Apr 10, 2021
There’s a design being passed around, I saw it late last year, of bump outs with decorative street gates so blocks can be closed off much more fluidly.

Definitely not intended for more than a weekend or evening at a time.

Something like this.




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What other cities have these in their downtowns to calm traffic?

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PostApr 10, 2021#2880

I do want traffic calming to remain downtown. Is there real traffic congestion? I still haven't seen any despite walking across it daily.

The no-barrier setup leads to intermittent cars going 40 mph. That (along with really long lights to wait to cross Broadway, 4th, Tucker, etc.) tell pedestrians they don't matter.

Barrier removal doesn't even take into account that any solution would be fixing the problem for a tiny sliver of the week while creating a problem for the vast majority of hours per week with zero congestion.

The removal of outer-lane barriers on the Eads makes that a far more hostile bridge for cycling, and for no apparent auto benefit.

The barrier pictured above is obviously not robust enough given our car-caused carnage.

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PostApr 11, 2021#2881

newstl2020 wrote:
Apr 10, 2021
Navigating downtown right now is an absolute mess with the current barrier situation. They need to go ASAP. Downtown has been packed with visitors. That won't continue to be the case if we don't remove the barriers. If speeding/whatever was occurring last summer is a problem, we need more police patrolling and actually pulling people over. The street situation can't remain the way it is at current, it is untenable even in the extremely short run.
Why? I went downtown yesterday. Seemed calm, quiet, and lovely. The barriers are well marked now, so you see them coming. Traffic flowed fairly smoothly. It was a pleasant Friday afternoon. People were out walking and clearly having a good time. The only problem I had navigating was turning off Washington onto 7th, I think it was, and finding the street temporarily blocked by a crew patching a pothole. So I turned around and went around the convention center the other way. No big deal. Honestly, I've been driving downtown a fair bit the last few days on odd errands and it's been great. And I have to assume that it's better for a pedestrian than maybe any time in recent memory. (I have had to get out of my car and walk some on those errands, and crossing streets where drivers were slower and more predictable and less maniacal was kind of nice.) I'm completely in favor of these road diets becoming permanent. Make them pretty and make them stay. We need more pedestrian infrastructure and more space for outdoor commerce anyway. (And clearly we don't need remotely as much space for cars as we have.)

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PostApr 11, 2021#2882

^ ^^ Agreed!  I am not sure I understand the big rush to remove the barriers.  Are they ugly and potentially give off a bad impression to tourists?  Yes, probably.  And while they do not entirely solve the issue of people driving like maniacs down here, I think that they do slow down traffic (at certain times and in certain places).  Until we have real traffic around to congest things, I am in no great hurry to see them gone.  Congestion and slow traffic makes Downtown far less appealing to the cruisers and racers, meaning less noise and reckless drivers in my experience.

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PostApr 11, 2021#2883

My issue is the placement on Washington Ave, they are literally blocking the curb ramp and the crosswalk

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PostApr 11, 2021#2884

While they have been effective, the concrete barriers to give off a certain war zone vibe that I think downtown should be distancing itself from. I know this is a dead horse but a lot of these problems on Broadway and 4th could be resolved or eased simply by returning them to two way streets.

Not to mention other options:
  • Road diet on wider downtown streets
  • Build out protected bike lane network on wider roads
  • Liberal use of speed bumps
  • Automatic rising bollards on streets like Wash Ave to close them during the weekends (probably the most expensive option)
Also would it hurt to explore a "Hamsterdam" like area where this car culture can concentrate away from neighborhoods and downtown? It might be an interesting policy for the new administration to explore. It's a constant shell game for police departments to break up meets because they are constantly on the move. I know Hall St. used to be pretty popular back in the day, and that would probably be the best candidate in the city. That way the car people can do what they do and terrorize as few residents and smash into as little property as possible. Plus if it's always in one place, police can hopefully keep a watchful (but hopefully distant) eye on things.
Rising-iBollard-at-Sandy-Hills.jpg (955.19KiB)

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PostApr 11, 2021#2885

GoHarvOrGoHome wrote:
Apr 11, 2021
While they have been effective, the concrete barriers to give off a certain war zone vibe that I think downtown should be distancing itself from. 
That's my biggest issue with them. Seems like 1970s/80s Northern Ireland.

I know a lot of you like them and the calming they've brought to downtown after the craziness. But the "war zone" description is right on target.

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PostApr 11, 2021#2886

^THIS. I have taken people from multiple other cities downtown since the barriers have been installed and the universal reaction is that they immediately think downtown is a disaster.

Additionally, who in their right mind wants to return to their downtown office when many of the main streets used to actually get there are haphazardly chopped down to a single lane that zig zags between intersections. Great for stopping cruisers, etc. Fantastic. I get that and it is a good thing. Making it a nightmare for anyone who works downtown to get to their office is the polar opposite of what we need to be doing right now.

"Quiet and calm" isn't what we should be shooting for as a description for DOWNTOWN, in my personal opinion. We need to be trying to get downtown to what it was immediately prior to COVID asap. We had some genuine momentum and things were feeling very good. The traffic scenario right now is the biggest impediment to moving back in this direction.

I know a large chunk of this board hates anything to do with cars and traffic. I know. But unless you want to alienate 98% of the metro population/rest of America from downtown StL, it has to be done and it has to be done yesterday.

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PostApr 11, 2021#2887

dbInSouthCity wrote:
Apr 11, 2021
My issue is the placement on Washington Ave, they are literally blocking the curb ramp and the crosswalk
The ones on Washington, I'm not even sure what the goal is, since they don't even block a lane of traffic at most intersections east of Tucker.

Is E/B Washington intended to be closed? I think the E/B lanes were fully blocked east of Tucker at some point, but everybody just drove around them and the city gave up and left half-assed barriers there.

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PostApr 11, 2021#2888

Some cities are designating specific areas for legal street "racing" and burnouts. 

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-56154795

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PostApr 11, 2021#2889

Plans need to be put in place for overall traffic and multimodal implementation that has been teased for 15 years now.  Then the barriers can go.

Don't people get paid to do this? Why aren't they just getting it done? No money in the coffers?

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PostApr 11, 2021#2890

^I mean that's fine, but they need to go now.

I work downtown. I can be in my office now. I hate working from home and I want to be back in my office. I buy lunch somewhere everyday during the work week and do happy hours/dinner somewhere after a few days a week. I am obviously a city booster. I am working from home until the barriers go. It's literally that big of a pain in the ass getting in and out.

(I don't mean that as an "oh i spend so much money the economy could never survive without me." I know it's not that much. But it adds up and everyday people avoid downtown the more difficult the climb back becomes.)

Do with that what you will.

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PostApr 11, 2021#2891

bwcrow1s wrote:
Apr 11, 2021
Plans need to be put in place for overall traffic and multimodal implementation that has been teased for 15 years now.  Then the barriers can go.

Don't people get paid to do this? Why aren't they just getting it done? No money in the coffers?
Plan was developed and approved in late 2018
https://www.stlouis-mo.gov/government/d ... -study.cfm

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PostApr 12, 2021#2892

dbInSouthCity wrote:
Apr 11, 2021
bwcrow1s wrote:
Apr 11, 2021
Plans need to be put in place for overall traffic and multimodal implementation that has been teased for 15 years now.  Then the barriers can go.

Don't people get paid to do this? Why aren't they just getting it done? No money in the coffers?
Plan was developed and approved in late 2018
https://www.stlouis-mo.gov/government/d ... -study.cfm
I wonder how much it would cost to get this whole plan funded. Maybe a couple hundred million? Downtown definitely needs this and I would love to see funding applications together for this infrastructure bill coming. 

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PostApr 12, 2021#2893

^I'm altogether great with replacing them with a more attractive option that achieves the same goal. Road diets? Fantastic. Two way traffic? Absolutely. Bumpouts, planters, protected bike lanes, expanded sidewalks . . . yes please. But I think it would be unwise to remove the barriers until you start the replacement project. Stick mittens on 'em and paint 'em pretty colors. Move them so they don't block the crosswalks and ADA cuts. But for crying out loud, do we really want to go back to the part where motorcycle gangs and drag racers were terrorizing everyone who tried to cross Broadway? I get that it's a bit unsightly. I don't get the complaints about automotive access. It's not a problem. You can drive your car downtown as easily now as ever. You can park it. And after that you can WALK! Across the street, even. It's kinda nice. :)

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PostApr 12, 2021#2894

I just hope the next administration pays attention to some of these issues downtown. Lyda completely neglected downtown streets to the point of them being a regional embarrassment. Then during her last year she throws us a bone of at least repaving the majority of the streets. Unfortunately outside of some half assed unprotected bike lanes, it was a total missed opportunity to retool the grid, with the added benefit of smoother new roads for cruisers.

It's just a shame to see these concrete barriers placed haphazardly <1 year old streets. If only we tried to solve these problems back then.

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PostApr 12, 2021#2895

dbInSouthCity wrote:
Apr 11, 2021
bwcrow1s wrote:
Apr 11, 2021
Plans need to be put in place for overall traffic and multimodal implementation that has been teased for 15 years now.  Then the barriers can go.

Don't people get paid to do this? Why aren't they just getting it done? No money in the coffers?
Plan was developed and approved in late 2018
https://www.stlouis-mo.gov/government/d ... -study.cfm
So, when does anything get done? Has the ball begun to roll on funding?

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PostApr 12, 2021#2896

Many auto-centric problems in Downtown predate COVID-19. You just may not be aware of them unless you have lived Downtown and have been engaged since 1999 or earlier.

There have been plans & studies going back over a decade showing Downtown lacks bike/pedestrian connectivity that would also work to slow cars. Bike/ped infrastructure & connectivity would reduce traffic violations w/o the help of more police manpower. But, police manpower and enforcement are still necessary - and we do not get enough of that in Downtown. The new Captain is doing the best job I’ve seen in 20 years, but he is climbing a Mount Everest of problems, and he’s helpless to change infrastructure.

The City, Downtown CID and any other group has failed to act on these aforementioned infrastructure studies. Before the Great Recession, Pyramid Co. even floated a plan funded by a MODESA (aka “super TIF” where state sales taxes are also used) to fund needed infrastructure improvements. Recently, it’s been known that federal 80:20 match funding for these improvements have largely been focused in the Jefferson corridor for NGA, leaving Downtown w/ a lack of funding to implement bike/ped connectivity (and road diets), new Downtown infrastructure, etc.

There have been one-off projects, with little proper planning, like LightMySTL, which gave us somewhat garish Biondi lights that are really still auto-centric as they use the old cobra head lamp posts way up high. The Tucker cycle track is coming. But there has been zero well-funded effort to both plan (or implement an existing plan) and build infrastructure that would cater to bike/ped infrastructure and a less auto-centric Downtown environment.

There are various problems related to an auto-centric, White Flight-designed Downtown that we’re dealing with. Here are just a few examples:
*Downtown has 4 aldermen;
*City gov, specifically the aldermen, fail to recognize Downtown produces $90M/yr in tax revenue but only gets $30M back - and, that revenue has not grown at an inflationary rate, which should alarm everyone. Had it, it would not be $90M, it would be over $170M per year. The Golden Goose is dying as we have seen w/ office rents, vacancies ... and Downtown’s inability to compete w/ peer cities in other economic verticals;
*Downtown has zero form-based code. We actually prioritize the development of parking lots because of this, and because our taxation setup benefits a surface parking lot operation over a multi-fam development. Our “progressive” aldermen also prioritize surface parking lot development over multi-fam by their rhetoric that new construction multi-fam tax abatement & TIF are somehow detrimental to public schools when they are largely studio & 1-bed infill projects that build density and eventually dramatically increase the tax base versus the surface lot that was there. The “wealthy developer” argument simply is ignorant—banks do not lend to people that have nothing to lose;
*some roadways are literally wider than Highway 40 in some places;
*many one-way streets—some very wide. Both of these characteristics increase vehicle speed;
*lack of bump-outs, parklets, truly protected bike lanes and other road-diet measures, which also increase pedestrian connectivity;
*when you exit 44 by the Dome heading south, it’s quite literally a raceway. This has resulted in drag racing south on Broadway and multiple fatalities at Broadway & Washington AVE. The Stifel bull & bear were nearly smashed recently, but their bollards did their job. The City’s response to this race track problem was to move an expensive piece of traffic/power equipment away from the intersection because it kept being hit & destroyed by drag racers;
*Market Street, specifically near Kiener, has been the site of burnouts, donuts etc. Vehicles even entered the new plaza and did donuts on the pavers and in the landscaping;
*4th ST, with its precarious one-way and access to auto-centric meet-up-spots (White Castle, unattended or poorly built-out parking facilities, gas station, etc.) was the scene of a drag meet where a 100+ people met, stopped in the middle of 4th ST, and individually burned north down 4th ST, into Downtown, filming the event and posting on social for all to see;
*Washington AVE: Washington AVE has become a major thoroughfare on the cruising network, and sometimes these cruisers drag race or speed - see: death of female thrown from pick-up truck within last year. Washington AVE has become a popular cruising/drag street because it’s a cool street w/ great buildings and many, many venues. Young men pumped up on testosterone cruise the street gawking at women entering bars, walking on sidewalks, sitting on patios etc. So much so that many women no longer patronize Washington AVE because they receive unwanted cat-calls, can’t park at night near their destination due to a log-jammed street full of cruisers, etc. Washington AVE’s turn toward a late night economy has hurt its daytime vitality (many storefronts serving as bars sit dark during the day) and drawn in undesirable auto-oriented activities at night. Some of this could be fixed w/ Excise enforcement, but for two Excise Commissioners now, including the current one, there is no liquor license enforcement and clubs like Reign reign supreme, keeping residents up and drawing in many, many vehicles in a concentrated area and time frame w/ their promoters/promotions announcing huge party nights;
*buildings have been torn down for parking lots, for decades, which continues today. St. Louis CITY SC recently tore buildings down for parking on Olive. Starwood Group (Square’s landlord) just tore buildings down for parking on MLK. Terry McDonald tore a building down on 4th ST for parking. Etc. Parking facilities w/ zero retail or other use do not create a walkable environment and add to auto-oriented problems. Form-based code would prevent this;
*many poorly built parking facilities are being used for burnouts, donuts & partying. Sometimes this results in not only revving engines, smoking rubber & squealing tires, but also gun shots. See: chaos that ensued in the parking lots around One Cardinal Way, as filmed by residents in OCW and Pointe 400. It was partially due to these films that the City finally acted and dropped the Jersey barriers. NOTE: at one point in the last year SLMPD reported that Ballpark Village had been hit 17 times by gunfire. SLMPD also stated Lumiere Place’s giant video screen is regularly used for target practice by persons firing from vehicles;
*parking facilities do not meet a high standard. All parking facilities should be fully gated, well-lit (so many lumens per SQ FT), and surveilled w/ at least a private camera network, if not a SLMPD RTCC camera. Fully gating lots including barrier arms force people to pay and eliminates vehicle meet-ups and partying on lots;
*Downtown is not its own police district. Downtown is in the 4th District which stretches as far north as where the Mississippi River & Grand connect. This results in Downtown becoming completely uncovered when a major incident occurs outside of Downtown. Downtown should be its own police district with its own dedicated police assets;
*law enforcement does not enforce the law, and lacks support from politicians to do so. Where are the DUI checks in Downtown? Where is the SLMPD Traffic Division? Why are criminals able to ride MetroLink in to car-jack Downtowners and use the bridges as an escape route? Why is it now okay to buy a Dodge Charger w/ an insanely loud engine & muffler and race around Downtown? Why can you drive a cruiser Honda or other brand motorcycle throughout Downtown w/ your radio blaring?; ...


Washington AVE between Tucker & 14th ST has so many problems, all pre-dating COVID-19, that it is completely shuttered every weekend. And that has helped, but it’s obviously not ideal.

Recently, a consultant came up with a temporary plan that would remove the “ugly” Jersey barriers and replace them w/ “prettier” planters w/ swing-arm-gates. This temporary plan was intended to get Downtown through to a permanent, funded infrastructure plan (when will that ever occur??). The consultant’s temporary plan’s cost is a mere $90,000. Various organizations and individuals, including the City and Downtown CID, turned down funding the $90,000. The Downtown CID board actually approved a “pilot” version of the plan: one pair of planters/gates at one intersection. Because the plan is a system of planters/gates, funding just one pair is asinine. Note that the Downtown CID has an annual budget of about $3.5M.

Mayor Jones will receive $500M soon. Will she prioritize Downtown infrastructure? I’ve seen her, largely in pre-election debates, discuss other agendas, but nothing about the continued revitalization of Downtown. Her transition staff does not include one Downtown business person.

In fact, as alluded to earlier, the “progressive agenda” seems to target Downtown & Central Corridor development as bad in many cases. This is something that I will never, ever understand when considering specifically 1-bed & studio new construction that deletes surface parking, typically creates a better pedestrian interface, brings density, and has nothing to do w/ school children.

I’m sure I’ve forgotten some stuff.

Until at least a $90,000 plan is funded, the Jersey barriers should remain.

Until the Board of Aldermen & Downtown CID prioritize Downtown, we won’t get permanent infrastructure and bike/ped connectivity and a less auto-centric environment (two-way streets; parklets; bump outs; road diets; etc.).


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PostApr 12, 2021#2897

bwcrow1s wrote:
Apr 12, 2021
dbInSouthCity wrote:
Apr 11, 2021
bwcrow1s wrote:
Apr 11, 2021
Plans need to be put in place for overall traffic and multimodal implementation that has been teased for 15 years now.  Then the barriers can go.

Don't people get paid to do this? Why aren't they just getting it done? No money in the coffers?
Plan was developed and approved in late 2018
https://www.stlouis-mo.gov/government/d ... -study.cfm
So, when does anything get done? Has the ball begun to roll on funding?
yeah,  recently $1,100,000 was granted from East West Gateway for Tucker improvements including a cycle track 
The signals are being reprogrammed to add leading pedestrian interval (if you've noticed those start the Ped walk single a few seconds before the light turns green which allows a pedestrian to get into the gross walk and be seen by a driver turning left or right) 
and a $4m or so project on 7th street from Wash Ave to Busch was recently approved for funding (construction this fall, i think) 
https://www.stlouis-mo.gov/government/d ... Size-1.pdf

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PostApr 12, 2021#2898

symphonicpoet wrote:
Apr 12, 2021
I don't get the complaints about automotive access. It's not a problem. You can drive your car downtown as easily now as ever. 
Respectfully 🙂, yes it is, and no, you can't.

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PostApr 12, 2021#2899

newstl2020 wrote:
Apr 12, 2021
symphonicpoet wrote:
Apr 12, 2021
I don't get the complaints about automotive access. It's not a problem. You can drive your car downtown as easily now as ever. 
Respectfully 🙂, yes it is, and no, you can't.
Where is it that driving is significantly impeded? I don't drive downtown much, since I live downtown. But I've never seen evidence of any significant driving impediments other than the numerous long stoplights, but that's not new.

Washington Avenue is open (except when the Tucker to 14th stretch is sometimes closed). Broadway/Fourth just require a change of lanes and maybe a very, very slight delay.

It's built for many times the number of cars it has. I can't see how a few barriers is really that bad for drivers.

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PostApr 12, 2021#2900

^ I kind of have to agree.  I totally agree with the complaints about aesthetics...but driving downtown is much more pleasant now.  Might be more a function of less traffic than the barricades, however.

I was in a bad car accident back in September and after that stopped driving and going downtown because of the recklessness, racing and other bullsh*t.  I've been going much more frequently the last couple months and I personally think it feels much safer now, even if the barricades look like sh*t.  For what it's worth, I was downtown all day Saturday with folks from LA and Florida and not one person mentioned them.  Granted I rode down by train...they drove.

Also this past weekend did see some street closures for the marathon and the dome vaccine event...so those caused a few little issues around the bridge landings by the dome for me on Sunday...but outside of that I've experienced few issues at all moving around downtown by car the last couple months.

Not sure if it was in this thread or not, but I REALLY like the idea of the city or wider region just finding a place for people to take their cars and fu*k around.  If people want to do it...give them a place to do it so they're not terrorizing the rest of us.

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