^ I’d honestly say Kirkwood is right on the line. I’ve always thought Chesterfield and Ballwin were second ring making the older cities like Kirkwood and Webster Groves first, or inner, ring. I feel like the cities that managed to maintain their older downtowns like Kirkwood has are more similar to other inner ring burbs than the outer cities.
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I grew up in Kirkwood, literally adjacent to Union Pacific, and I completely agree. It was quite often I wouldn't be able to sleep until a train came and I would be asleep by the time it passed.^ i honestly don't mind train sounds (unless they're right outside my window). actually find it somewhat soothing. way better than the sound of cars and trucks accelerating, which is like taking screwdrivers to every face orifice simultaneously.
Also Kirkwood is firmly an inner ring suburb IMO just because of its age and urban form. I don't think it's just a geography thing as there are towns closer to the city than Kirkwood that I wouldn't consider inner ring.
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^It's an old commuter suburb. It's certainly a first generation suburb, but I'd say it's still a little too far out to be "inner ring." One demonstration of this is that it's really only in the last thirty years or so that it's been completely built out and surrounded on all sides by other suburbs. I'd call the "inner ring" places sharing a border with the city and generally surrounded by other suburbs beginning in the fifties and completely by probably 1970 or so at the latest. Mind you, I'm off topic here, so I'll leave it at that. It's probably mostly a matter of definition in the end.
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I think the problem is that we don't have any duplexes or triplexes or corner cafes, but a developer with money can (almost) put a six story skyscraper downtown two blocks away from single family homes. It seems like the current bias is toward maintaining restrictive zoning unless you're a bigshot who can lobby for exceptions for big money projects. Kirkwood needs more balanced development and more affordable housing.chriss752 wrote: ↑Jan 01, 2021NIMBYism still seems to run high. When Kirkwood Flats (now the James) was proposed, people threw a fit and had yard signs made opposing the project. Some people still have those signs. The Hutton, Barclay and Madison are less opposed since they're smaller in scale.KansasCitian wrote: ↑Dec 31, 2020I've stopped in Kirkwood a few times since moving to St. Louis. It's definitely a nice inner-ring suburb.
Is Kirkwood not quite the NIMBY-Land I thought it would be?
If a 4-6 story building is deemed a "skyscraper", then the entire St. Louis region is Dubai with the world's tallest buildings. That's a typical NIMBY argument and was used on the James (Kirkwood Flats) project. It's perhaps the most pathetic argument.MarkHaversham wrote: ↑Jan 05, 2021
I think the problem is that we don't have any duplexes or triplexes or corner cafes, but a developer with money can (almost) put a six story skyscraper downtown two blocks away from single family homes. It seems like the current bias is toward maintaining restrictive zoning unless you're a bigshot who can lobby for exceptions for big money projects. Kirkwood needs more balanced development and more affordable housing.
Sure, I'd always like to see more corner cafes and what not, but these buildings are built off the Main Street of Kirkwood, so cafes wouldn't make sense. In some cases, building a Duplex or Triplex would result in less density than the Madison, Barclay, and Hutton are adding, especially on the block to the East and West of Kirkwood Road. I believe that buildings of this scale are appropriate between Clay and Taylor on the East-West axis and Bodley-Woodbine on the North-South axis.
In my view, Kirkwood is on the right track and eventually, the neighbors will realize it when their community is stronger and businesses are thriving as a result of hundreds of new residents within a few blocks of the shops and restaurants.
Finally, to close this out, Kirkwood is a popular suburb. It's not going to stop growing unless some crazy unforeseen circumstance happens. If developers are willing to invest, why be a roadblock? If the people of Kirkwood have such great ideas, they can collectively open their pockets, checkbooks and wallets and build what they want themselves.
That would make for some really exceptional ceiling heights.MarkHaversham wrote: ↑Jan 05, 2021a six story skyscraper
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Webster - now they're the real NIMBYs.KansasCitian wrote: ↑Dec 31, 2020I've stopped in Kirkwood a few times since moving to St. Louis. It's definitely a nice inner-ring suburb.
Is Kirkwood not quite the NIMBY-Land I thought it would be?
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I've spoken with several Webster Groves residents that have taken serious pride in their community's desire to keep everything local and small.
If I remember right, one of them essentially said that WG would never sell its soul to the devil like Kirkwood and Crestwood have.
If I remember right, one of them essentially said that WG would never sell its soul to the devil like Kirkwood and Crestwood have.
lol but I bet they still shop in Brentwood where basically nothing is local.KansasCitian wrote: ↑Jan 05, 2021I've spoken with several Webster Groves residents that have taken serious pride in their community's desire to keep everything local and small.
If I remember right, one of them essentially said that WG would never sell its soul to the devil like Kirkwood and Crestwood have.
I really like the look of this building. Doesn't seem too big to out scale what is already in Kirkwood. The buildings around the main square are about this size iirc.
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Just the other day I was at Freddie's Market. Something is keeping that place going and I don't think it's south city kids accidentally happening by every once in a while.flipz wrote:lol but I bet they still shop in Brentwood where basically nothing is local.
Did Crestwood ever have a walkable downtown? Are we talking about the shopping strips, the mall?KansasCitian wrote: ↑Jan 05, 2021I've spoken with several Webster Groves residents that have taken serious pride in their community's desire to keep everything local and small.
If I remember right, one of them essentially said that WG would never sell its soul to the devil like Kirkwood and Crestwood have.
I don't get the resistance. Property values are only going to go up, right? More local dollars for their little local shops and restaurants?
The way I see it, they wanted their own little shopping island in Meacham Park to displace the poor black residents and rake in sales tax dollars, but the rest is pure untouchable gold, I guess, unashamedly. I guess both of the development blunders in CW, KW, are reasonable bars for avoidance. But the heart of Kirkwood is still in tact. The heart of Webster Groves is still in tact. And the cost of entry to these communities is still too high to change demographics IMO. No one should be using a Crestwood as a comparison point. Parochialism showing its face again.
Freddie's is the place to be. Shout out to the Bononi's.symphonicpoet wrote: ↑Jan 06, 2021Just the other day I was at Freddie's Market. Something is keeping that place going and I don't think it's south city kids accidentally happening by every once in a while.flipz wrote:lol but I bet they still shop in Brentwood where basically nothing is local.
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We should have a zoning code that allows natural density growth to meet a variety of needs, not restrictive zoning that relies on deep-pocketed developers to lobby around in order to increase density. Encourage residents to build duplexes to share with their elderly parents, or to affordably house young families wherever they want to live. Allow construction of housing besides single-family housing for wealthy lawyers and architects, and condos for their kids.chriss752 wrote: ↑Jan 05, 2021If a 4-6 story building is deemed a "skyscraper", then the entire St. Louis region is Dubai with the world's tallest buildings. That's a typical NIMBY argument and was used on the James (Kirkwood Flats) project. It's perhaps the most pathetic argument.MarkHaversham wrote: ↑Jan 05, 2021
I think the problem is that we don't have any duplexes or triplexes or corner cafes, but a developer with money can (almost) put a six story skyscraper downtown two blocks away from single family homes. It seems like the current bias is toward maintaining restrictive zoning unless you're a bigshot who can lobby for exceptions for big money projects. Kirkwood needs more balanced development and more affordable housing.
Sure, I'd always like to see more corner cafes and what not, but these buildings are built off the Main Street of Kirkwood, so cafes wouldn't make sense. In some cases, building a Duplex or Triplex would result in less density than the Madison, Barclay, and Hutton are adding, especially on the block to the East and West of Kirkwood Road. I believe that buildings of this scale are appropriate between Clay and Taylor on the East-West axis and Bodley-Woodbine on the North-South axis.
In my view, Kirkwood is on the right track and eventually, the neighbors will realize it when their community is stronger and businesses are thriving as a result of hundreds of new residents within a few blocks of the shops and restaurants.
Finally, to close this out, Kirkwood is a popular suburb. It's not going to stop growing unless some crazy unforeseen circumstance happens. If developers are willing to invest, why be a roadblock? If the people of Kirkwood have such great ideas, they can collectively open their pockets, checkbooks and wallets and build what they want themselves.
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That’s a great looking addition. The Kirkwood housing market is on fire right now.
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Would be nice to see some of that Missing Middle housing in Kirkwood, but I don't have high hopes of that.moorlander wrote: ↑May 03, 2021That’s a great looking addition. The Kirkwood housing market is on fire right now.
I'd love to see more stuff like that filling in the holes in the Central Corridor.
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Work has officially started on The Hutton in Kirkwood across from the Police Station on Madison just off Kirkwood Road. Large trees were removed yesterday and part of Madison Street is being jackhammered to connect new sewer and utilities under the street. I expect the two small buildings on the site will be razed very soon. Full disclosure -- my wife and I live next door in The Barclay condominiums.
https://savoyproperties.com/project/the-hutton-residences/
https://savoyproperties.com/project/the-hutton-residences/
Beautiful!gary kreie wrote: ↑May 03, 2021The Barclay Condominium. Folks have moved into most of the units in the last couple of weeks.
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St Louis Business Journal story. https://www.bizjournals.com/stlouis/new ... ml?ana=maz
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Nearing completion. These are all solid buildings.
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In relation to the other Savoy developed, Core10 designed, and Kadean built condo buildings. This older thread should be absorbed into this one since it relates to all three: https://www.urbanstl.com/kirkwood-condo ... 11069.html
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In relation to the other Savoy developed, Core10 designed, and Kadean built condo buildings. This older thread should be absorbed into this one since it relates to all three: https://www.urbanstl.com/kirkwood-condo ... 11069.html
