Does anybody else remember the Chicago developer who did Water Tower Place and his plan for a upscale vertical mall in the Ambassador theater building next door to St. Louis Centre? Unfortunately he died before renovation could begin and his sons canceled the project. I believe its cancellation gave the green light to the construction of the Galleria which led to the demise of the Centre. I wonder what the evolution of downtown retail would be today if the man had not passed away. After all he pioneered the vertical mall concept in the U.S. and helped make Michigan Ave a premiere shopping destination.
Arch city is corect, St. Louis Center was as well conected into its urban enviroment as one could hope for considering it was a suburban mall in the middle of downtown.
It will be intersting to see how this plays out. People in this thread keep talking abuot the district as another neigborhood, serving the people who live near by. I was always under the impression that much of the bottle district was to be kitchy and touristy (the theamed resturants, kart racing). Ultimatly it may be both, however I think for the sucess of both parts, the district must figure out how to balance and discover its identity. I don't know about most people, but i don't want to live at Six Flags. It would be great to have people living in the area and a residental component, but there needs to be lines drawn and balances met. (another reason for an active street grid, as it can help deffine the residental and more touristy areas of the project)
It will be intersting to see how this plays out. People in this thread keep talking abuot the district as another neigborhood, serving the people who live near by. I was always under the impression that much of the bottle district was to be kitchy and touristy (the theamed resturants, kart racing). Ultimatly it may be both, however I think for the sucess of both parts, the district must figure out how to balance and discover its identity. I don't know about most people, but i don't want to live at Six Flags. It would be great to have people living in the area and a residental component, but there needs to be lines drawn and balances met. (another reason for an active street grid, as it can help deffine the residental and more touristy areas of the project)
Yep, it's already happening. That's why I agree with irocktheparty2000 . The Bottle District, love it or hate it, is huge for downtown and St. Louis in general. If done as planned, it's going to mean a lot for downtown's building momentum.urbanstlouis wrote:
Don't forget that <A HREF="http://www.urbanstl.com/viewtopic.php?t ... ighborhood Gardens</A> is already under redevelopment with displays planned to be ready by the end of the year and leasing starting next spring!
Let me get this on record. I don't hate it or dismiss it. It is BIG and will be exciting to watch it go up. I wish I could be there to see it.
It was the news of Liebeskind's involvement that caused me to start poking around and find this site in the first place. People are going to notice.
- 10K
Does anybody else remember the Chicago developer who did Water Tower Place and his plan for a upscale vertical mall in the Ambassador theater building next door to St. Louis Centre? Unfortunately he died before renovation could begin and his sons canceled the project. I believe its cancellation gave the green light to the construction of the Galleria which led to the demise of the Centre. I wonder what the evolution of downtown retail would be today if the man had not passed away. After all he pioneered the vertical mall concept in the U.S. and helped make Michigan Ave a premiere shopping destination.
Wow, I don't remember that - that would have been amazing.
Hell, it would be amazing to simply have the Ambassador Building still standing.
The only problem I have with the design, despite how cool it looks, is that it resembles nothing even remotely close to an enterainment district. I liked the original design. Maybe I haven't seen enough of this yet to really like it as an entertainment district, but for the time being it looks like a fancy office park or some type of extravagant memorial.
Just thought of something else...the Bottle District's orignal plans seemed to be geared towards a sports theme with The Rawlings All-American Grill, Grand Prix Speedways, and then with it's location next to the dome. Then you have a laid back type restaurant with Sammy Haggar's Cabo Wabo Cantina. This design we are seeing does not reflect what one would look for in an entertainment district with the makeup of the said businesses.
To me, these renderings look like a fancy office park, an extravagant memorial, or some cultural/artsy center. An opera house, symphony house, art museum, and an aquarium would fit that design much better.
It's an amazing design but I'm afraid that it may be a bad fit, which could ultimately hurt The Bottle District in the long run.
To me, these renderings look like a fancy office park, an extravagant memorial, or some cultural/artsy center. An opera house, symphony house, art museum, and an aquarium would fit that design much better.
It's an amazing design but I'm afraid that it may be a bad fit, which could ultimately hurt The Bottle District in the long run.
Love the design. I just wish I could see the overall rendering of what downtown will look like with all the new construction.
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Yes .. imagine those towers complimenting the arch. Remeber the original sketch? Leibeskind wanted to have an upward swoosh to play off the arch ... thats exactly what it will do. And throw in the dramatic new bridge immediatly to its north and you're talkin' some serous skyline here.
I truly believe this could be the begining a a true downtown renaisance - a period where we actually see new construction filling up all those vacant lots.
I just hope - as others have said - that they manage to work the street grid into the design (with functional streets). It could be done. Personally I think it would be even more dramatic to be able to drive through the thing. Imagine driving into and through a swirling glass super block with retail swooping upward and away like a giant ampitheater and towers looming above you like giant shards of crystal
... It would almost be like drivign through superman's fortress ....
I truly believe this could be the begining a a true downtown renaisance - a period where we actually see new construction filling up all those vacant lots.
I just hope - as others have said - that they manage to work the street grid into the design (with functional streets). It could be done. Personally I think it would be even more dramatic to be able to drive through the thing. Imagine driving into and through a swirling glass super block with retail swooping upward and away like a giant ampitheater and towers looming above you like giant shards of crystal
... It would almost be like drivign through superman's fortress ....
Has anyone even seen a ground level site plan for this thing? Frankly, I'm having a hard time making anything out from those renderings. How does everything fit together? Where are the stores? Where's the go-cart track? How do you enter the residential buildings? We need to get lots more information.
My first reaction is that its a bit intimidating. Definitely fortress like. The way everything is leaning out, I can't help thinking of barbed wire at the top of a fence. If the streets don't run through it, then its just not very welcoming. I definitely get a (Detroit) Renaisance Center feeling, and that's not a good thing.
Oh, sure, the tourists and football fans will love the place, but I don't know if that's enough to make such a large project viable in the long term. And I just can't see why people would actually chose to live there as opposed to, say Ballpark Village or Choutau Lake. Well, maybe the hard-core gamblers or some of the Rams players.
I'm holding out my final verdict until I see some more drawings, and hopefully a scale model. But I can't shake this fealing of bad Fung-Shai.
My first reaction is that its a bit intimidating. Definitely fortress like. The way everything is leaning out, I can't help thinking of barbed wire at the top of a fence. If the streets don't run through it, then its just not very welcoming. I definitely get a (Detroit) Renaisance Center feeling, and that's not a good thing.
Oh, sure, the tourists and football fans will love the place, but I don't know if that's enough to make such a large project viable in the long term. And I just can't see why people would actually chose to live there as opposed to, say Ballpark Village or Choutau Lake. Well, maybe the hard-core gamblers or some of the Rams players.
I'm holding out my final verdict until I see some more drawings, and hopefully a scale model. But I can't shake this fealing of bad Fung-Shai.
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I think the renderings look great! My first thought was that it reminded me of the Guggenheim Museum in Bilbao Spain. IMO it?s a bold and fresh design which will be a nice addition to the skyline. While it may look like a fortress to some, I think the design itself will still draw people towards it to explore and walk around it. It also has an amphitheater type feel to it which could be ideal for outdoor events and festivals. In combination with the ballpark village and the new casino, I?m hopeful that it will encourage more pedestrian traffic around the downtown area. Right now, it seems like many downtown visitors have a one or two block walking limit away from their cars.
It is possible to have a project which is not reliant upon and dominated by streets and parking. I just hope it?s possible to have it in St. Louis. Think outside the grid!
It is possible to have a project which is not reliant upon and dominated by streets and parking. I just hope it?s possible to have it in St. Louis. Think outside the grid!
MarkinLondon -- I see you are now MarkinStLouis - Congrats and I am jealous.
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See now these plans are very different. I'm still really excited, but I don't thnk they're as inspirational as the last set .... They taken out the ampitheater like stepping, and the towers look fairly ordinary now. Its still phenomenal don't get me wrong ... but I don't like them as much.
Good find Arch City! These renderings are great. This is going to have a major impact on how people see St. Louis for the first time as they are traveling into the city from the airport on 70. Compounded by the new buildings going up in Laclede's Landing. Unbelievable........let's get started on this now!
How will people access it from the Metrolink station? It will be close enough, but can they get through the wall of the dome/CCenter? If not, they should start planning on some kind of pedestrian access.
How will people access it from the Metrolink station? It will be close enough, but can they get through the wall of the dome/CCenter? If not, they should start planning on some kind of pedestrian access.
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markofucity wrote:
... It would almost be like drivign through superman's fortress ....
LOL, it does resemble the Fortress of Solitude
The ground level retail shows a the Pin Up Bowl and Interactiv Entertainment as well as Rawlings, Cabo Wabo, and the Go Kart thingee(part of phase 2)
Now is the time to start planning the downtown MetroLink loop and/or some sort of tram to run down Broadway connecting to the Stadium MetroLink Stop.
This will probably end up being a tourist trap attraction like Navy Pier in Chicago, so it would be wise to assume a lot of potential customers will not be driving from downtown hotels or sporting facilities. They'll need another mean of transport.
These towers are a bit better designed and might look a bit nicer. However beyond that I have even more serious problems with this project.
First, look at the grade level plans, particurarly those on the ground level. Now look at where the shops are located. Now look at where all the loading docks are located. In particular, look at what borders important streets like Cole, 7th, and Broadway. Much more of the shopping and activity will be inside the courtyard of buildings, with little hapening along the exterior streets. This is BAD NEWS. I understand there must be places for things like loading docks and support areas, but if they are trying to lure people, I worry about this design. So much for interacting with its neighborhood, there is nothing along 7th.
2nd. I think we would all agree most people will be coming at this from the Landing or from the dome, but with the way traffic is designed, Cole is gonna be carrying alot more traffic. Much must be done to take this into account or the Bottle District will be left marroned alone in a sea of high traffic streets. One way to fix this? Change the design to allow for better traffic flow in the cut up streets west of the district and DO NOT close off O'Fallon St. Make a nice large intersection with Broadway. Maybe don't close off Biddle, because traffic is gonna be bad at this site. A Metrolink loop would help alot, something along say Broadway, Cole, 14th.
If I had to take a guess, I say phase 1 gets built, and maybe the 2nd residental tower and the hotel, but the cultural building and tower 3 does not.
First, look at the grade level plans, particurarly those on the ground level. Now look at where the shops are located. Now look at where all the loading docks are located. In particular, look at what borders important streets like Cole, 7th, and Broadway. Much more of the shopping and activity will be inside the courtyard of buildings, with little hapening along the exterior streets. This is BAD NEWS. I understand there must be places for things like loading docks and support areas, but if they are trying to lure people, I worry about this design. So much for interacting with its neighborhood, there is nothing along 7th.
2nd. I think we would all agree most people will be coming at this from the Landing or from the dome, but with the way traffic is designed, Cole is gonna be carrying alot more traffic. Much must be done to take this into account or the Bottle District will be left marroned alone in a sea of high traffic streets. One way to fix this? Change the design to allow for better traffic flow in the cut up streets west of the district and DO NOT close off O'Fallon St. Make a nice large intersection with Broadway. Maybe don't close off Biddle, because traffic is gonna be bad at this site. A Metrolink loop would help alot, something along say Broadway, Cole, 14th.
If I had to take a guess, I say phase 1 gets built, and maybe the 2nd residental tower and the hotel, but the cultural building and tower 3 does not.
^Why not take a guess and say that all phases will be built? Why start this project at a deficit when it hasn't even cracked ground? It seems to be a truly St. Louis way of thinking, unfortunately.
I have been participating on forums such as these for a while and that attitude is most prevalent on the St. Louis boards. I don't get it. Are St. Louisans simply being more realistic? Are they not big dreamers or confident? Do they tend to be natural skeptics? Are others overly optimistic? What's the issue with the low confidence?
Not attacking you or anyone else that holds the same opinion, but I often wonder what is the origin of that thought?
When grand plans are formulated in Houston, Atlanta, or Dallas the next question is usually how can we make it bigger and better - not, "This will not see all phases built."
I have been participating on forums such as these for a while and that attitude is most prevalent on the St. Louis boards. I don't get it. Are St. Louisans simply being more realistic? Are they not big dreamers or confident? Do they tend to be natural skeptics? Are others overly optimistic? What's the issue with the low confidence?
Not attacking you or anyone else that holds the same opinion, but I often wonder what is the origin of that thought?
When grand plans are formulated in Houston, Atlanta, or Dallas the next question is usually how can we make it bigger and better - not, "This will not see all phases built."
I can and do dream all sorts of great things and wish this project nothing but sucess because it would be great to see a development of this magnitude, as it could help the city achive many of its goals at once (more population, better convention draw, more retail).
However, here is why i made that guess. This project may be a rousing sucess and see all phases built, however looking at the design and taking into account the problems I see with the design I just don't feel it will be so sucessful as to see all phases built. I do think the hotel will be built and built much sooner than the plans indicate. But my guess has nothing to do with low confidence and everything to do with the design i see before me.
However, here is why i made that guess. This project may be a rousing sucess and see all phases built, however looking at the design and taking into account the problems I see with the design I just don't feel it will be so sucessful as to see all phases built. I do think the hotel will be built and built much sooner than the plans indicate. But my guess has nothing to do with low confidence and everything to do with the design i see before me.
Arch City, Jmedwick is pragmatic. Not a bad thing and he makes a lot of good points. But, I agree, it is time for St. Louis to think big again. St. Louis has a tradition of thinking big, but we haven't done it for awhile. The current generation needs to rekindle the tradition - in fact, I say the current generation is indeed rekindling the tradition. You can take a look around St. Louis and see that it was built by people that expected it to be a major world city. Examples are the library, city hall, Union Station, etc. They were thinking big when they planned and implemented Gateway Mall. The Arch goes without saying. And look at all the modern building and planning that came with the Arch. Just one or two generations ago, they set out to build the finest suburbs possible. Right or wrong, look how they forged through an ancient city and built freeways everywhere. So I conclude this pep talk by saying, St. Louis step back up to the plate!
- 10K
I have a lot more confidence that Ballpark Village will be a success.
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Neighborhood Gardens historic apartments are immediately west of 7th Street between Biddle and O'Fallon Streets. By the site plan of the linked .pdf in an earlier post, it appears the back of the Grand Prix indoor race track complex (Phase 2) will actually be across 7th from Neighborhood Gardens.
Understandbly, there is not much existing streetscape along Broadway/I-70 to the east with the elevated highway and wide frontage roads or along widened Cole against the back of the dome and convention center. But at the very least, this inward-facing development shouldn't turn its back from 7th as well.
Understandbly, there is not much existing streetscape along Broadway/I-70 to the east with the elevated highway and wide frontage roads or along widened Cole against the back of the dome and convention center. But at the very least, this inward-facing development shouldn't turn its back from 7th as well.