The Armory District

bwcrow1s · PostAug 22, 2017#512017-08-22T13:26+00:00

wabash wrote: ↑
Aug 21, 2017
^that would seem like a net loss, since Arcturis is leasing the same amount of space now in 720 Olive, so assumedly wouldn't have significant hiring plans with the move. And it would be jobs leaving the CBD. Also while the transit accessibility for the armory will be very good, 720 Olive is second to none.

I don't see anyone snapping up the space Arcturis would be leaving (this would be the second major tenant in a few years to pull stakes from that building). And the large, low floor might not be as easy to convert to apartments as the smaller floor plates higher up.

I agree. I think if it was a company shifting from the CWE or something of that effect, it would be fine, as that vacated space would eventually be filled and we would have added jobs closer to the urban core of the city.

Pulling them out of Downtown would be a huge loss though.

MRNHS · PostAug 22, 2017#522017-08-22T15:39+00:00

gopherlou wrote: ↑
May 12, 2017

vpr611 wrote: ↑
May 12, 2017

debaliviere wrote: ↑
May 11, 2017
I've heard who the brewery tenant will be. It's a good one.
My guess would be either 2nd Shift or Narrow Gauge.
2nd shift just opened down the way on Sublette on the Hill, can't imagine they would already expand again? Perennial seems possible. All the other big hitters from 2011 have expanded recently or are planning to (UCBC, 4 hands, Civil life) Not sure about Schlafly? Alpha just announced an expansion, and Charleville too.

My unrealistic hope is to land a brand from outside St. Louis.

Definitely couldn't see it being 2nd Shift. Perennial is a possibility but they did just recently expand their brewhouse two doors down connected in the back of the building so I doubt it's them. Narrow Gauge is owned by the family that shares the restaurant so while it's not unlikely, I do not see them moving. Or if they are looking for a more permanent space, I would think that family would keep it nearby. Also, Six Mile Bridge has been doing well and expanding into more and more restaurants but their brewhouse is on the smaller side so that's a possibility too. But I have not heard of them looking for space. .

I have heard that Modern is looking for a new space so I would bet it's them, but I have no insider knowledge on this.

chaifetz10 · PostAug 22, 2017#532017-08-22T16:22+00:00

Schlafly, with an expanded brewing operation, would be fantastic here. They don't have the space to add more in their current spot (at least I don't see how they could expand too much more outside of a few more tanks).

mjbais1489 · PostAug 22, 2017#542017-08-22T16:57+00:00

chaifetz10 wrote: ↑
Aug 22, 2017
Schlafly, with an expanded brewing operation, would be fantastic here. They don't have the space to add more in their current spot (at least I don't see how they could expand too much more outside of a few more tanks).

The way people who know who the brewery tenant is talk about I cannot imagine it being a local company.

Everyone in the know is hyping it up so much, if it turned out to be a 3rd Schlafly location, a 2nd 4 hands Location, or something similar I would be pretty disappointed. We already have those - I can stop by anytime. And it cant be a start-up because I cant get excited for a place that's just starting out.

I am honestly guessing it will be a 312, New Belgium, Lauganitas type of brewery from out of town. Probably one In-Bev owns. That would be more exciting honestly to me even if its not "true craft" or whatever.

bwcrow1s · PostAug 22, 2017#552017-08-22T20:23+00:00

MRNHS wrote: ↑
Aug 22, 2017

gopherlou wrote: ↑
May 12, 2017

vpr611 wrote: ↑
May 12, 2017

My guess would be either 2nd Shift or Narrow Gauge.
2nd shift just opened down the way on Sublette on the Hill, can't imagine they would already expand again? Perennial seems possible. All the other big hitters from 2011 have expanded recently or are planning to (UCBC, 4 hands, Civil life) Not sure about Schlafly? Alpha just announced an expansion, and Charleville too.

My unrealistic hope is to land a brand from outside St. Louis.
Definitely couldn't see it being 2nd Shift. Perennial is a possibility but they did just recently expand their brewhouse two doors down connected in the back of the building so I doubt it's them. Narrow Gauge is owned by the family that shares the restaurant so while it's not unlikely, I do not see them moving. Or if they are looking for a more permanent space, I would think that family would keep it nearby. Also, Six Mile Bridge has been doing well and expanding into more and more restaurants but their brewhouse is on the smaller side so that's a possibility too. But I have not heard of them looking for space. .

I have heard that Modern is looking for a new space so I would bet it's them, but I have no insider knowledge on this.

Modern would be great. I currently hate their setup, and it's really underwhelming for how good the beer is.

Also, it seems like Rockwell has stalled, and what about Senn? Any update there?

symphonicpoet · PostAug 23, 2017#562017-08-23T04:58+00:00

mjbais1489 wrote: ↑
Aug 22, 2017

chaifetz10 wrote: ↑
Aug 22, 2017
Schlafly, with an expanded brewing operation, would be fantastic here. They don't have the space to add more in their current spot (at least I don't see how they could expand too much more outside of a few more tanks).
The way people who know who the brewery tenant is talk about I cannot imagine it being a local company.

Everyone in the know is hyping it up so much, if it turned out to be a 3rd Schlafly location, a 2nd 4 hands Location, or something similar I would be pretty disappointed. We already have those - I can stop by anytime. And it cant be a start-up because I cant get excited for a place that's just starting out.

I am honestly guessing it will be a 312, New Belgium, Lauganitas type of brewery from out of town. Probably one In-Bev owns. That would be more exciting honestly to me even if its not "true craft" or whatever.

I think 312 and New Belgium would be a bit disappointing. 312 never really wowed me. New Belgium has an important place in the history of craft brewing, but I don't feel they're what they used to be and they're . . . there are so many brewers making approximately that same style family of ale based brews. If I wanted that I'd go Boulevard or Schalffly. Both are, to my taste, better. More interesting. Or Four Hands. Or Civil Life. But what we really need is a good German style brewer that concentrates on doing one or two things very well. Someone elsewhere said they wanted to find a good pre-prohibition pilsner. I could second that. No need for more Inbev. I can't imagine that would sell well here anyway, the way they've done the town lately. Now if Griesedieck or William K moved in that could be exciting. I'm going to die holding my breath waiting for that Baden brewery. And I don't wanna die. Or wait any longer. Come on ye G brews. I could deal with some good fresh draft K lag. Or if one of the existing local operations expanded. Or someone started a new brewery in the German style for which our fair town is best known . . .

Some of this will doubtless depend on taste. Lord knows that a good ale or porter can be a thing of beauty. No disputing that. But come what may, I'd really much rather see more and better local. This is a beer town. In many ways this is THE beer town. We got this one! We can handle this.

bwcrow1s · PostAug 23, 2017#572017-08-23T12:40+00:00

symphonicpoet wrote: ↑
Aug 23, 2017

mjbais1489 wrote: ↑
Aug 22, 2017

chaifetz10 wrote: ↑
Aug 22, 2017
Schlafly, with an expanded brewing operation, would be fantastic here. They don't have the space to add more in their current spot (at least I don't see how they could expand too much more outside of a few more tanks).
The way people who know who the brewery tenant is talk about I cannot imagine it being a local company.

Everyone in the know is hyping it up so much, if it turned out to be a 3rd Schlafly location, a 2nd 4 hands Location, or something similar I would be pretty disappointed. We already have those - I can stop by anytime. And it cant be a start-up because I cant get excited for a place that's just starting out.

I am honestly guessing it will be a 312, New Belgium, Lauganitas type of brewery from out of town. Probably one In-Bev owns. That would be more exciting honestly to me even if its not "true craft" or whatever.
I think 312 and New Belgium would be a bit disappointing. 312 never really wowed me. New Belgium has an important place in the history of craft brewing, but I don't feel they're what they used to be and they're . . . there are so many brewers making approximately that same style family of ale based brews. If I wanted that I'd go Boulevard or Schalffly. Both are, to my taste, better. More interesting. Or Four Hands. Or Civil Life. But what we really need is a good German style brewer that concentrates on doing one or two things very well. Someone elsewhere said they wanted to find a good pre-prohibition pilsner. I could second that. No need for more Inbev. I can't imagine that would sell well here anyway, the way they've done the town lately. Now if Griesedieck or William K moved in that could be exciting. I'm going to die holding my breath waiting for that Baden brewery. And I don't wanna die. Or wait any longer. Come on ye G brews. I could deal with some good fresh draft K lag. Or if one of the existing local operations expanded. Or someone started a new brewery in the German style for which our fair town is best known . . .

Some of this will doubtless depend on taste. Lord knows that a good ale or porter can be a thing of beauty. No disputing that. But come what may, I'd really much rather see more and better local. This is a beer town. In many ways this is THE beer town. We got this one! We can handle this.

Kraftig should save the Benton Park Falstaff brewery and produce out of there. I'm surprised Griesedieck passed on that iconic building. In the end of the day, I think saving that building is important, especially with the number of breweries we have everywhere.

I for one wouldn't really be excited for Boulevard, 312, New Belgium, etc. It would feel like we were just tacked on as part of a chain. Instead of just being another offshoot of corporate success like BPV, we should be championing our own local treasures, especially at such a visible location as this. I think at this point the most local potential comes from the likes of Perennial, Modern or Civil Life. I still question what's up with Senn and Rockwell though as well. But I doubt we see another Schlafly extension here that close to the Tap Room, and similar could be said of UCBC. I think 4 Hands is comfortable in their position by the Ballpark too.

Bart Harley Jarvis · PostAug 23, 2017#582017-08-23T15:22+00:00

symphonicpoet wrote: ↑
Aug 23, 2017

mjbais1489 wrote: ↑
Aug 22, 2017

chaifetz10 wrote: ↑
Aug 22, 2017
Schlafly, with an expanded brewing operation, would be fantastic here. They don't have the space to add more in their current spot (at least I don't see how they could expand too much more outside of a few more tanks).
The way people who know who the brewery tenant is talk about I cannot imagine it being a local company.

Everyone in the know is hyping it up so much, if it turned out to be a 3rd Schlafly location, a 2nd 4 hands Location, or something similar I would be pretty disappointed. We already have those - I can stop by anytime. And it cant be a start-up because I cant get excited for a place that's just starting out.

I am honestly guessing it will be a 312, New Belgium, Lauganitas type of brewery from out of town. Probably one In-Bev owns. That would be more exciting honestly to me even if its not "true craft" or whatever.
I think 312 and New Belgium would be a bit disappointing. 312 never really wowed me. New Belgium has an important place in the history of craft brewing, but I don't feel they're what they used to be and they're . . .

I've found almost all New Belgium beers to taste soapy. I don't know if it's just bad luck on what I order or something in their beers that doesn't jive with me, but I've never found any of their offerings to be great tasting.

symphonicpoet · PostAug 24, 2017#592017-08-24T04:22+00:00

bwcrow1s wrote: ↑
Aug 23, 2017
Kraftig should save the Benton Park Falstaff brewery and produce out of there. I'm surprised Griesedieck passed on that iconic building. In the end of the day, I think saving that building is important, especially with the number of breweries we have everywhere.

I for one wouldn't really be excited for Boulevard, 312, New Belgium, etc. It would feel like we were just tacked on as part of a chain. Instead of just being another offshoot of corporate success like BPV, we should be championing our own local treasures, especially at such a visible location as this. I think at this point the most local potential comes from the likes of Perennial, Modern or Civil Life. I still question what's up with Senn and Rockwell though as well. But I doubt we see another Schlafly extension here that close to the Tap Room, and similar could be said of UCBC. I think 4 Hands is comfortable in their position by the Ballpark too.

I'd love to see Kraftig in one and Griesedieck in the other, but that's a really big ask as both of those projects would be mammoth. Beautiful, but mammoth. Those are not microbrewries. Or even craft breweries, really. I hope someone saves them. I also hope Kraftig and Griesedieck make a successful go of it brewing here. If the two are linked, grate. If not, well, I still hope. If there are any brewers with the experience and connections to tackle something like that it would be the Busch and Griesedieck clans.

St.Louis1764 · PostNov 16, 2017#602017-11-16T21:24+00:00

The Armory wasn't qualified for HTC so they applied for TIF and won so now its also moving forward
That entire area is going to look dramatically different by 2020

ImprovSTL · PostNov 17, 2017#612017-11-17T15:29+00:00

No HTC? That's surprising? Changing it too drastically?

St.Louis1764 · PostNov 17, 2017#622017-11-17T17:18+00:00

The interior/atrium didn't qualify for HTC so they asked the city for TIF to cover the 11.5 million gap and the land clearance for redevelopment authority accepted.
Its in the post dispatch.

aprice · PostNov 17, 2017#632017-11-17T17:20+00:00

ImprovSTL wrote: ↑
Nov 17, 2017
No HTC? That's surprising? Changing it too drastically?

I'm not surprised. NPS has certain provisions about the use of spaces. A corridor has to stay a corridor. A theater has to stay a theater, etc. Offices and classrooms can become apartments but the still have to be "compartments" of sorts within the building. I was working on a historic YMCA once and we were concerned about them letting use change the gym into townhome style apartments.

dylank · PostDec 07, 2017#642017-12-07T19:21+00:00

Has interior construction started on this? This was supposed to start in the Fall.

ImprovSTL · PostDec 14, 2017#652017-12-14T19:56+00:00

There is a "Now Leasing" sign on the Armory so I guess that is a good sign. Pardon the pun.

bwcrow1s · PostDec 14, 2017#662017-12-14T21:22+00:00

They also managed to remove the giant SABOT SUPER on the front. That's a start.

jshank83 · PostFeb 13, 2018#672018-02-13T19:22+00:00

Any clue what is going on with this? The leasing signs are up as people have mentioned but I haven't seen anything going on with it.

STLrainbow · PostMay 14, 2018#682018-05-14T16:18+00:00

I know projects like this can take awhile to get started but I won't be surprised if this thing stalls out.

ImprovSTL · PostMay 14, 2018#692018-05-14T16:46+00:00

STLrainbow wrote: ↑
May 14, 2018
I know projects like this can take awhile to get started but I won't be surprised if this thing stalls out.

The fact that the Foundry hasn't even really started I am sure has slowed things down. I'm not too worried if the Foundry gets underway soon. They were supposed to break ground this spring...

dredger · PostMay 14, 2018#702018-05-14T18:30+00:00

^ Couple thoughts running through my mind.

Would it be fair to say that Green Streets has a decent record of bringing projects to completion but seems to take longer in part not being as big & not a heavy hitter in finances as other developers. The plus side, they seem the type that due their due diligence first and are committed once they announce a project.

The second, believe Midas Hospitality was taking the lead on phase II hotel tower/platform. They are now knee deep in both hotels on Forest Park Ave and have a competing hotel/brand going up in CWE. So you wonder if they had to pull the throttle back on the Armory just on lace of resources to juggle everything. The plus side to me is the Armory proposal seems to have go with a hotel tower which suggests a full service hotel w some conference/full kitchen as part of its plan and believe that will work for the area to compliment what is going on.

STLrainbow · PostMay 14, 2018#712018-05-14T19:10+00:00

I'm not counting out the project by any means, but it's been 15 months since it was announced they had a tenant committed to 30,000 sq. ft. of office for the Armory and a brewery in hand for the adjacent building that they hoped to announce in "60-90 days". I'm not sure they have those anymore or at minimum seems like they have made very slow progress in additional leasing. (Also note two breweries have been announced for The Foundry since then.) In addition, they have yet to acquire the vacant parcel from Union Electric they need for the brewery building and hotel phase. (I think Armory parking in planned for the basement so it's not needed for that.)

Again this is an incredibly complex project and I think hiccups along the way had to be expected, but if we don't hear anything relatively soon, and especially with Chroma wrapping up now, I think there's reason for being cautious on the timeframe for this one.

urban_dilettante · PostMay 15, 2018#722018-05-15T01:43+00:00

^ the brewery is out. it was going to be Modern but it fell through. i thought the current plan was to demolish the building for parking.

STLrainbow · PostMay 15, 2018#732018-05-15T17:36+00:00

^ interesting. I have no idea on what's in and what's out but I can say if they demo that building it will be a much less interesting project and much less of a district than what's been pitched.

And from the renderings, it looks like they actually intend(ed) to bisect that building in order to extend Bernard towards Grand and parking garage so there'd actually be three buildings instead of two in addition to future hotel. Not sure if the rear portion -- 502 Prospect -- of the halved parcel would be new construction or modification of the existing. One building I assume would be the brewery and maybe other entertainment and the other for the additional office orientation. (The hotel and parking lot just north of Scott is the parcel I mentioned that they still would need to acquire from Union Electric.)

dredger · PostMay 15, 2018#742018-05-15T18:11+00:00

^ Seems goofy in rendering to extend Bernard only part way instead of making it a through street under Grand. Seems like adding more grid is not a bad idea to me, especially around metrolink station, if you can always incorporate the bike path/pedestrian access to the Foundry & platform access from grand. Thus making it pretty well connected to area instead of being an island in itself

From the rendering it is touch to tell if hotel is still on parking platform offering street access from Grand which I think is a pretty good idea and gives the hotel tower some great visibility from freeway. Which also leads to another question, is Midas Hospitality still in this? Would they be the ones looking to acquiring union electric building?

debaliviere · PostMay 15, 2018#752018-05-15T19:03+00:00

dredger wrote: ↑
May 15, 2018
^ Seems goofy in rendering to extend Bernard only part way instead of making it a through street under Grand. Seems like adding more grid is not a bad idea to me, especially around metrolink station, if you can always incorporate the bike path/pedestrian access to the Foundry & platform access from grand. Thus making it pretty well connected to area instead of being an island in itself

It looks like the ramp from eastbound 40 (the Market Street exit) basically turns into Bernard at Grand. To make it a through street, you'd have to remove the ramp, I guess.

The Armory District

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