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PostMar 18, 2014#26

I've been to all of those places, and you're right, I was too hasty about Pittsburgh.

Baltimore and Cleveland, though? I like Indy more. Much less of an inferiority complex, much more of a "let's make it happen for us" mentality, and much, much less of the phenomenon you see in places like Baltimore, Cleveland, and, yes, St. Louis, where the vast majority of people growing up in the metro are raised to despise the City or, at best, be ambivalent toward it.

Indy is one of those places that, to me, just felt like its best days are either here or arriving sometime son, not decidedly in the past.

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PostMar 18, 2014#27

Cleveland, Saint Louis and Pittsburgh are somewhat like brothers with Cincy a littler cousin. I like 'em all and each has great character. Indy and KC are nice but in a different way. I do like that KC is embracing some good urbanism principles and its great to have a good partner on the other side of the state.... hopefully that will increasingly pay off in sounder state policies.

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PostMar 18, 2014#28

Indianapolis is my least favorite American city. Sorry-- I think it's totally lame!

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PostMar 18, 2014#29

stlgasm wrote:Indianapolis is my least favorite American city. Sorry-- I think it's totally lame!
Outside of the duckpin bowling venues, I have to agree. But, I think it is totally fair to compare us with KC, Indy, Louisville, Memphis, etc. Their tax bases are nearly 1M, our's a mere 300K and dropping steadily.

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PostMar 18, 2014#30

Mark- you have a good point, but based on the built environment and infrastructure, St. Louis looks and feels so much more "big city" compared to any of those minor league towns. :)

Cleveland, Baltimore and Pittsburgh all have rail transit as well; KC, Indy and Louisville do not.

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PostMar 18, 2014#31

Mark Groth wrote:But, I think it is totally fair to compare us with KC, Indy, Louisville, Memphis, etc. Their tax bases are nearly 1M, our's a mere 300K and dropping steadily.
tax base per area is probably similar though. in all of those cities that 1M tax base is spread over a much larger area than 62 sq mi, including all encompassed infrastructure.

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PostMar 20, 2014#32

Careful with the sports references....if we lose the Rams (God help us), it will be one more reason for us to be lumped into a different category in peoples' minds. Indy and STL will be 2 sport towns and KC will surpass us by having 3. Indianapolis is also set on their rotation for NCAA Final Four hosting so their name and brand is going to be once again consistently force fed to the masses starting next fall.

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PostMar 20, 2014#33

^^^ What's the third in KC? MLS? I like soccer, but I'm not sure most folks would count that as a "major league sport".

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PostMar 20, 2014#34

People can label MLS however they want, but it is a professional sport. The verbage "minor league" towns was thrown around in reference to "inferior" cities and I'm just saying KC has 3 professional sports to our potential 2 if we lose the Rams. Interesting that you wouldn't count Major Leauge Soccer as a major league sport.

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PostMar 21, 2014#35

Rams are staying in St.Louis so we'll still have 3 and MLS is a major sport but its not as major as the big 3 baseball football and Hockey.. St.Louis does have the potential to land either a MLS or NBA team but more realistically MLS has far more of a edge than NBA here. I couldn't see KC supporting a NHL team nor a NBA but i could be wrong. St.Louis fans are far more supportive of their teams than most cities ...

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PostMar 25, 2014#36

won't it be funny if 50 or 100 years from now when Ballwin is an isolated hollowed out shell of its former 30,000 resident heyday and is struggling to pay for services, has poor schools for the remaining children stuck there, and no viable transportation system to connect its remaining residents to the job & lifestyle opportunities of the vibrant city core, that this resolution will be regarded as a short sighted, self centered, grave mistake on par with the Great Divorce of 1876? 8)

http://www.stltoday.com/news/local/govt ... 6e0d2.html



http://blogs.riverfronttimes.com/dailyr ... _split.php

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PostMar 25, 2014#37

https://www.census.gov/censusexplorer/c ... lorer.html

Type in Ballwin, then change to "Over 65". From 2000 to 2012, every Ballwin tract increased 3-5% of its 65+ population. Population remained roughly stable in all except one tract, which saw a slight decline (the one with the most elderly residents, who are likely dying or moving to St. Charles). Change from "Over 65" to "Median Household Income". From 1990 to 2012, median household income has declined, especially in the more elderly tracts (retirement income is less than working age income). For example:

Tract 2178.07
$98,800 in 1990
$90,200 in 2000 (9% decline)
$73,600 in 2012 (18% decline)

What will the Ballwin of 2020 look like? Older, poorer, and less populous.

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PostMar 25, 2014#38

Those income numbers are really startling.

Ballwin will live and die by the quality of Parkway schools. If Parkway can remain among the best districts in the region it will still be able to attract young families. However, much of the housing stock is unimpressive 25 to 35 year old suburban schlock that is dated, smaller, and more expensive to maintain than new construction, while lacking the charm of historic homes in the city and inner-ring suburbs. These homes and the homes of downsizing baby boomers are going to drive down house prices and open up the area to new buyers who will further shift the socioeconomic makeup of the town and school district, and could impact the overall quality of the schools.
americancitizen wrote:won't it be funny if 50 or 100 years from now when Ballwin is an isolated hollowed out shell of its former 30,000 resident heyday and is struggling to pay for services, has poor schools for the remaining children stuck there, and no viable transportation system to connect its remaining residents to the job & lifestyle opportunities of the vibrant city core, that this resolution will be regarded as a short sighted, self centered, grave mistake on par with the Great Divorce of 1876?
I know this is a joke, but I'm really starting wonder if the lack of public support for reunification is a blessing in disguise. Large parts of the county are facing a steep decline. Unlike the city, which can offer an urban lifestyle that contrasts with that of newer suburbs, these areas offer nothing unique. If you want to live in an urban neighborhood in the St. Louis area, most of your options are in the city. If you want to live in a suburb, you have so many other options that the only people who are going to live in places like Spanish Lake and Normandy and those who can't afford anything better. These places are going to go down fast and they're not going to come back because there are no charming row houses to rehab in Bridgeton.

The city has a long way to go, but I think it's fair to say that it is trending in the opposite direction than the county. It may be that 20 years from now, people are fleeing into the city to avoid the bad schools, high taxes, and political corruption of St. Louis county.

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PostMar 25, 2014#39

Parkway is seeing significant declines in enrollment in Parkway South High and other zones are stagnant. Rockwood is stagnant in the eastern part of its district, too. I don't think Ballwin is going to "rebound" from the aging process.

But, maybe in 50 years, people will think to rehab charming ranch style homes. I know a lot of folks already pine for the MCM lifestyle, so maybe that Carter/Reagan era vibe will be big in the 2040s and 2050s?

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PostMar 25, 2014#40

^Thats an incredibly frustrating statement. If you think the city will be able to recover in 20 years without the county I think you are being incredibly optimistic. I'd agree that the city has some positive momentum but it could easily be reversed and the city will be lamenting not incorporating the county again.

The point of consolidation isn't an urban vs. suburban argument. It's not a black vs. white argument, or a republican vs. democrat argument. It is a St. Louis vs. Chicago, Indianapolis, Nashville, Minneapolis, Memphis, Kansas City, Etc. Etc..... If you look back in 20 years and say we the city is finally outgrowing the county where do you think either will be relative to them. It's called Better Together and despite what either side looses the region will be.

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PostMar 25, 2014#41

americancitizen wrote:won't it be funny if 50 or 100 years from now when Ballwin is an isolated hollowed out shell of its former 30,000 resident heyday and is struggling to pay for services, has poor schools for the remaining children stuck there, and no viable transportation system to connect its remaining residents to the job & lifestyle opportunities of the vibrant city core, that this resolution will be regarded as a short sighted, self centered, grave mistake on par with the Great Divorce of 1876? 8)

http://www.stltoday.com/news/local/govt ... 6e0d2.html



http://blogs.riverfronttimes.com/dailyr ... _split.php
This statement helps re-infer that I believe (probably almost everyone on the forum) that the county doesn't realize that it is in economic and demographic decline, and even more surprising (or not) is incomplete denial, and about its stormy future.

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PostMar 26, 2014#42

FTR, Ballwin is in the Rockwood School District.

-RBB

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PostMar 26, 2014#43

It's actually in both Rockwood and Parkway. Parkway West High School serves Ballwin along part of the east side of Kehrs Mill and south of Clayton Road, north of Manchester Road. RSD and PSD split some subdivisions in that area. Ballwin extends east to 141 in some places, too. When I referred to Parkway South, much of their enrollment is SE of Manchester and 141, which isn't Ballwin but is close. Tract 2807 is Ballwin but it's in Rockwood.

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PostMar 26, 2014#44

rbb wrote:FTR, Ballwin is in the Rockwood School District.

-RBB
It's actually split between the two districts. Parkway West High, South Middle, Claymont Elementary, and Henry Elementary are all in Ballwin. Looking at the census data, the Rockwood half of Ballwin appears to be a bit wealthier than the Parkway half. I wonder if this divide will cause tension down the road. If Parkway schools begin to under perform Rockwood schools, the wealth and age divide in Ballwin could become more dramatic.
STLEnginerd wrote:^Thats an incredibly frustrating statement. If you think the city will be able to recover in 20 years without the county I think you are being incredibly optimistic. I'd agree that the city has some positive momentum but it could easily be reversed and the city will be lamenting not incorporating the county again.

The point of consolidation isn't an urban vs. suburban argument. It's not a black vs. white argument, or a republican vs. democrat argument. It is a St. Louis vs. Chicago, Indianapolis, Nashville, Minneapolis, Memphis, Kansas City, Etc. Etc..... If you look back in 20 years and say we the city is finally outgrowing the county where do you think either will be relative to them. It's called Better Together and despite what either side looses the region will be.
Yeah, that 20 year scenario is definitely wishful thinking on my part. I actually support re-entry, though I'm skeptical of uni-gov. I'm just very pessimistic about it actually happening. Better Together has thus far completely failed to make a strong case for any kind of merger. Stltoday commenters drive me as crazy as anyone, but they do have a point when they ask "what's in it for me?" No one can give a solid answer beyond hand waving about supposed increased efficiency. Any disruption of the status quo requires clear and compelling benefits, otherwise voters are going to default to saying "no".

I was living in Indiana a few years ago when Mitch Daniels was pushing a ballot initiative to eliminate the township layer of local government. Indiana is the only state in the country in which all cities and villages are also part of one or more townships. Daniels made what I thought was a very sensible case for getting rid of redundant government offices and saving taxpayer money. I voted against Daniels for governor that year, but still voted for this proposal because I though it made a lot of sense. Yet, it stilled failed to pass, even with the support of a very popular governor. I see the City-County merger as a very similar issue with less obvious benefits. County residents are going to be skeptical and generally feel that "if it ain't broke, don't fix it."

As for St. Louis vs. Chicago/Nashville/KC. I just disagree on that issue. I think St Louis City vs. St Louis County vs. St Charles County is much more important. St. Louis is quite a bit larger than Nashville. It's quite a bit larger than KC. It's quite a bit larger than hipster darling boomtowns Austin and Portland. It will probably never be as large as Chicago. I don't think size is that important to making it a great, livable, diverse, interesting, and urban place. There's already plenty of jobs in the region. There's already plenty of people in the region. It's just organized poorly and struggles to keep homegrown talent. The best, fastest, and most realistic way to make the city better is to attract the jobs, businesses and people already present in the region back into the city. While it's nice to read an article about a San Francisco entrepreneur bringing his start-up to St. Louis, I don't think that's what's transforming the city. Most of the people I know living in Soulard and hanging out on Cherokee moved there from St. Louis County not SoMa.

Now this same suburban to urban migration can happen if the city is part of the county, and I support that. However, to pretend that St. Louis city is not competing with the rest of the region and that jobs moving from downtown to Overland is somehow okay because it's "good for the region" is counterproductive, especially when the Ballwins of the world seem to not give a sh*t about the city or the region.

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PostMar 26, 2014#45

stlgasm wrote:Indianapolis is my least favorite American city. Sorry-- I think it's totally lame!
I like Indianapolis a lot, but I bristle at any comparisons with St. Louis. Our city is in a whole different league. Indy has a very vibrant downtown for a city its size- but it's also the state capital and the captive audience is obviously bigger because of that. Although it has taken some hits lately as well, probably because the growth in Hamilton County hasn't slowed down at all, and that's been the focus of newer retail development. What Indy lacks is neighborhoods that matter- something St. Louis has in spades. I'll take our somewhat quiet downtown in exchange for all of the great city and inner suburban neighborhoods that we have. Broad Ripple in Indy is like Lemay with nicer restaurants in my opinion.

As far as 'Better Together' is concerned, the Ballwin opposition to city reentry into the county and/or consolidation is a joke. It reminds me of the state legislators who are obsessed with stopping Sharia Law in Missouruh. Nothing even remotely official regarding city reentry or city-county consolidation has been proposed. And county officials have already gone on record to state that the city will not be bailed out by the county if its financial condition deteriorates. So I'm not sure why it's necessary for Ballwin officials to get 'in front' (in their opinion) on this issue. It just seems like good ol' fashioned fearmongering to me.

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PostMar 26, 2014#46

^ Agree it seems premature for Ballwin officials to make an opposition statement when there isn't a formal/specific proposal.

Any chance we will see a county municipality make a statement in support? Perhaps a neighboring border like Maplewood? Shrewsbury? UCity?

PostMar 27, 2014#47

Does Lambert provide any opportunity in the Better Together discussion?

Isn't the airport city owned land in the county? Is there a loophole where the rest of St Louis City could join the airport district in the County?!

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PostMar 28, 2014#48

Not very plausible, but World's Largest Airport would be an interesting slogan.

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PostMar 29, 2014#49

jakektu wrote:Does Lambert provide any opportunity in the Better Together discussion?

Isn't the airport city owned land in the county? Is there a loophole where the rest of St Louis City could join the airport district in the County?!
I like how you are thinking outside the Bridgeton.

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PostMar 30, 2014#50

stlhistory wrote:Parkway is seeing significant declines in enrollment in Parkway South High and other zones are stagnant. Rockwood is stagnant in the eastern part of its district, too. I don't think Ballwin is going to "rebound" from the aging process.

But, maybe in 50 years, people will think to rehab charming ranch style homes. I know a lot of folks already pine for the MCM lifestyle, so maybe that Carter/Reagan era vibe will be big in the 2040s and 2050s?
An article in the P-D about a renewed boom in Lindbergh schools as the olds are beginning to move out and the youngs in:

http://www.stltoday.com/news/local/educ ... f69bf.html

It would be interesting to know patterns of where they are coming from... some from the city of course and I would imagine quite a few from other parts of the County with not as good schools.

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