urbanSTL

onecity wrote:Those funding it determine it. If a private entity stepped up and said "we're going to build a light rail line that runs down Grand from Page to Gravois", and they had the ability to get it done, and the plans looked good, would you argue with them over the need for it?

I would not argue but i would ask that this private entity sets up a multi-million endowment for operations of the line for the next 20-30years.

If someone gave you a million dollar car, would you accept it and pay

Local Tax Due (4.454%): $44,540.00

State Tax Due (4.225%): $42,250.00

Total Tax Due (8.679%): $86,790.00

dbInSouthCity wrote: who determines that the system needs to be built out?

The immediate trend seems to be toward not just those who pay for it, but those who want it enough and are willing to put in some financial support and a ton of political and administrative support.

I say this based on St. Louis transit's two most recent developments: The Loop Trolley and the Cortex Metrolink Station. In both instances it was hyper-local groups ( Joe Edwards & Co. and WUSM/BJC/CORTEX) with specific interests that got the necessary studies done, polished the proposals, raised awareness, obtained federal funding, pitched in supplemental funding, and generally shepherded the projects through the entire political process.

I'm not saying this is a good or bad thing, but it could be the beginning of a trend - that relative political stagnation and deadlock will lead interested parties to pursue their own goals more independently.

^ It really is time for the key stakeholders along the Saint Louis Streetcar line to step up and say they want this and will invest in it.... if not it really is a waste of time. Detroit stakeholders didn't sit on the sidelines... they got involved and made it happen for the M-1 line.

roger wyoming II wrote:It was really surprised to see that Saint Louis Streetcar was estimated at $410 million in the EWG long-range plan, but then saw how the agency uses 2030 as the start date for illustrative projects that do not have funding secured. N/S Metrolink likewise was estimated at $2.2 billion.

We might as well just give up as a region if things take that long.

How many miles is that for the STL Streetcar?

I'm hearing they are raising money for a $500k more in-depth study. Apparently, the streetcar will probably not go as far west as once visioned. My guess is that it will stop at Grand Center. Also the streetcar plans to spread out in "all directions", not necessarily just the route of the N-S Metrolink line. If I had to guess, the streetcar would expand to areas that would be willing to pass a TDD and could muster enough money to get it there. Maybe the Grove? South Grand? Soulard? Euclid and Maryland? Cherokee St? Should be interesting. If the county goes gong ho with Westport, I wonder if the city would be more receptive to building a streetcar system.

If I had to guess, the streetcar would expand to areas that would be willing to pass a TDD and could muster enough money to get it there.

I've attended Streetcar events in the past. Yes, they seems to be set on TDD and using that as their method to get funding. So basically, whoever has the money, gets the transit. I have a problem with that. I worry that its going to isolate poorer neighborhood even further when they need transit the most. Also, doing this piecemeal approach by passing a TDD and then following with a streetcar would be incredibly inefficient, not just in regards to funding but also in regards to whatever the final product turns out to be.

^ I fear that too, outside a small spur to ONSL, that form of fund raising would essential leave most of North St. Louis in the dust. I really wish the city would get with Metro and say forget N-S line, match funds for a streetcar network that feeds into the Metrolink spine and continue to expand Metrolink into the county. I've seen other cities proposing 20-30 mile streetcar networks for what we build one 8 mile Metrolink line with.

It is clear that the political support as Stl Streetcar was originally envisioned is not there. So why not take a breather from the whole mess. As noted, Detroit's M-1 and KC's streetcar momentum and timelines put things to shame and a half to million here improving existing street infrastructure downtown could do wonders instead of paying engineering consultants.

Instead, I believe Metro, City and County should really look hard at a N-S hybrid line that gets tracks/streetcar in the city with BRT from the county into and through the city. Embrace central corridor streetcar line as a part of the system build out that can happen afterwards are in conjunction. That tackles the political reality that the county wants either Westport and or Metro North, Metro South, provides an avenue to at least develop or orient N-S right of way for transit priority and provides an avenue/basis for a city streetcar system that piggybacks a transit system that will most likely qualify for federal funding match.

^ I'm getting the idea that the St. Louis Streetcar will go no further west than Grand, emphasis may be transitioning more to a expanded N-S emphasis (+ neighborhoods willing to contribute to an expanded TDD), for obvious political reasons. I remember hearing a majority of alderman, including alderman Roddy, coming out vehemently against the proposal. They said that any rail transit needs to come in the form of a N-S line, no matter the specific route.

I also agree, the N-S line as envisioned in the city could be built much cheaper as a streetcar line with a BRT overlay into the county. How much would that probably cost, $400 million?

If that's the plan, than the Loop Trolley actually starts to make some sense. That really looks like a good plan to me. Especially down Jefferson. That street is really asking for some sort of road diet, and would be a key corridor for regeneration, connecting Soulard and Benton Park with the success of the Tower Grove area.

I don't think a streetcar down Grand is a good idea. I think anything rail needs dedicated lanes and have the ability to move without traffic. Otherwise its no better than just driving. Streets like Jefferson, Gravois, Flroisant, etc. offer that. South Grand is an ideal location for a transit stop. I think a line on Gravois with a stop at Cherokee or Grand/Chippewa would be better.

Also, if you take the Lindell streetcar south on Taylor to Clayton, and enter Forest Park on Clayton and then go towards the history museum, you hit up CWE metrolink, College of Pharmacy, Wash U Med, Science Center, Muny, center of Forest Park, and History Museum. Seemes like a better chance for more ridership.

I wish Phase I went 1 block further west to Sarah, to get it that much closer to the new Boyle/Sarah Metrolink. It'd still be a 5 block n-s walk, but it would establish Sarah as a key pedestrian corridor, with increased foot traffic by transit riders and hopefully more of a retail presents.

Still, it's a great plan. Hopefully there's enough support for financing and construction.

I agree. It sounds like they are having trouble getting funding for the original plan. They've made it smaller (downtown to Grand Center and the north "spur") to have a better chance of funding. They displayed their total idea with all phases to give an idea of where they want it to end up.

I'd like to now how they come up with these routes. Is it just some folks sitting in a room deciding on the places they'd like it to go and picking a route? There doesn't seem to be a lot thought about constructability.

^ Pat, I think you're on the right path. Its obvious to me that they are having trouble gaining both political and financial support for the streetcar, as planned. I doubt this rendering is the "final build-out plan", but it was probably just thrown out there to build political support. I remember a lot of alderman blatantly coming out against the streetcar plan, because it didnt go further into north/south city, and was viewed as central corridor centric. Even Roddy, Alderman of the Central West End came out against it and called it a stupid plan. I personally would like to see the western terminus at grand and a more north and south city focus. Our most urban residential neighborhoods are currently not served by rail transit and that's a shame. I really do feel rail transit will stabilize northside neighborhoods and cause a boom on the southside.

They reintroduced it since it coincided with the Ferguson Report. The report had a lot of mention of transit so it was a good time to reintroduce.

STLEnginerd wrote:Regarding the original alignment, The big issue is that it would spend hundreds of millions to cannibalize the still underutilized Metrolink riders. If Metrolink did not exist this would be a no brainier, but it does.

The new alignments are pretty obvious but is also a duplication of the proposed future NS Metrolink. It's an either or for that as well. My main observation is the decision to route it along 14th. I still think tucker is a far better alignment option. Likewise I think Gravois to jefferson is far better than chouteau to jefferson.

Lastly any grand streetcar will have to share ROW with vehicular traffic at least through Grand Center, and South Grand. Other than those two choke points though there is plenty of room for dedicated ROW.

Would the streetcar really compete with Metrolink, given that I assume it would be slower and have more stops? I thought the point of the streetcar was more about local connectivity, whereas MetroLink is more oriented to inter-neighborhood transit.

I'd still rather burn political capital on a NS metro link then this. I think if this happens first it makes the NS metrolink a much harder sell.