^ IMO - zero to none. The convention is massive compared to Union Station has and can relatively easily add. You'd be talking about an entirely new Convention Center, presumably largely on land freed up by a new 21st interchange. And FWIW, the Convention Center is probably better located on Wash Ave, closer to the big hotels and casino.
^ Have to agree,
The difficulty of building a new stadium outright is that the funds it will suck up while the bonds are still being paid on the old old dome. In other words, their will be nil to put back into EDJ as convention space. At the same time, I think the city has to use what levarge it can get out of a new stadium outside the city for some funds dedicated to upgrades on conventions or infrascture improvements in the immediate area.
The difficulty of building a new stadium outright is that the funds it will suck up while the bonds are still being paid on the old old dome. In other words, their will be nil to put back into EDJ as convention space. At the same time, I think the city has to use what levarge it can get out of a new stadium outside the city for some funds dedicated to upgrades on conventions or infrascture improvements in the immediate area.
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Am I the only one who thinks this looks like a suburban rec-plex? To the right is the lap pool. The water slides are to the left. Free weights are in back. And there's a snack bar in the corner.
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My personal feeling has always been that — if you're going to spend most of a billion dollars — you should get something iconic.
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My personal feeling has always been that — if you're going to spend most of a billion dollars — you should get something iconic.
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^Amen to that. This thing is straight outta Ellisville, MO.
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Here's a proposal.
Build a giant bird's nest — or a flying saucer or a geodesic dome or an underground stadium inside a giant Indian mound or something (anything) iconic. Put it in Illinois, directly across from the arch. Connect it to the City by air gondolas, and wrap all of this into a sales tax that the Illinois counties will join in paying. While you're at it, remove I-70 downtown, construct a lock and dam to the south to double the width of the river like in Alton, throw in a couple marinas anchored to the base of the birds nest/saucer/mound/non-recplex/whatever ... with some water sports and recreational boating, plus a nice restaurant on a dock between the stadium and the arch.
It's just an idea. I'm not yet sure where exactly MLS and Ikea fit into the proposal.
Build a giant bird's nest — or a flying saucer or a geodesic dome or an underground stadium inside a giant Indian mound or something (anything) iconic. Put it in Illinois, directly across from the arch. Connect it to the City by air gondolas, and wrap all of this into a sales tax that the Illinois counties will join in paying. While you're at it, remove I-70 downtown, construct a lock and dam to the south to double the width of the river like in Alton, throw in a couple marinas anchored to the base of the birds nest/saucer/mound/non-recplex/whatever ... with some water sports and recreational boating, plus a nice restaurant on a dock between the stadium and the arch.
It's just an idea. I'm not yet sure where exactly MLS and Ikea fit into the proposal.
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Actually the square footage of the union station shed is surprisingly close to the current convention centers not including the dome and parking garage. (based on google earth measurements)Alex Ihnen wrote:^ IMO - zero to none. The convention is massive compared to Union Station has and can relatively easily add. You'd be talking about an entirely new Convention Center, presumably largely on land freed up by a new 21st interchange. And FWIW, the Convention Center is probably better located on Wash Ave, closer to the big hotels and casino.
Better located is somewhat subjective There are pluses and minuses to it being there.
The zero to none assessment is probably accurate though at least to a few significant digits but its worth considering since the urban mall concept turned out to be a failure and they decided to build the transit hub two blocks away instead of there.
I guess the real question is can both the convention center coexist with a union station convention center? Will we get double the conventions or two centers at half capacity?
Also I realize I have a habit of posting comments in the wrong thread as this has very little to do with the Rams anymore
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The convention space at US, even a renovated/expanded US isn't close to America's Center. There are a dozen or more "convention centers" in STL. While they probably compete a bit, they really have their own niches.
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If we go totally new stadium, we should re-think the whole stadium paradigm in the HDTV era, similar to the way movie theaters have re-thought movie theaters.
Go much smaller on the new stadium and make it ALL sky boxes and comfy club seats with HDTVs in front of each seat -- in steep terraces so you can see over the tiers in front of you -- like the Clarkson Jeweler boxes in the dome end zone. (I sat there during the fan scrimmage last year.) And make the seats heated if the stadium is open air, just to add something that is different from my family room.
Don't build another Dallas dome -- that era is over. We need to build something that suddenly makes every other stadium in the NFL instantly obsolete, and gets St. Louis excited about supporting this.
Go much smaller on the new stadium and make it ALL sky boxes and comfy club seats with HDTVs in front of each seat -- in steep terraces so you can see over the tiers in front of you -- like the Clarkson Jeweler boxes in the dome end zone. (I sat there during the fan scrimmage last year.) And make the seats heated if the stadium is open air, just to add something that is different from my family room.
Don't build another Dallas dome -- that era is over. We need to build something that suddenly makes every other stadium in the NFL instantly obsolete, and gets St. Louis excited about supporting this.
The Rams should pay their own way. No taxpayer money including CVC money should go towards another stadium. If it is a great investment, let the Rams pay the bill. When are people going to wake up a realize the ROI on a stadium is nothing. Not only to taxpayers pay the bill, the pay the upkeep and give away all the naming rights and revenue from events other than football. Look at Indy. They are nearly bankrupt over their stadiums. Colts get every dime of revenue including concerts and high schools sports before expenses, all naming rights revenue and the taxpayer picks up all maintenance, upgrades, and expenses of any event held. Time for this billion dollar industry to pay their own way.
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I think it would be OK to also tax Rams customers and parking lots and others that benefit from the Rams games. Also, OK to tax out-of-towners thru hotel and car rental tax since Lord knows we St. Louisans pay a ton for other city stadiums when we visit their cities on business.tmb33 wrote:The Rams should pay their own way. No taxpayer money including CVC money should go towards another stadium. If it is a great investment, let the Rams pay the bill. When are people going to wake up a realize the ROI on a stadium is nothing. Not only to taxpayers pay the bill, the pay the upkeep and give away all the naming rights and revenue from events other than football. Look at Indy. They are nearly bankrupt over their stadiums. Colts get every dime of revenue including concerts and high schools sports before expenses, all naming rights revenue and the taxpayer picks up all maintenance, upgrades, and expenses of any event held. Time for this billion dollar industry to pay their own way.
I think they should let them go. Call their bluff. The NFL wants to hold LA over every city's head, let them move. Let some other city play the fool. There simply is no value in having an NFL team for STL when the taxpayers pay any cost of the stadium. The taxpayers will also be on the hook for any highway/infrasture improvements. And like you said, tax them...just like every other business.gary kreie wrote:I think it would be OK to also tax Rams customers and parking lots and others that benefit from the Rams games. Also, OK to tax out-of-towners thru hotel and car rental tax since Lord knows we St. Louisans pay a ton for other city stadiums when we visit their cities on business.tmb33 wrote:The Rams should pay their own way. No taxpayer money including CVC money should go towards another stadium. If it is a great investment, let the Rams pay the bill. When are people going to wake up a realize the ROI on a stadium is nothing. Not only to taxpayers pay the bill, the pay the upkeep and give away all the naming rights and revenue from events other than football. Look at Indy. They are nearly bankrupt over their stadiums. Colts get every dime of revenue including concerts and high schools sports before expenses, all naming rights revenue and the taxpayer picks up all maintenance, upgrades, and expenses of any event held. Time for this billion dollar industry to pay their own way.
De facto now, any stadium with a reliable source of electricity is a "top tier" stadium. Perhaps the CVC should appeal the arbitration ruling.
I hope the Rams and STL work this out. Just one less thing for me to do for fun in this town if the Rams move.tmb33 wrote:I think they should let them go. Call their bluff. The NFL wants to hold LA over every city's head, let them move. Let some other city play the fool. There simply is no value in having an NFL team for STL when the taxpayers pay any cost of the stadium. The taxpayers will also be on the hook for any highway/infrasture improvements. And like you said, tax them...just like every other business.gary kreie wrote:I think it would be OK to also tax Rams customers and parking lots and others that benefit from the Rams games. Also, OK to tax out-of-towners thru hotel and car rental tax since Lord knows we St. Louisans pay a ton for other city stadiums when we visit their cities on business.tmb33 wrote:The Rams should pay their own way. No taxpayer money including CVC money should go towards another stadium. If it is a great investment, let the Rams pay the bill. When are people going to wake up a realize the ROI on a stadium is nothing. Not only to taxpayers pay the bill, the pay the upkeep and give away all the naming rights and revenue from events other than football. Look at Indy. They are nearly bankrupt over their stadiums. Colts get every dime of revenue including concerts and high schools sports before expenses, all naming rights revenue and the taxpayer picks up all maintenance, upgrades, and expenses of any event held. Time for this billion dollar industry to pay their own way.
I'm fine with the Rams leaving downtown, really, west or east (annex East St. Louis!).
I don't want them building new on the Bottle District because that should be primed for residential towers if the City has any sort of future at all. And, it'd be the perfect proof of concept for any I-70 removal campaign! Any redevelopment closer to the Rams' specs of the existing Edward Jones Dome will cost even more considering lost revenue for conventions and games/events during renovation.
But my main reason for wanting the Rams to relocate in the region is that I'd love to see the St. Louis Convention and Visitors Commission actually make the renovations (or most of them) it had proposed prior to arbitration. It really is a pretty slick (and economical, all things considered) design. And without a football team in place, the new design would really help situate it as a preferred large-event convention space in the Midwest. I imagine that with no football team, some of the seating grids could even be converted to raised/extended platform space for tiered exhibitions.
I don't want them building new on the Bottle District because that should be primed for residential towers if the City has any sort of future at all. And, it'd be the perfect proof of concept for any I-70 removal campaign! Any redevelopment closer to the Rams' specs of the existing Edward Jones Dome will cost even more considering lost revenue for conventions and games/events during renovation.
But my main reason for wanting the Rams to relocate in the region is that I'd love to see the St. Louis Convention and Visitors Commission actually make the renovations (or most of them) it had proposed prior to arbitration. It really is a pretty slick (and economical, all things considered) design. And without a football team in place, the new design would really help situate it as a preferred large-event convention space in the Midwest. I imagine that with no football team, some of the seating grids could even be converted to raised/extended platform space for tiered exhibitions.
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I wouldn't go that far as there is plenty of space elsewhere for residential tower infill, but yes, I think residential towers in both BPV and TBD would be a big boost for the city. I think it is inevitable for BPV but not quite as confident for TBD.Kevin B wrote:I don't want them building new on the Bottle District because that should be primed for residential towers if the City has any sort of future at all.
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STLEnginerd wrote:Actually the square footage of the union station shed is surprisingly close to the current convention centers not including the dome and parking garage. (based on google earth measurements)Alex Ihnen wrote:^ IMO - zero to none. The convention is massive compared to Union Station has and can relatively easily add. You'd be talking about an entirely new Convention Center, presumably largely on land freed up by a new 21st interchange. And FWIW, the Convention Center is probably better located on Wash Ave, closer to the big hotels and casino.
Better located is somewhat subjective There are pluses and minuses to it being there.
The zero to none assessment is probably accurate though at least to a few significant digits but its worth considering since the urban mall concept turned out to be a failure and they decided to build the transit hub two blocks away instead of there.
I guess the real question is can both the convention center coexist with a union station convention center? Will we get double the conventions or two centers at half capacity?
Also I realize I have a habit of posting comments in the wrong thread as this has very little to do with the Rams anymore
It is my understanding that the CVC encourages new convention space to open in and around downtown. America's Center would never be competing for the same groups that the new Union Station Hotel convention center. However the CVC still gains revenue from the smaller spaces via the hotel tax.
Dan Dierdorf, Hall of Famer who played for the St. Louis Cardinals football team, and current member of the CVC, was on the Ryan Kelly Morning After on AM 590 the Fan, KFNS to talk about the situation between the Rams and St. Louis.
The audio can be heard .
Some takeaway points from the interview:
* There has been a lot of good work being done behind the scenes to pull all of these various entities together to find middle ground and get something done.
* The Rams would like to stay. They are not looking for a reason to leave St. Louis, they want to stay here. As long as that sentiment prevails, there is obviously reason for (cautious) optimism.
* He reiterated what many tuned into the situation, including Bernie Miklasz and Jim Thomas, have asserted, that we are probably looking at an open-air stadium. He also expanded on the same points we've heard that Stan is a real-estate developer and he will want to control his own developments around any new stadium.
* When asked about the Los Angeles situation, he said that it is important to note that this is not twenty years ago, where cities were lining up to poach NFL teams by building them free stadiums, and the NFL has made it clear they own the NFL market and it isn't just sitting there for an existing team to move into L.A. Many hoops would need to be jumped through between now and then for that to become a possibility.
* When asked what he thinks we'll be looking at in seven or eight years, he reiterated his cautious optimism and said he thinks we'll have an outdoor stadium built in either the Bottle District, Fenton, or Maryland Heights.
The audio can be heard .
Some takeaway points from the interview:
* There has been a lot of good work being done behind the scenes to pull all of these various entities together to find middle ground and get something done.
* The Rams would like to stay. They are not looking for a reason to leave St. Louis, they want to stay here. As long as that sentiment prevails, there is obviously reason for (cautious) optimism.
* He reiterated what many tuned into the situation, including Bernie Miklasz and Jim Thomas, have asserted, that we are probably looking at an open-air stadium. He also expanded on the same points we've heard that Stan is a real-estate developer and he will want to control his own developments around any new stadium.
* When asked about the Los Angeles situation, he said that it is important to note that this is not twenty years ago, where cities were lining up to poach NFL teams by building them free stadiums, and the NFL has made it clear they own the NFL market and it isn't just sitting there for an existing team to move into L.A. Many hoops would need to be jumped through between now and then for that to become a possibility.
* When asked what he thinks we'll be looking at in seven or eight years, he reiterated his cautious optimism and said he thinks we'll have an outdoor stadium built in either the Bottle District, Fenton, or Maryland Heights.
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So now that the primary purpose of the dome as a venue for football is on its last legs, what is its likely fate?
I would have to imagine nothing. It'll probably continue to be used for conventions. And now supposedly they'll be able to get even more conventions, since the Rams won't be playing there.roger wyoming II wrote:So now that the primary purpose of the dome as a venue for football is on its last legs, what is its likely fate?
Right?
There was a huge turnout of families downtown on Saturday for the Monster Truck event at the Dome. It was great to see the MX area so busy.
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^^ I mean is it likely some money will be pumped into it to facilitate more events anyway? As I understand it, very few conventions actually use dome space, so I was just wondering how easy it will be to utilize that space on a more regular basis and if some sizeable $$ would need to be used to do that.
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The Fenton site doesn't seem to be too appealing to me from a retail perspective. Here is a list of nearby big box retail centers.rawest1 wrote: He reiterated what many tuned into the situation, including Bernie Miklasz and Jim Thomas, have asserted, that we are probably looking at an open-air stadium. He also expanded on the same points we've heard that Stan is a real-estate developer and he will want to control his own developments around any new stadium.
* When asked what he thinks we'll be looking at in seven or eight years, he reiterated his cautious optimism and said he thinks we'll have an outdoor stadium built in either the Bottle District, Fenton, or Maryland Heights.
Fenton/Chrysler
(1)Gravois Bluffs at 141@30
(2)Kirkwood Commons 44@Lindbergh
(3)Sunset Hills Plaza Lindbergh@Watson
(4)Manchester Highlands 141@Manchester ***recently purchased by The Kroenke Group (TKG)
What do you think about the other locations?
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I could be wrong, but the Bottle Works site seems to be a lot tighter to do anything with retail, especially since a large footprint for the stadium seems to be what they want.moorlander wrote: What do you think about the other locations?
See my post above. If the CVC has the funds in the coffer to do so, I say go ahead with some of their upgrade plans (natural lighting, a new eastern facade, etc.). The plans actually looked really, really good.roger wyoming II wrote:^^ I mean is it likely some money will be pumped into it to facilitate more events anyway? As I understand it, very few conventions actually use dome space, so I was just wondering how easy it will be to utilize that space on a more regular basis and if some sizeable $$ would need to be used to do that.
I think there's reasonable cause to upgrade the Convention Center even without a football team, what with that 5-6 month gap for football no longer an issue, they could turn the place into a legitimate, large-scale convention space. Ideally an updated EJD would be convertible, providing multi-tiered plaforms for expositions/exhibits that can be replaced with seating grids when needed(roll-and-locks, maybe?) for major sporting/concert events.
And that new glass facade would sure look pretty reflecting a newly-built Memorial Boulevard, no?
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1)Convention Space. Not only used for exhibit space (Auto, Boat, etc) but for Church (COGIC)and group assemblys and group concerts (FIRST ROBOTICS).roger wyoming II wrote:So now that the primary purpose of the dome as a venue for football is on its last legs, what is its likely fate?
Home & Gargen Show
Holiday Magic
2)Amatuer Sporting Events
NCAA Sports (March Madness, Mizzou Rivalry Games (footbal and basketball), maybe even a bowl Game)
Olympic Trials - Swimming, Gymnastics, etc
State HighSchool Footbal games.
3)Concerts or Music Festivals (u2, Madonna, Rolling Stones, Lady Gaga)
4)Specialty Touring Shows (Monster Jam, Moto Cross)
5)High School or University Graduations