That's not necessarily a fair statistic. The Bears only had 45k more people attend their games. It just so happens that both STL & Chicago have smaller stadiums. It's not much of an improvement, but if you look at % of capacity, the Rams move up to 27 out of 32 (86%). How many of those ticket buyers actually showed up is a whole different argument. Indy averaged 103% capacity & was second in the league behind Dallas, but I don't think even Jim Irsay could defend that number.Mark Groth wrote:The Rams had the 2nd lowest attendance in 2011. http://espn.go.com/nfl/attendance Only Cincy was worse (and they made the playoffs). If we had a team that scores more TDs we'd probably be toward the middle of the pack.
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Last week the St. Louis Business Journal ranked the top 150 private companies in St. Louis. The Rams ranked tied for 84th with revenue of $210 million. The Cardinals were next at 86th with $207 million. I was surprised that the Rams actually had higher revenue than the Cardinals in a year when the Rams were 2nd worst in the leauge, and the Cardinals won the World Series.
T84. St. Louis Rams
2011 revenue: $210 million
86. St. Louis Cardinals
2011 revenue: $207 million
T84. St. Louis Rams
2011 revenue: $210 million
86. St. Louis Cardinals
2011 revenue: $207 million
That's because in the NFL all teams share TV revenue, which is where most of the money is at, anyway, because the NFL is leaps and bounds ahead of any other American sport league in terms of popularity.gary kreie wrote:Last week the St. Louis Business Journal ranked the top 150 private companies in St. Louis. The Rams ranked tied for 84th with revenue of $210 million. The Cardinals were next at 86th with $207 million. I was surprised that the Rams actually had higher revenue than the Cardinals in a year when the Rams were 2nd worst in the leauge, and the Cardinals won the World Series.
T84. St. Louis Rams
2011 revenue: $210 million
86. St. Louis Cardinals
2011 revenue: $207 million
^ Also, I believe the Cardinals are in the tail end of a long-term local TV deal that is a steal for FS Midwest. I would expect the Card's revenue to jump up quite a bit when they get a new local broadcast deal in a few years (2017?).
Another way to put it. No investment group will ever pay $2 billion for the Cards even though they will pay that for Dodgers as its not about how many world series wins or if you played in Brooklyn once upon a time. But how many local cable viewers each MLB franchise has a shot at and what that will generate in terms of club revenues.rawest1 wrote:That's because in the NFL all teams share TV revenue, which is where most of the money is at, anyway, because the NFL is leaps and bounds ahead of any other American sport league in terms of popularity.gary kreie wrote:Last week the St. Louis Business Journal ranked the top 150 private companies in St. Louis. The Rams ranked tied for 84th with revenue of $210 million. The Cardinals were next at 86th with $207 million. I was surprised that the Rams actually had higher revenue than the Cardinals in a year when the Rams were 2nd worst in the leauge, and the Cardinals won the World Series.
T84. St. Louis Rams
2011 revenue: $210 million
86. St. Louis Cardinals
2011 revenue: $207 million
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I've been thinking about the Rams May 1 response where the Rams will propose what CVC should do to put the Dome in the upper tier of NFL stadiums.gary kreie wrote:The Rams response on 1 May will be interesting. Will they go really big on their demands? Whatever they do, I am sure the ticket holders will pay for it, probably through a special taxing district bounded by the dome walls. Surely the Rams know all this. So it is a tricky thing for them. What would keep CVC from agreeing to whatever the Rams propose and then just taxing the dome users. The Rams would be stuck here for 10 more years and they would have indirectly priced themselves out of the market.
I believe CVC should announce NOW that they will ACCEPT whatever the Rams propose on May 1. That will ensure the Rams must stay in St. Louis for another 10 years, per the lease agreement.
And to pay for whatever the Rams propose on May 1, CVC should take a scorched-earth policy, and announce that St. Louis will create a special tax district bounded by the walls of the Edward Jones Dome, to tax the tickets of events in the dome. Then if the Rams propose something totally unreasonable, it would be paid for by taxes on their own customers, and they could price themselves out of the market, which they will now be in through 2025, per the lease agreement.
As a charter PSL season ticket holder since 1995, I believe we Rams fans should be the ones who pay for the dome improvements. BUT, I personally think the dome is OK as it is, and I'm not anxious to pay more for dome improvements. I am not demanding improvements off-the-field. What I really want is improvement ON THE FIELD.
If CVC takes this "a priori" approach, it would force the Rams to reign in their demands.
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TVgary kreie wrote:Last week the St. Louis Business Journal ranked the top 150 private companies in St. Louis. The Rams ranked tied for 84th with revenue of $210 million. The Cardinals were next at 86th with $207 million. I was surprised that the Rams actually had higher revenue than the Cardinals in a year when the Rams were 2nd worst in the leauge, and the Cardinals won the World Series.
T84. St. Louis Rams
2011 revenue: $210 million
86. St. Louis Cardinals
2011 revenue: $207 million
Was the Rams proposal due the 1st of May or end of May? Can't recall. Too early to speculate?
I'm assuming that the best negotiating position from Rams point of view is an all or nothing stadium proposal in Fenton. Heck, he will probably borrow some ones stadium rendering just to save a buck during this stage of negotiating.
Of course, what would I love to see for the St. Louis. HOK to come up with a innovative lightweight retractable roof for the dome, grass field during season - you also get an instant soccer stadium (pull up the grass for non-football season/convention season) and proposed removal of the raised section of I-70 to create a new Blvd fronting the stadium and connecting it with Laclede's Landing/River Tailgating.
Of course, Rams probably would want a shot at parking garages/revenues. That is fine, place garages between the new blvd and the backside of Pinnacle's casino. That specific area is going to be a dead zone for a long time any way you look at it. In addition, make Pinnacle's phase II & Bottle Works parking part of the deal and remove the Arch Grounds north parking garage to send a few cars their way (a little more parking revenue headed towards the Rams and Developers).
I'm assuming that the best negotiating position from Rams point of view is an all or nothing stadium proposal in Fenton. Heck, he will probably borrow some ones stadium rendering just to save a buck during this stage of negotiating.
Of course, what would I love to see for the St. Louis. HOK to come up with a innovative lightweight retractable roof for the dome, grass field during season - you also get an instant soccer stadium (pull up the grass for non-football season/convention season) and proposed removal of the raised section of I-70 to create a new Blvd fronting the stadium and connecting it with Laclede's Landing/River Tailgating.
Of course, Rams probably would want a shot at parking garages/revenues. That is fine, place garages between the new blvd and the backside of Pinnacle's casino. That specific area is going to be a dead zone for a long time any way you look at it. In addition, make Pinnacle's phase II & Bottle Works parking part of the deal and remove the Arch Grounds north parking garage to send a few cars their way (a little more parking revenue headed towards the Rams and Developers).
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It will be interesting to see if the Rams go big in their demands -- to what they could get in LA, so St. Louis can't possibly match and the Rams leave (ala Pujols). Or go reasonable and offer to kick in some of the cost so try to stay and entice tax funding to develop St. Louis into the kind of Football market it could be and should be -- like the Blues and Cardinals have done.
If they go middle ground, they run the risk that St. Louis will accept all their demands, or enough to win in arbitration, keeping them here for another 10 years and missing out on LA, and then pay for it by just taxing their customers with at ticket tax. I would think that is that last thing they would desire.
If they go middle ground, they run the risk that St. Louis will accept all their demands, or enough to win in arbitration, keeping them here for another 10 years and missing out on LA, and then pay for it by just taxing their customers with at ticket tax. I would think that is that last thing they would desire.
I'm kinda of surprise that some details or at least figures of the RAMS proposal hasn't gotten out one way or another.
What gets me is the bashing of CVC and absolutely no ill will towards the RAMS organization in how this is playing out. RAMS could have easily taken a different approach and use this opportunity to propose their own vision for the future and committment to the region. Instead, this is a convenient way to blame CVC if they don't get what they want and somehow Stan K works out a deal with the other NFL owners to get the RAMS back to LA. Throw in the Vikings and now you got a NFC/AFC punch with a market that is bigger than the two cities combined that lost their teams.
What gets me is the bashing of CVC and absolutely no ill will towards the RAMS organization in how this is playing out. RAMS could have easily taken a different approach and use this opportunity to propose their own vision for the future and committment to the region. Instead, this is a convenient way to blame CVC if they don't get what they want and somehow Stan K works out a deal with the other NFL owners to get the RAMS back to LA. Throw in the Vikings and now you got a NFC/AFC punch with a market that is bigger than the two cities combined that lost their teams.
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I think the expectations are different. The Rams are a private company and we assume they're out for themselves. The CVC is a public entity funded by all of us.
^But from a PR stand point, the Rams seem to continually alienate themselves from their fan base. Even though we have no legal right to the Rams business intentions. Its a bit arrogant to to say that we don't have a right to know your plans for the Dome when we provide your revenue stream and support your franchise year after year.
I would hope that its not intentional.
I have a hard time believing the Blues or the Cardinals would take the same approach.
I would hope that its not intentional.
I have a hard time believing the Blues or the Cardinals would take the same approach.
I guess that is what I don't understand, why the different expectations? Yes, RAMS are a private company but at the end of the day are still asking for the use of public funds to their benefit just as much as the CVC. The question is, how does their silence help them if are they asking for more? and would assume so.Alex Ihnen wrote:I think the expectations are different. The Rams are a private company and we assume they're out for themselves. The CVC is a public entity funded by all of us.
I'm surprised no one's talking about what's about to go down in Minnesota on Monday. Here are some tweets:
@PatKessler: MNGOP leaders abandon last minute #Vikings stadium plan.
@PatKessler: Spkr Zellers: "Good idea, great effort", but GOP won't pursue new #Vikings stadium plan.
@PatKessler: Spkr Zellers: "I will not apologize" for making small business my No. 1 priority.
@PatKessler: Zellers: Dayton has "disrespected or dismissed" every one of our top priorities.
@PatKessler: Zellers: #Vikings stadium is "absolutely and unequivocally" Dayton top priority.
@PatKessler: GOP will hold #Vikings stadium vote Monday.
@PatKessler: Zellers: "I don't know if the votes are there" for #Vikings stadium, but will hold a vote Monday.
@PatKessler: Zellers says that w/o a public referendum he cannot support #Vikings stadium bill.
@PatKessler: MN House will vote on #Vikings stadium bill that was negotiated by team, state, city.
@PatKessler: Zellers says not sure if enough votes for #Vikings even though DFL says it will provide half of the "yes" votes. #mnleg
@PatKessler: Senjem says he doesn't know if there are enough votes in Senate for #Vikings bill.
@PatKessler: Zellers: I will not stand in the way of any member- Dem or Repub- who wants to vote for #Vikings stadium.
@PatKessler: Zellers: "The fate of the stadium is now in the governor's hands." Says its up to Dayton to find enough votes to pass.
And a news article:
http://www.1500espn.com/sportswire/Vote ... 050312?t=2
Not a single GOP representative sat in to listen to stadium supporters' presentations today.
@PatKessler: MNGOP leaders abandon last minute #Vikings stadium plan.
@PatKessler: Spkr Zellers: "Good idea, great effort", but GOP won't pursue new #Vikings stadium plan.
@PatKessler: Spkr Zellers: "I will not apologize" for making small business my No. 1 priority.
@PatKessler: Zellers: Dayton has "disrespected or dismissed" every one of our top priorities.
@PatKessler: Zellers: #Vikings stadium is "absolutely and unequivocally" Dayton top priority.
@PatKessler: GOP will hold #Vikings stadium vote Monday.
@PatKessler: Zellers: "I don't know if the votes are there" for #Vikings stadium, but will hold a vote Monday.
@PatKessler: Zellers says that w/o a public referendum he cannot support #Vikings stadium bill.
@PatKessler: MN House will vote on #Vikings stadium bill that was negotiated by team, state, city.
@PatKessler: Zellers says not sure if enough votes for #Vikings even though DFL says it will provide half of the "yes" votes. #mnleg
@PatKessler: Senjem says he doesn't know if there are enough votes in Senate for #Vikings bill.
@PatKessler: Zellers: I will not stand in the way of any member- Dem or Repub- who wants to vote for #Vikings stadium.
@PatKessler: Zellers: "The fate of the stadium is now in the governor's hands." Says its up to Dayton to find enough votes to pass.
And a news article:
http://www.1500espn.com/sportswire/Vote ... 050312?t=2
Not a single GOP representative sat in to listen to stadium supporters' presentations today.
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Minnesota has somehow gotten this reputation of being a bastion of liberal thought, acceptance, etc. but after living here for 3+ years I am not sure there is a more backward hillbilly place in the country.
MO politics actually looks reasonable compared to the elected Minnesota leaders. Complete nut jobs.
MO politics actually looks reasonable compared to the elected Minnesota leaders. Complete nut jobs.
I'm not sure how that perception exists. Maybe it's just me, but personally whenever I think of Minnesota, I think of Michelle Bachmann.newstl2020 wrote:Minnesota has somehow gotten this reputation of being a bastion of liberal thought, acceptance, etc. but after living here for 3+ years I am not sure there is a more backward hillbilly place in the country.
MO politics actually looks reasonable compared to the elected Minnesota leaders. Complete nut jobs.
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^ And I think of Governor Ventura.
Anyway, I think the assumption has been that Minnesota will find a way to get this stadium deal done, regardless of the politics and today's vote. We'll see.
Anyway, I think the assumption has been that Minnesota will find a way to get this stadium deal done, regardless of the politics and today's vote. We'll see.
^I think they get it done to their rabid fan support. More so than our Rams, the Vikings have a significant loyal following. Or at least that's what I have been told.
Sounds good but still dependent on the courts making first move as reported by KWMU, Public Radio. In other words, shrewd move by a politician to get out in front of story for some face time.
http://www.news.stlpublicradio.org/
The public may finally see proposed changes for the Edward Jones Dome on May 14, according Missouri Attorney General Chris Koster.
In a release to the media this afternoon, Koster said that the state "intends to comply with an open records request regarding proposals made on upgrading the Edward Jones Dome" and "will provide the documents to the requesting party on Monday, May 14, unless a court rules that the records should remain closed."
http://www.news.stlpublicradio.org/
The public may finally see proposed changes for the Edward Jones Dome on May 14, according Missouri Attorney General Chris Koster.
In a release to the media this afternoon, Koster said that the state "intends to comply with an open records request regarding proposals made on upgrading the Edward Jones Dome" and "will provide the documents to the requesting party on Monday, May 14, unless a court rules that the records should remain closed."
Alex, your assumption is getting closer to reality. Minnesota politics being funny as it is includes that fact that the state house speaker pulled his support and none of the Republicans showed up for a committe hearing on the passed legislation. Yet they have the majority. go figure.Alex Ihnen wrote:^ And I think of Governor Ventura.
Anyway, I think the assumption has been that Minnesota will find a way to get this stadium deal done, regardless of the politics and today's vote. We'll see.
http://www.startribune.com/politics/sta ... 77305.html
Minnesota House passes Vikings stadium plan
Posted by: Jim Ragsdale
The Minnesota Vikings won a decisive and long-awaited political victory late Monday when the House passed a public subsidy package for a new stadium, sending the project marching toward final passage at the state Capitol.
The final vote came months of intense lobbying by Gov. Mark Dayton and the team, and produced a relatively easy 73-58 approval in the House.
The stadium project could go to the Senate for a vote as soon as today. After the House and Senate work through their differences, it could be ready for Dayton to sign into law by the end of the week.
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I think she's covered under "nut jobs".rawest1 wrote:I'm not sure how that perception exists. Maybe it's just me, but personally whenever I think of Minnesota, I think of Michelle Bachmann.newstl2020 wrote:Minnesota has somehow gotten this reputation of being a bastion of liberal thought, acceptance, etc. but after living here for 3+ years I am not sure there is a more backward hillbilly place in the country.
MO politics actually looks reasonable compared to the elected Minnesota leaders. Complete nut jobs.
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Just wanted to say that I find the rhetoric around stadium deals to be insane. There's a lot of politicians talking about how they accomplished something for the people and how a $1B stadium deal to support multi-millionaires demonstrates that the voice of the people has been listened to. I just find it ridiculous.
As long as a lot of the people want professional sports, government and business will conspire to deliver them, me thinks...And given the likely dearth of middle and working class jobs these stadiums generate over their life spans, you have to really question the real ROI cities and regions are getting for their collective tax buck...
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^That makes sense, but does not work because this way of thinking is fundamentally flawed when juxtaposed against reality.
Just like it is for the owners, having professional sports teams is about vanity for the cities that have them as well. Sports are an important piece of our nation's culture, and likewise cities want to be able to provide this "amenity" to their residents and businesses.
Like it or not, it just a very expensive version of a library, museum, zoo, etc. All of these things add to the draw of living in a certain place, just like sports teams. They provide a shared cultural identity for the city. Yeah, it sucks that sports evolved as single owner businesses as opposed to a shared owner model (ala the Packers), but that is the reality of the situation now and if you want to be in the game you have to play the game.
Just like it is for the owners, having professional sports teams is about vanity for the cities that have them as well. Sports are an important piece of our nation's culture, and likewise cities want to be able to provide this "amenity" to their residents and businesses.
Like it or not, it just a very expensive version of a library, museum, zoo, etc. All of these things add to the draw of living in a certain place, just like sports teams. They provide a shared cultural identity for the city. Yeah, it sucks that sports evolved as single owner businesses as opposed to a shared owner model (ala the Packers), but that is the reality of the situation now and if you want to be in the game you have to play the game.