urbanSTL

Just for fun...

moorlander wrote:Just for fun...

I would show most of Oklahoma in Cardinal country. They still play Cardinal games at night on the radio in Enid Oklahoma just like they did years ago when I was growing up there. The Rangers support is weak, since they've never won a World Series.

gary kreie wrote:

moorlander wrote:Just for fun...

I would show most of Oklahoma in Cardinal country. They still play Cardinal games at night on the radio in Enid Oklahoma just like they did years ago when I was growing up there. The Rangers support is weak, since they've never won a World Series.

Gave Cubs way too much credit, as an AL/Twins fan who would claim more territory south of the Twin Cities

great post,

the count wrote:

bonwich wrote:I'd say 500,000 more potential fans is more than mere "semantics."

The STL MSA has a population of 2.9 million. Denver MSA has 2.5. So they have 400,000 less people in the MSA.

You use CSA numbers. I bet you the Cardinals draw more fans from a larger geographical area than the Rockies do, regardless of CSA numbers. So yes, semantics.

You haven't answered my question about the Denver hub though. Do you see my point or do you just want to play numbers games?

Historically, 40% of Cardinals attendance comes from outside of the St. Louis MSA http://www.bizjournals.com/stlouis/news ... -314m.html and the Cardinals always draw near the top in attendance 3 million or so, so we're talking 1.2M+ out-of-towners. Its too bad we can't count them on the census.

http://thepigskindoctors.com/2010/05/5- ... s-angeles/

This article does not mention St. Louis as a possibility for relocation to LA. I still believe the Jags should be moved. It is a small market with poor support. The NFL never should have given a team to Jacksonville over St. Louis. Then we'd have the Stallions and LA would still have the Rams. I am against moving SF, San Diego or Buffalo. Oakland would be my second choice. They've been in LA before, compete with a team across the bay and have an old stadium. St. Louis should not be on the list of teams potentially moving to LA.

With regard to losing the team in 2015 because the dome is not in the top tier of NFL football stadiums:

1. I'd like to read the legal language associated with that clause. It sounds extremely subjective. I searched for rankings of NFL stadiums, and the EJ Dome ranked anywhere from 16th to 31st (last). But almost all of these rankings included categories that have nothing to do with the actual physical stadium.

SI.com used the following categories to rank stadiums: Affordability and Food, Tailgating, Team Quality, Atmosphere, and Accessibility. What do most of those categories have to do with the building? A high school venue would beat out any NFL stadium on these categories.

A clever lawyer might make this case to a jury: To be in the top tier, the fan physical environment and view from the stands are the only quantifiable measures. To be in the top tier for fan physical environment, you have to be able to control temperature, so it can only include domed stadiums or retractable roof stadiums. View from the seats can be quantified by average distance from the seats to the center of the field.

Of the 31 NFL stadiums, five are domed and four are retractable. That puts the dome in the top 1/3. The Ed is newer than 3 other domes -- New Orleans, Atlanta, and Minnesota. In terms of the average distance to the field, I couldn't find any stats, but the Ed seems to be about as intimate of a venue I know of with 66,000 seats.

The list that ranked the EJ Dome #16 said: "This is our favorite domed NFL stadium by
far with its small yet grand entrances at each of the four corners of the building and wide concourses
that widen at points where there are concession stands. " Not sure what that last part means.
http://www.thesportsroadtrip.com/nflfavorites.html

Skyboxes, bathrooms, accessibility to downtown parking, and all those counts are about the same or better than any other NFL venue. So from a quantifiable legal perspective, I could see someone convincing a jury that the EJ Dome is in the top 6 NFL venues right now.

2. If they wanted to open part of the roof, make it retractable, or put in translucent panels, it looks like it may be possible based on this photo during construction, but the roof may still have been resting on internal towers at this point and not the outer walls:


Transworld Dome, Saint-Louis, MO by Groupe Canam, on Flickr

3. If they choose to hang a big screen TV from the rafters the size of the wide screen video at the end of the stadium, they could do it in the EJ Dome, and the bottom edge would hang no lower than the one in Dallas. That could be a way reach the upper tier that possibly no other stadium, except Dallas, could match.

the count wrote:An observation: Is Bonwich AWOL?

Naw, I had leave. It's pretty easy to plot out my work (OK, "work") patterns based on when I post on this board. (Don't tell my bosses. )

Stl Beacon provided a link to story on LA being in talks with five different teams on move.

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2011/f ... thru.0465/

Not sure out of the five teams discussed who is willing to give up a majority stake. While I believe Stan K is a businessman first, I don't see him willing to give up any percentage of ownership and that might be for the better as far as Rams staying put.


LOS ANGELES (AP) - The head of the sports and entertainment firm that wants to build an NFL stadium in downtown Los Angeles has been in talks with officials from five pro football teams about the proposed venue, a company official said Friday.

Anschutz Entertainment Group President and CEO Tim Leiweke has spoken with representatives from the Minnesota Vikings, San Diego Chargers, Oakland Raiders, St. Louis Rams and Jacksonville Jaguars, company spokesman Michael Roth told The Associated Press.

Leiweke said all those teams are "in the mix,'' but conceded, "We're not packing any (moving) vans right now,'' according to the Orange County Register, which was first to report on the talks.

The most recent discussion took place a week ago, said Leiweke, who didn't specify which team those talks were with.

Leiweke also told the Register that AEG owner Philip Anschutz was prepared to acquire a majority stake in an NFL team that would play at the proposed venue and that the company was willing to pay for a team to get out of its current lease.


Read more: http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2011/f ... z1P2VEPo8p

I believe the Rams are BY FAR the LEAST likely to move of the five listed above.

timeforguinness wrote:

moorlander wrote:I believe the Rams are BY FAR the LEAST likely to move of the five listed above.

I would think the NFL would very much like to move Jacksonville over St. Louis.

Agree, Jaguars has such a small market area and having a tough time competing for dollars with the rabid college football fans in that part of the country. However, the big issue in favor of them moving is I think the ownership is willing give up their majority stake if price is right.

I think Vikings ownership is making a play to get a new stadium build. Not surprising considering that the Vikings metrodome lease expires after the 2011 season. Like Rams, I think Vikings ownership has no desire to give up a majority stake. What is the point of moving if someone else is going to make the dough?

Raiders and Chargers. Who knows? But I can see one of those two teams becoming the second LA team down the road as no one in either San Diego or the Bay area is going to build a new stadium outright. Heck, I can see 49'ers playing in their new stadium close to San Jose just in time for the first HSR train to leave San Jose for LA where the Raiders are playing.

I found this writeup from an online comments area describing the CVC's challenge:

There are 15 conditions that must be measured in order to determine if the building meets the criteria ranging from luxury suites to club seats, lighting to scoreboards, regular stadium seating, concession areas, common areas (such as concourses and restrooms), electronic and telecommunications equipment, the playing surface, and the locker and training rooms.

None of the provisions for suites, club seats, or stadium seats deals with quantities. The measurements have to do with whether the seats are cushioned or how they compare in width with other first-tier stadiums. Concourse widths are important as is lighting and scoreboard technology.

If the CVC, which runs the dome, were held to strict first-tier standards, how much would it take for the stadium to become a top eight facility by 2015, the deadline for the CVC to bring the venue up to standards. The figure is not known, but it is estimated to be tens of millions.

Twice postponed, the 2005 measurement for first-tier status never took place. The parties agreed instead to $30 million in improvements that included scoreboards.

The next scheduled deadline for first-tier status is March 1, 2015. But the process that could lead to the Rams getting out of the lease and potentially relocating starts much sooner - in just 2 1/2 years.

On or before Feb. 1, 2012, the CVC must deliver a preliminary plan for first-tier improvements. The overall plan must include a financial plan, as well as the source of those funds.

The Rams then have until March 1, 2012, to notify the CVC if they approve or disapprove of those plans.

At that point, the Rams have until May 1, 2012, to submit an alternate plan, with the CVC then given until June 1, 2012, to accept or reject the Rams' alternate plan.

If the CVC rejects the Rams' alternate plan, the matter goes to arbitration on June 15, 2012. The arbitration must be completed by the end of 2012.

If no agreement is reached, the stadium lease would then convert to a year-to-year lease, with the Rams free to move after the 2014 season.

As a charter Rams PSL holder since 1995, here are a few things I'd like CVC to consider to improve the dome if they can find the money:

Some things available in other NFL venues:
1. Replace all the seats with newer blue padded seats with options built-in for personal electronics for replays, TV, etc. Give the seats tiny headrests, (with built-in speakers to improve the sound system?).
2. Hang a video screen from the rafters. Based on the distance from the bottom of the screen in Dallas down to the field, CVC should be able to hang one that is about the height of the current video screens on each end of the field now.
3. Greatly improve the lighting inside to change the dreary feel. Make it as bright at it would be if it had an opening in the roof on a sunny day.
4. Improve the common areas -- add on, or make better use of the adjoining convention center on game day. Improve the food options, bar areas, and dining areas. Add a regular restaurant. Make holes in the South End common area wall in the lower bowl to let in light from the giant exit ramp windows.
5. Consider acquiring the parking lot South of the stadium for a Rams Fans Heritage park. It could include a bar-b-que "tailgating" area, statutes of HOF or Super Bowl winning Rams. Since weather is nice most of the Fall in St. Louis, it could include water features, a Giant statue of a Ram, beer garden, stage. It would be something outside of the Dome that says this is the Rams House.

And some things that would be new and unique in the NFL, not currently at any other venue:
1. Create a Sky bar at the upper press box level, which will include a glass walk and small seating area over the field on the roof I-beams. (where that guy drops the parachutes from for the Schnucks grocery cart catch challenge.) Include an outdoor area out the East side of the bar for great view of the Arch/river.
2. Create an outdoor dining area at the lower bowl common level -- possibly on a giant shelf over Broadway held up with cables attached to the building wall.
3. Commit to developing the Bottle District as a year round shopping, entertainment, and housing area. Include a Rams store. If not there, create a Rams store somewhere.
4. Use color changing LED lighting on aisles/rails for safety and atmosphere.