St. Louis Rams

roger wyoming II · PostAug 07, 2014#18462014-08-07T14:52+00:00

So where is the ideal location for placing a new stadium that could spur surrounding development? Here is a rendering of the new Vikings stadium that is anchoring a new Downtown East district that was largely a lot of surface lots, etc. at the edge of downtown.

I was pretty skeptical that NFL stadiums could do much for surrounding downtown development, but it actually looks like this might prove otherwise. Other cities are also seeing new infill development anchored by stadiums like Detroit with its new hockey arena and Pittsburgh with mixed-use construction between the NFL and MLB stadiums. But going back to the question, is there an ideal location for Greater Downtown for a new stadium for the Rams that could help drive new development in a few years (a time when even more of our historic stock should be spoken for and new construction may be needed)?

dbInSouthCity · PostAug 07, 2014#18472014-08-07T15:47+00:00

If the Rams stay, the new stadium will be in Fenton or St.Charles

dweebe · PostAug 07, 2014#18482014-08-07T15:47+00:00

roger wyoming II wrote:So where is the ideal location for placing a new stadium that could spur surrounding development? Here is a rendering of the new Vikings stadium that is anchoring a new Downtown East district that was largely a lot of surface lots, etc. at the edge of downtown.

I was pretty skeptical that NFL stadiums could do much for surrounding downtown development, but it actually looks like this might prove otherwise. Other cities are also seeing new infill development anchored by stadiums like Detroit with its new hockey arena and Pittsburgh with mixed-use construction between the NFL and MLB stadiums. But going back to the question, is there an ideal location for Greater Downtown for a new stadium for the Rams that could help drive new development in a few years (a time when even more of our historic stock should be spoken for and new construction may be needed)?

The Vikings are building pretty much on the spot of their old place. (That's why they're going to spend the next two years playing over at the University of Minnesota's.) Given the Twin City's economic health: I'm guessing this development would have be built anyway. And the other examples you're talking about are only in the planning/proposed stages. Plus they're coupled with new arenas.

Outside of Gillette Stadium and Patriot Place, I can't think of another NFL stadium that has actually spurred development.

I honestly don't think there's a place to build a new Rams stadium in St. Louis and hope it will be a magic bullet. I'm not trying to be negative nancy, but the Edward Jones Dome did little for downtown and even the super-busy Busch Stadium took 8 years to get the first phase of Ballpark Village going.

KerrytheKonstructor · PostAug 07, 2014#18492014-08-07T15:50+00:00

If it could be squeezed in north of Carr and south of Ashley, I think that could be great. Ideally, I think the dome update talks should have kept up. How 'bout Bloody Island? Looks pretty good to me. Stan should bite the bullet and just build it there with his own great fortune. LOL. Build it with the postcard views. I'm not sure what Illinois' plans are for Route 3 exactly but I like to think something could be worked out to the benefit of all.

dweebe · PostAug 07, 2014#18502014-08-07T15:53+00:00

dbInSouthCity wrote:If the Rams stay, the new stadium will be in Fenton or St.Charles/Earth City Area.

St. Charles? Has anyone out there ever seriously floated that idea? Plus, after the Family Arena I doubt they'll ever build a sports venue again out there.

PostAug 07, 2014#18512014-08-07T15:56+00:00

KerrytheKonstructor wrote:If it could be squeezed in north of Carr and south of Ashley, I think that could be great. Ideally, I think the dome update talks should have kept up. How 'bout Bloody Island? Looks pretty good to me. Stan should bite the bullet and just build it there with his own great fortune. LOL. Build it with the postcard views. I'm not sure what Illinois' plans are for Route 3 exactly but I like to think something could be worked out to the benefit of all.

If I had to pick a spot it would either be the area you've talked about, or the Koskiusko area between Soulard and the Mississippi River.

KerrytheKonstructor · PostAug 07, 2014#18522014-08-07T16:03+00:00

I'd like that area just as well. Particularly if we had a frequent Grant's Farm style tram setup from the Stadium Station for games/events.

dweebe · PostAug 07, 2014#18532014-08-07T16:08+00:00

KerrytheKonstructor wrote:I'd like that area just as well. Particularly if we had a frequent Grant's Farm style tram setup from the Stadium Station for games/events.

I also thought about my Koskiusko location dream and the lack of public transport. Run one set of buses/trams up 7th to Busch Stadium station and another up Wharf Street/Lenor K Sullivan to the Landing Station.

roger wyoming II · PostAug 07, 2014#18542014-08-07T16:24+00:00

dweebe wrote: Given the Twin City's economic health: I'm guessing this development would have be built anyway. And the other examples you're talking about are only in the planning/proposed stages....

I honestly don't think there's a place to build a new Rams stadium in St. Louis and hope it will be a magic bullet. I'm not trying to be negative nancy, but the Edward Jones Dome did little for downtown and even the super-busy Busch Stadium took 8 years to get the first phase of Ballpark Village going.

Detroit's will happen as the Ilitch family is commited to a quick pace... no junky Cordish to slow them down. And Pittsburgh's development is underway with office and entertainment leasing... its a bit like the successful Banks development in Cincy in between the two riverfront stadiums... again though it is hard to know how much can be attributed to good planning of the stadium projects or are simply taking advantage of favorable economic climate. Again in Detroit you have a committed billionaire who has decided to pull the trigger on developing his holdings while certainly Minneapolis, and arguably Cincy and Pitt, appear to have more greater downtown momentum.

Anyway, I generally share your skepticism and previously was more in the camp of perhaps putting it across the River (shout out to KtheK!) if it wouldn't fit in Bottle District, but I think I'm now more open to the idea that a well-designed stadium (which I think would include factors just not in architecture and siting but also programming, etc.) might possible spur surrounding development. If Kroenke decided to take the Ilitch route (leverage a publicly-subsidized stadium to commit to large-scale surrounding redevelopment) he certainly has the means and capacity.

PostAug 07, 2014#18552014-08-07T16:27+00:00

dbInSouthCity wrote:If the Rams stay, the new stadium will be in Fenton or St.Charles

wait... didn't you predict a 53% A7 win?

I'll take that bet!

PostAug 07, 2014#18562014-08-07T16:44+00:00

KerrytheKonstructor wrote:If it could be squeezed in north of Carr and south of Ashley, I think that could be great.

I can't remember the exact location, but there was a post on this thread a while back about a sports radio talker hearing that general area was rumored to be the leading contender.... the location seemed like a tight fit to me at the time and I'm also wary of the impact of a stadium here as there is potential for cool redevelopment which could easily be scuttled by a typical stadium plan.

I have another location bubbling in my head but I need to think it through some more.... its considerably west of the landing.

pat · PostAug 07, 2014#18572014-08-07T16:51+00:00

^I think the area was border by Broadway, Mullanphy, Cass, and 1st street.

roger wyoming II · PostAug 07, 2014#18582014-08-07T17:08+00:00

roger wyoming II wrote:Here is a new article out from NYT on the new Vikings stadium and related Downtown East project:
http://www.nytimes.com/2014/05/28/reale ... .html?_r=2

It gives a good overview of how that downtown is moving forward in a gear that is leaving ones like ours behind.

Officials broke ground this month on the city’s largest real estate project in two decades, a $400 million mixed-use development going up next to the new stadium.

The five-block project, called Downtown East, includes plans for two 18-story office towers for Wells Fargo, a six-level parking ramp, about 24,000 square feet of retail space, 193 apartments and a four-acre urban park near the stadium’s northwest corner....

Mayor Hodges said Downtown East was part of a broader citywide goal to double the number of downtown residents, now 35,000....

Ultimately, Downtown East is a chance to spur the development that the 31-year-old Metrodome failed to generate, said Michael Langley, chief executive of the Minneapolis St. Paul Regional Economic Development Partnership. “This is an opportunity for a huge do-over,” he said.

If we were capable of accomplishing something similar, where would be the best site?

Ha... this was from a while back on the thread.... I see I'm living a Groundhog Day!

PostAug 07, 2014#18592014-08-07T17:12+00:00

Thanks, pat.... you were right. I agree with dmelsh that this area seems way too small... actually a smaller footprint than the Dome much less the modern new stadiums in vogue now.

dmelsh wrote:More talk from Randy and 101 espn. Talks about location and money.

An idea has been set forth to offer Kroenke a parcel of land near the Dome and allow him to join with public entities to build there. An area just north of Laclede’s Landing, bounded by 1st street to the east, Broadway to the west, Mullanphy to the north and Cass Street to the south would easily provide enough space for a stadium, with room east of 1st to the riverfront and west of Broadway to I-70 for parking and development.
Area seems a little small to me.

http://www.101sports.com/2014/05/27/opt ... ium-issue/

stlien · PostAug 08, 2014#18602014-08-08T02:44+00:00

Pruitt Igoe?

roger wyoming II · PostAug 08, 2014#18612014-08-08T03:36+00:00

^ I've thought about that, too.... you could have a large stadium with room left over for decent infill facing Jefferson. Highway access would be decent but it wouldn't provide Metrolink access.

A site a bit to the south though has me really intrigued.... the stadium would be located in the super-annoying, anti-urban superblock between 20th & 23rd and MLK and Carr. Immediately to the east is the strange RV Park which would be ripe for infill "village" activity and there is plenty of other infill opportunity both in DW and in P-I. A 22nd Street interchange development and Wells-Fargo campus expansion could also feed into what could become a pretty bustling downtown edge.

Anyway, I feel strongly that one way or another we need to cull a large number of the massive distribution facilities that clog up more natural development between downtown and the near north... these need to be relocated if we're going to reach anywhere near our potential.

KerrytheKonstructor · PostAug 08, 2014#18622014-08-08T04:33+00:00

Lewis, Ashley, Carr, and 3rd is what I was specifically referring to. There is a railroad that would have to be moved and a substation as well. But with some awesome rehab/redev potential just north of the site and plenty of room for parking at the end of Cass, the Landing adjacent, etc., & etc., this is my premier spot.

dbInSouthCity · PostAug 08, 2014#18632014-08-08T14:45+00:00

Heard the radio ad on ESPN 101 from the Rams- but it was about their support for the CityRiverArch project and asking their fans to donate at least $50 to the project in exchange for a VIP event at Rams Park

PostAug 08, 2014#18642014-08-08T14:46+00:00

KerrytheKonstructor wrote:Lewis, Ashley, Carr, and 3rd is what I was specifically referring to. There is a railroad that would have to be moved and a substation as well. But with some awesome rehab/redev potential just north of the site and plenty of room for parking at the end of Cass, the Landing adjacent, etc., & etc., this is my premier spot.

moving a substation can cost between $50-100million

DogtownBnR · PostAug 08, 2014#18652014-08-08T15:10+00:00

I'd like to see if go on the riverfront, either north or south, preferably south, but less likely than north. I'd prefer without question, that the Rams get out of the Dome and build a venue. That way, the team is tied to St. Louis, via the venue. I do not want to deal with any lease or lease expiration down the road. Once the venue is Kroenke's, he'll own it and have to deal with it's upkeep, not the taxpayers.

jstriebel · PostAug 08, 2014#18662014-08-08T16:35+00:00

It will almost certainly happen that way. There is no chance the Rams will be in the Dome any longer than 10 more years, and that's only if talks and plans are in place to get a new stadium.

And because St. Louis isn't going to pay more than half (and probably not that) of the cost of the new stadium, ownership will almost certainly be given to Kroenke. He'll pay for most of it. The public will pay for some and get him the needed land.

That's not a sure thing of course, but I believe if they stay, that's how it will happen. And I'm very confident that they're staying.

roger wyoming II · PostAug 08, 2014#18672014-08-08T17:01+00:00

^ I'm not confident they'll stay if large subsidies are needed as state and county funding could be more problematic than in the past. I might support a bed and/or car rental tax but nothing that will put the city on the hook for millions for years and years.

KerrytheKonstructor · PostAug 08, 2014#18682014-08-08T18:13+00:00

I wouldn't mind some serious public money for infrastructure for the site I like. I just think the potential to improve on what we already have there is greater. It's a more "downtowny" experience than Kosciusko, which is super, undoubtedly cheaper, and would be a lot of fun also. It's only about 10-13 blocks to Stadium Station and we're talking full on outdoor football, so I guess we'd just have to toughen up. I'm not married to any idea. I'd walk the Eads in mid-December for some MNF!

DogtownBnR · PostAug 08, 2014#18692014-08-08T20:13+00:00

I'd like to see, as part of the deal, the stadium be made to house a soccer team as well. It would be in Kroenke's best interest, to have another tenant in the facility.

I think the fact that the CVC was willing to put up $200 million, the taxpayers should be willing to swallow $300 million for a new venue, that will hopefully, drastically improve a blighted or less that nice area near Downtown and maybe create new investment in that area. I'd love to see a stadium put an area like Old North, with a lot of potential, over the top. With the new bridge, it is possible.

jstriebel · PostAug 08, 2014#18702014-08-08T22:04+00:00

It shouldn't take a $500 million commitment from the public to get this done. $200-400 million (as you noted, the CVC at one point had half, though some of that may be committed elsewhere now) I would think would be the tops. Especially if land and ownership is part of the deal.

Kroenke will probably pay a big portion, and he'll get another 1/4-1/3 loaned to him via the NFL G4 stadium fund.

St. Louis Rams

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