^ I'm not quite sure how schools get fully evaluated, but looking at MAP scores, Shenandoah Elementary -- which is "fully accredited" -- seems to perform better than Buder Elementary -- which is "accredited with distinction." It also is interesting to take a look at the demographics -- Shenandoah in TGE is 92% black and Buder in Princeton Heights area is 2/3 white. Anyway, it certainly looks like Shenandoah is doing something right that more families in TGE should consider.
Very strange... when I posted ^, my prior post was erased. Anyway, here it is:
Saint Louis Public Schools have been touting the individual schools that have accredited ratings:
http://slps.schoolwires.net/Page/19892
7 schools have enough of a rating to qualify for "Accredited with Distinction" honors and another 13 for "Fully Accredited" status. Most are the gifted and magnet schools as one might imagine; however, I noticed that Buder Elementary in South Hampton and Bryan Hill Elementary in College Hill are regular schools in the Distinction category. Shenandoah Elementary in TGE is a neighborhood school with full accreditation as are Mason Elementary in Clifton Hts. and Lexington Elementary in Kingsway West.
Saint Louis Public Schools have been touting the individual schools that have accredited ratings:
http://slps.schoolwires.net/Page/19892
7 schools have enough of a rating to qualify for "Accredited with Distinction" honors and another 13 for "Fully Accredited" status. Most are the gifted and magnet schools as one might imagine; however, I noticed that Buder Elementary in South Hampton and Bryan Hill Elementary in College Hill are regular schools in the Distinction category. Shenandoah Elementary in TGE is a neighborhood school with full accreditation as are Mason Elementary in Clifton Hts. and Lexington Elementary in Kingsway West.
^ B/W isn't a very useful statistic. Free and reduced lunch is the stat you want to look at. Buder is 79% F/R lunch, and Shenandoah is 92% F/R lunch. Shenandoah does seem to have excellent performance. It would be interesting to know more about the family incomes within the F/R lunch students at Shenandoah. I'm guessing they lean toward the high end of that spectrum, where I can imagine having a little sense of security.
Free/reduced lunch eligibility guidelines:
Household Size Annually Monthly Weekly
1 $21,257 $1,772 $409
2 $28,694 $2,392 $552
3 $36,131 $3,011 $695
4 $43,568 $3,631 $838
5 $51,005 $4,251 $981
6 $58,442 $4,871 $1,124
7 $65,879 $5,490 $1,267
8 $73,316 $6,110 $1,410
https://www.ssdmo.org/public_notices/reduced_lunch.html
Free/reduced lunch eligibility guidelines:
Household Size Annually Monthly Weekly
1 $21,257 $1,772 $409
2 $28,694 $2,392 $552
3 $36,131 $3,011 $695
4 $43,568 $3,631 $838
5 $51,005 $4,251 $981
6 $58,442 $4,871 $1,124
7 $65,879 $5,490 $1,267
8 $73,316 $6,110 $1,410
https://www.ssdmo.org/public_notices/reduced_lunch.html
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Free and reduced lunch in theory makes sense as a metric; however, it is completely subjective and has no accuracy or statistical validity. Why? Because every year a parent gets 1 form per child to fill out. You can put whatever $ amount you want as your income. This is not cross checked or validated against a W2 or otherwise. I have 1st hand experience with this, where I made a clerical error on one of my kid's forms and we got the free and reduced benefit.onecity wrote:^ B/W isn't a very useful statistic. Free and reduced lunch is the stat you want to look at. Buder is 79% F/R lunch, and Shenandoah is 92% F/R lunch. Shenandoah does seem to have excellent performance. It would be interesting to know more about the family incomes within the F/R lunch students at Shenandoah. I'm guessing they lean toward the high end of that spectrum, where I can imagine having a little sense of security.
Free/reduced lunch eligibility guidelines:
Household Size Annually Monthly Weekly
1 $21,257 $1,772 $409
2 $28,694 $2,392 $552
3 $36,131 $3,011 $695
4 $43,568 $3,631 $838
5 $51,005 $4,251 $981
6 $58,442 $4,871 $1,124
7 $65,879 $5,490 $1,267
8 $73,316 $6,110 $1,410
https://www.ssdmo.org/public_notices/reduced_lunch.html
Even if there is some error in the accuracy of which families are counted as FRL, the amount of noise in the system is probably consistent enough to draw conclusions about the relationship between FRL and student performance.
MG - are you familiar with Shenandoah school - if so a question. Do the families in it appear to come mostly from deep poverty, or lower working class?
MG - are you familiar with Shenandoah school - if so a question. Do the families in it appear to come mostly from deep poverty, or lower working class?
I checked the moderator log and there's no sign of your post being erased. It's possible that there was a submission problem. In any case, the inconvenience of having to rewrite a post, especially a long one, is certainly frustrating.roger wyoming II wrote:Very strange... when I posted ^, my prior post was erased.
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Well, this is a step backwards:
http://www.stltoday.com/news/local/educ ... bb4d0.html
We need more of these community centers, not less. Sad to see they couldn't obtain any money to keep them open.
http://www.stltoday.com/news/local/educ ... bb4d0.html
We need more of these community centers, not less. Sad to see they couldn't obtain any money to keep them open.
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http://fox2now.com/2014/06/26/new-study ... ncreasing/
nice news wonder if the city is gaining people
nice news wonder if the city is gaining people
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Where's the money coming from for these billboards and broadcast media ads? Just curious. IMark Groth wrote:There are also billboards around town touting SLPS.
f things are getting better in SLPS as a whole, that's great, but I can drive by the nearest public school on my way to my children's Catholic school and see all kinds of room for improvement without even walking through the front door.
DeBaliviere, that's an interesting chart. I'd love to see some comparative statistics. While St. Louis is still in the top ten metro areas for private school enrollment, I bet that number was higher even five or ten years ago. Here in the city, many people who sent their children to Catholic and other parochial schools moved to charter schools when they opened. The outflow of students to charter schools was one of the primary reasons Immaculate Heart of Mary and Saint John the Baptist elementary schools closed last year.
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I bet you're right. I get the impression that more and more Catholics are choosing public schools these days.threeonefour wrote:DeBaliviere, that's an interesting chart. I'd love to see some comparative statistics. While St. Louis is still in the top ten metro areas for private school enrollment, I bet that number was higher even five or ten years ago. Here in the city, many people who sent their children to Catholic and other parochial schools moved to charter schools when they opened. The outflow of students to charter schools was one of the primary reasons Immaculate Heart of Mary and Saint John the Baptist elementary schools closed last year.
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That's the impression I get. I don't remember where I saw the statistics, but I know there was a fairly significant decline in the number of students who enrolled in Catholic schools over the last 15 years. In addition to the two schools I mentioned in south St. Louis, several other Catholic schools closed or merged with schools in neighboring parishes in south St. Louis, South County, and North County. On the flip side, some Catholic schools have benefited from an influx of enrollment. My children now attend school at St. Stephen Protomartyr in Holly Hills, and there are over 90 new students, mostly from SJTB and IHM.DeBaliviere wrote:I bet you're right. I get the impression that more and more Catholics are choosing public schools these days.
Those of us who choose private or parochial schools for our children have many reasons to make that personal choice. Besides, I still support public schools with my taxes.onecity wrote:We all pay taxes for public schools. So use them. Duh?
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Could you expand on this? If we're talking physical environment, I'd argue that many of the Catholic school buildings are in need of not just TLC, but substantial capital upgrades. I'm not arguing that all SLPS buildings are in great shape (because they are not and they haven't always been maintained well), but the bond issue passed a few years ago has really helped with upgrading building systems and deferred maintenance. Not to sound defensive, but we looked seriously at Catholic schools (and I enjoy making the annual fish fry tour) and I would rate the physical environment of my daughter's SLPS school (Mallinckrodt) ahead of or equal to any of the South City Catholic elementary schools.threeonefour wrote:I can drive by the nearest public school on my way to my children's Catholic school and see all kinds of room for improvement without even walking through the front door.
Do you also breathe and eat?Besides, I still support public schools with my taxes.
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I don't disagree. Based on what I know about Mallinckrodt, it seems like a great school to me. Also, there are definitely some Catholic schools in need of TLC at best, and at worst, several of them really need significant capital upgrades.south compton wrote:Could you expand on this? If we're talking physical environment, I'd argue that many of the Catholic school buildings are in need of not just TLC, but substantial capital upgrades. I'm not arguing that all SLPS buildings are in great shape (because they are not and they haven't always been maintained well), but the bond issue passed a few years ago has really helped with upgrading building systems and deferred maintenance. Not to sound defensive, but we looked seriously at Catholic schools (and I enjoy making the annual fish fry tour) and I would rate the physical environment of my daughter's SLPS school (Mallinckrodt) ahead of or equal to any of the South City Catholic elementary schools.threeonefour wrote:I can drive by the nearest public school on my way to my children's Catholic school and see all kinds of room for improvement without even walking through the front door.
I live near Woodward School, and I think there's much room for improvement there. The building itself looks fine from the outside, as it is a beautiful building with traditional architecture. (I'm not sure if it's one of the Ittner-designed schools, but if not, it is quite similar.) A nice new playground was added a couple of years ago, but the large asphalt play area is crumbling terribly, and the fence that surrounds has peeling paint and a lot of rust. I'm sure the city would love to fine me if my property had similar issues. I just feel like those children deserve better, and I know there are schools around the city where physical conditions are even worse.
I'd be happy to discuss Catholic schools in a separate thread so I don't hijack this one. I know first-hand that conditions and the quality of education vary widely among them as well. FWIW, the #1 reason I made that choice was because I wanted my children to have a faith-based education, so public and charter schools were never really in play for me. Still, as a city resident who wants to see education improve for all city children, I would be interested to learn more about public schools. I realize I can't make a solid judgment on their conditions based on superficial observations, so I will do more research.
You said:onecity wrote:Do you also breathe and eat?Besides, I still support public schools with my taxes.
My point is where one sends their children to school is a personal choice. We all pay for public schools with our taxes, but there are great public, private, parochial, and charter options...all within the City of St. Louis.We all pay taxes for public schools. So use them. Duh?
In that respect, city residents have more choices than people do in some area suburban communities. I think a wide variety of options is a good thing. Do you disagree for some reason?
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It is getting close to application time for SLPS magnet schools, some which have Pre-K as early as 3 yr. olds. I highly recommend parents take a look as there are decent options.
btw, Stix ECC has implemented a gifted Kindergarten class this year...not sure about the peer Wilkinson ECC. Students will advance to Kennard after 2nd Grade.
btw, Stix ECC has implemented a gifted Kindergarten class this year...not sure about the peer Wilkinson ECC. Students will advance to Kennard after 2nd Grade.
There may be many ways for children to receive an education in STL, but labelling them as "choices" is disingenuous at best.
As a middle class parent that cares intensely about public schools, it damages my child's ability to receive an education in those public schools if the majority of the middle class in STL is not using them. Non-use of those schools by stable middle class families is just as harmful as the overrepresentation of families with hardcore poverty issues. It's on nonusers to step up and be real participants, not just taxpaying "supporters", in other words. That is the magic formula for fixing the city's public schools. You want your city to be more attractive to outsiders and actually grow? Use its schools, and prove it's a place middle class people with kids plural don't have to spend half an income on K-12 tuition or be at the mercy of unpredictable and arcane K-12 admissions policies or experimental charters. K-12.
As a middle class parent that cares intensely about public schools, it damages my child's ability to receive an education in those public schools if the majority of the middle class in STL is not using them. Non-use of those schools by stable middle class families is just as harmful as the overrepresentation of families with hardcore poverty issues. It's on nonusers to step up and be real participants, not just taxpaying "supporters", in other words. That is the magic formula for fixing the city's public schools. You want your city to be more attractive to outsiders and actually grow? Use its schools, and prove it's a place middle class people with kids plural don't have to spend half an income on K-12 tuition or be at the mercy of unpredictable and arcane K-12 admissions policies or experimental charters. K-12.
Competition is not always a good thing. Where there is competition, money becomes the most important factor, and I think we don't have to look far in the post-industrial mess of St. Louis to see that competition and "choice" is not always a net positive for everyone, especially the poor. Do you really want to proliferate choice into primary and secondary education, where the only people with real choice are those that can afford to move, pay for private education, or are well informed or connected enough to to secure a spot for their children in a charter school?threeonefour wrote: My point is where one sends their children to school is a personal choice. We all pay for public schools with our taxes, but there are great public, private, parochial, and charter options...all within the City of St. Louis.
In that respect, city residents have more choices than people do in some area suburban communities. I think a wide variety of options is a good thing. Do you disagree for some reason?
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Charter schools have no tuition. Most of them are non-zip code based so you can come from anywhere in the city to attend. Even a zip code based charter like city garden montessori has PLENTY of low income people living in that zip code. Have you ever been to Botanical Heights/McKree Town? Furthermore, connections are great and can always help get you what and where you need to be. However, "connections" are not necessary to enroll in schools.Do you really want to proliferate choice into primary and secondary education, where the only people with real choice are those that can afford to move, pay for private education, or are well informed or connected enough to to secure a spot for their children in a charter school?
But the real reason I've replied to this post is to ask for concrete information and examples of people who've been stonewalled or refused access to any school because of their income level. I would like to talk to them to shed some light on this situation if it is true.
And lastly, I'd say I live in a mixed income part of the city and have talked to many parents and neighbors around here who would likely be considered lower income and none of them are without a smart phone. Internet access has allowed even the poorest to become connected...even in places like India...everyone has a phone.
I don't buy that the "priviliged" or "middle class" are the only ones with a shot at decent public, charter, magnet or even private schools for that matter. But, I want to hear your stories if you have them. PM me please.
So, people on here complain about how fragmentation screws up the county. Well, how about the ways fragmentation - into magnets, various charters, private schools, public schools, different districts or catchment zones whose boundaries don't necessarily reflect town or neighborhood boundaries, and all of which have different rules, timelines, and funding structures. Why is fragmentation big and bad when it comes to the county, but then it's called "choice" when it comes to schools, despite the equally obvious and bad negative effects? Evidence: this thread, and the fact that this schools are endlessly cited as a reason not to move to STL. Please answer that question, someone.Charter schools have no tuition. Most of them are non-zip code based so you can come from anywhere in the city to attend. Even a zip code based charter like city garden montessori has PLENTY of low income people living in that zip code. Have you ever been to Botanical Heights/McKree Town? Furthermore, connections are great and can always help get you what and where you need to be. However, "connections" are not necessary to enroll in schools.
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My two cents: we are bleeding middle and upper middle class families (of all races) to the county because of 2 things: crime and schools. I've had friends, neighbors, colleagues and acquaintances from all walks of life leave the city when junior gets to be school aged. Now that there are options, we have a better chance at keeping a tax base and dedicated, loving parents in St. Louis. I know for a fact that at least a few families would be headed for the burbs if it had not been for Grand Center Arts Academy, City Garden Montessori, Gateway, etc.
How do you fix our schools and crime? More police and school resources....from tax dollars. Those tax dollars go away when someone moves to Maplewood or Clayton.
I am for sure in the camp of strong public schools; I get those arguments. And I'm putting my money where my mouth is on that one. However, the SLPS is trying to overcome generations of negativity and abandonment. I think Charters are keeping families in the city who have become disenfranchised (for right or wrong) with the SLPS. While SLPS builds its reputation and we get the GOOD word out a bit more, the haterz will have to temper their opinions. The haterz are a very loud voice and the are in the real estate business and other places, guiding new people to the region to the burbs and trashing our schools as part of their argument to boost home prices there and not here.
It is not perfect, but I think Charters can be a stop gap measure to slow the bleeding of money and people to the county.
How do you fix our schools and crime? More police and school resources....from tax dollars. Those tax dollars go away when someone moves to Maplewood or Clayton.
I am for sure in the camp of strong public schools; I get those arguments. And I'm putting my money where my mouth is on that one. However, the SLPS is trying to overcome generations of negativity and abandonment. I think Charters are keeping families in the city who have become disenfranchised (for right or wrong) with the SLPS. While SLPS builds its reputation and we get the GOOD word out a bit more, the haterz will have to temper their opinions. The haterz are a very loud voice and the are in the real estate business and other places, guiding new people to the region to the burbs and trashing our schools as part of their argument to boost home prices there and not here.
It is not perfect, but I think Charters can be a stop gap measure to slow the bleeding of money and people to the county.
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My vague understanding is that charters vs. standard schools is more a political/labor/etc. issue more than an education issue. I don't think it's unfair to say that SLPS are pretty close to bottoming out, and at that point I'm happy to see anyone try anything, really. I hope that some of the more successful experiments can be built into a more unified system once things are more stable citywide.
And however it's done, I really really like the idea of having several different options, different approaches to education, different subject matter, etc. available to the potentially 50,000 kids that could be in the system. A one size fits all approach doesn't really work anywhere. Being such a large district gives us a unique opportunity to experiment with a lot of different models at once.
And however it's done, I really really like the idea of having several different options, different approaches to education, different subject matter, etc. available to the potentially 50,000 kids that could be in the system. A one size fits all approach doesn't really work anywhere. Being such a large district gives us a unique opportunity to experiment with a lot of different models at once.