For more reference. Most mid sized cities are cut back to 1x a day on a 200 for winter. I was hoping they were going to scrap the 200s.. I guess notaddxb2 wrote: ↑May 28, 2023As reported by jshank on airliners, Air Canada cuts back to 1x CRJ200 for STL to Toronto. KC to Toronto cut completely according to KCRag.
So bizarre that the fourth largest city on our continent has such limited direct service to most of the Midwest.
June Frequencies
Flights per week
2023 (2022) 2019
Southwest 756 (702) 813
AA 185 (240) 257
Delta 151 (147) 204
United 136 (129) 203
Frontier 42 (36) 38
Allegiant 29 (35) 32
Alaska 20 (10) 21
Spirit 14 (14) XX
Air Canada 14 (14) 21
Total STL 1415 (1391) 1729
Seats on Monday
2023 seats (vs 2022) vs 2019
AA 3630 (-11.51%) -16.99%
Delta 2896 (+7.66%) -11.25%
United 1902 (+55.9%) -4.33%
Notes:
Southwest - Montego Bay/Myrtle Beach/Portland/Punta Cana/Salt Lake City/Seattle all back
Delta - all flights mainline except LGA
AA - Boston only route all RJ, Six routes all mainline, 3 mixed
United - BIG jump in seats. 9 mainlines total a day. Denver all mainline. Only DC has none.
Allegiant - Myrtle Beach back
International flights a week by destination
Cancun - 15
Toronto - 14
Punta Cana - 5
Montego Bay - 5
Frankfurt - 3
San Juan - 1 (not international but of note)
Flights per week
2023 (2022) 2019
Southwest 756 (702) 813
AA 185 (240) 257
Delta 151 (147) 204
United 136 (129) 203
Frontier 42 (36) 38
Allegiant 29 (35) 32
Alaska 20 (10) 21
Spirit 14 (14) XX
Air Canada 14 (14) 21
Total STL 1415 (1391) 1729
Seats on Monday
2023 seats (vs 2022) vs 2019
AA 3630 (-11.51%) -16.99%
Delta 2896 (+7.66%) -11.25%
United 1902 (+55.9%) -4.33%
Notes:
Southwest - Montego Bay/Myrtle Beach/Portland/Punta Cana/Salt Lake City/Seattle all back
Delta - all flights mainline except LGA
AA - Boston only route all RJ, Six routes all mainline, 3 mixed
United - BIG jump in seats. 9 mainlines total a day. Denver all mainline. Only DC has none.
Allegiant - Myrtle Beach back
International flights a week by destination
Cancun - 15
Toronto - 14
Punta Cana - 5
Montego Bay - 5
Frankfurt - 3
San Juan - 1 (not international but of note)
Key lines from biz journal article.
She said "we believe" United and Southwest will reinstate nonstops to SFO, "maybe not yet this year, but in 2024."
Key to a return of the San Francisco service will be an increase in available airplanes and pilot time, Hamm-Niebruegge said. United, for example, said last month that it hired 7,000 new workers in the first four months of this year and plans to hit 15,000 new hires by year end.
Lufthansa, meanwhile, "would have loved to go to five days" this summer for its St. Louis to Frankfurt, Germany, nonstop flight, Hamm-Niebruegge said, but has also been hampered by staffing shortages. It currently operates the route three days a week.
"We think that, too, is forthcoming in 2024, though we don't have confirmation of that," she said. The airline has reported heavy load factors for the flight, something Lambert is "very happy" with, she added.
Lambert has said that this year, it could come within 5% of 2019's pre-pandemic total of nearly 16 million passengers.
https://www.bizjournals.com/stlouis/new ... ce=twitter
She said "we believe" United and Southwest will reinstate nonstops to SFO, "maybe not yet this year, but in 2024."
Key to a return of the San Francisco service will be an increase in available airplanes and pilot time, Hamm-Niebruegge said. United, for example, said last month that it hired 7,000 new workers in the first four months of this year and plans to hit 15,000 new hires by year end.
Lufthansa, meanwhile, "would have loved to go to five days" this summer for its St. Louis to Frankfurt, Germany, nonstop flight, Hamm-Niebruegge said, but has also been hampered by staffing shortages. It currently operates the route three days a week.
"We think that, too, is forthcoming in 2024, though we don't have confirmation of that," she said. The airline has reported heavy load factors for the flight, something Lambert is "very happy" with, she added.
Lambert has said that this year, it could come within 5% of 2019's pre-pandemic total of nearly 16 million passengers.
https://www.bizjournals.com/stlouis/new ... ce=twitter
"With many of Lufthansa's flights sold out, the airport continues to see the demand being met. Officials said that the airline averaged 94% capacity on its STL flights this last year, according to FOX 2."
94% ... no wonder they want to go to 5 days. With that number, more service is coming for sure, on Lufthansa or another added international carrier.
94% ... no wonder they want to go to 5 days. With that number, more service is coming for sure, on Lufthansa or another added international carrier.
- 6,123
^More flights or possibly a larger aircraft. Glad to see either or both.
I’m still trying to find out where they get their load numbers. Almost every month they say something at a commission meeting or in the news the number they list is higher than what comes out in the statistics. I have them at 88% for last year with just December to go. I don’t even have one month above 92%. Even if December is 100% it won’t get to probably higher than 90%matguy70 wrote: ↑Jun 03, 2023"With many of Lufthansa's flights sold out, the airport continues to see the demand being met. Officials said that the airline averaged 94% capacity on its STL flights this last year, according to FOX 2."
94% ... no wonder they want to go to 5 days. With that number, more service is coming for sure, on Lufthansa or another added international carrier.
That said 88% is really really good. I just would like to know the disconnect in numbers.
Report % Sold but Feds report % Traveled?jshank83 wrote:I’m still trying to find out where they get their load numbers. Almost every month they say something at a commission meeting or in the news the number they list is higher than what comes out in the statistics. I have them at 88% for last year with just December to go. I don’t even have one month above 92%. Even if December is 100% it won’t get to probably higher than 90%matguy70 wrote: ↑Jun 03, 2023"With many of Lufthansa's flights sold out, the airport continues to see the demand being met. Officials said that the airline averaged 94% capacity on its STL flights this last year, according to FOX 2."
94% ... no wonder they want to go to 5 days. With that number, more service is coming for sure, on Lufthansa or another added international carrier.
That said 88% is really really good. I just would like to know the disconnect in numbers.
Hadn’t considered that. But that would mean they average a dozen tickets sold a flight people no show for. That seems high but I really have no clue.ldai_phs wrote: ↑Jun 03, 2023Report % Sold but Feds report % Traveled?jshank83 wrote:I’m still trying to find out where they get their load numbers. Almost every month they say something at a commission meeting or in the news the number they list is higher than what comes out in the statistics. I have them at 88% for last year with just December to go. I don’t even have one month above 92%. Even if December is 100% it won’t get to probably higher than 90%matguy70 wrote: ↑Jun 03, 2023"With many of Lufthansa's flights sold out, the airport continues to see the demand being met. Officials said that the airline averaged 94% capacity on its STL flights this last year, according to FOX 2."
94% ... no wonder they want to go to 5 days. With that number, more service is coming for sure, on Lufthansa or another added international carrier.
That said 88% is really really good. I just would like to know the disconnect in numbers.
Other thing I thought of was non-revs but I would think they would still show up in the load numbers from DOT.
I’d be curious to get a peek into all the numbers airlines look at and analyze. Outside of load there’s revenue maximization (made that up ). You have business class, last minute purchases, cargo. All those things in the right combination, I imagine, could cause a 75% full flight to generate more revenue than a 90% full flight.
Started to look ahead to July a bit. Southwest added a weekday Orlando/San Diego and a Saturday KC. That means starting July 11th, WN the exact amount of flights a week as 2019. First time back to 2019 for them.
813 a week.
813 a week.
Airport Commision meeting today:
Parking fee increases passed. Go into effect in August.
St. Louis Country School district lease (in D) extended.
Special closed session (dealing with real estate)
LH outbound on 1 year anniversary flight was oversold by one. Sent the oversold person thru ORD.
Summer loads looking to be 98%
Checkpoints were 2.2% down for May vs 2019
Checkpoints first 6 days of June are above June 2019
Land usage. West side of 270. 200 or 300 acres is now available to put out to development now that debt load is lower. RFP out this fall.
Parking fee increases passed. Go into effect in August.
St. Louis Country School district lease (in D) extended.
Special closed session (dealing with real estate)
LH outbound on 1 year anniversary flight was oversold by one. Sent the oversold person thru ORD.
Summer loads looking to be 98%
Checkpoints were 2.2% down for May vs 2019
Checkpoints first 6 days of June are above June 2019
Land usage. West side of 270. 200 or 300 acres is now available to put out to development now that debt load is lower. RFP out this fall.
Besting a dead horse that’s nothing but glue at this point…
I’d like to see BA enter with a London flight. I’ve rambled on about the reasons why but if….
…the incentives end and for whatever reason outside of our control, LH doesn’t want to continue service…someone like BA might say ‘hey, they got sometimes there!’ then we can find a successor and maintain Europe flights without lapse.
That’s worst case scenario. Best caee is Frankfurt 5x and London 3x.
I’d like to see BA enter with a London flight. I’ve rambled on about the reasons why but if….
…the incentives end and for whatever reason outside of our control, LH doesn’t want to continue service…someone like BA might say ‘hey, they got sometimes there!’ then we can find a successor and maintain Europe flights without lapse.
That’s worst case scenario. Best caee is Frankfurt 5x and London 3x.
- 1,792
So curious, if load factors are that high on Lufthansa flights, does that mean it is basically costing the region nothing additional? My understanding is most of the offers to attract international flights are about guaranteeing a certain revenue stream, but in this case they should be generating solid profitable returns on their own right?
- 1,615
Yes correct. the incentive is a revenue floor, generally to get the route established. Never really needed, apparently. LH should be very pleased with the profitability of the route.
I could have it all wrong…
I thought LH will receive $5M if they maintain service for three years with waived landing fees. After three years, LH’s obligation to STL is technically finished, like a contract and will need to be renegotiated. If that goes sideways, they could take the $5M and walk.
Not that they would considering the popularity but who knows, anything can happen…merger, bankruptcy, shift in focus…
I thought LH will receive $5M if they maintain service for three years with waived landing fees. After three years, LH’s obligation to STL is technically finished, like a contract and will need to be renegotiated. If that goes sideways, they could take the $5M and walk.
Not that they would considering the popularity but who knows, anything can happen…merger, bankruptcy, shift in focus…
- 9,566
GSL CEO Jason Hall was invited to give a keynote at the Lufthansa officers and executives meeting that happened this week, the keynote included a video from various St.Louisians (including me!). Not sure when GSL will post the video
Is this what you were hinting at? Keynote at LH headquarters? That’s pretty impressive.
- 1,792
Well if that how it is structured this will have been very lucrative for them. A little frustrating that that is what it takes to get someone to give STL a chance. The 5 million sweetener seems excessive given how successful its been. Obviously that's all hindsight and maybe its part of playing the game but there still seems to be some fundamental flaw in this system that that is what it takes.shadrach wrote: ↑Jun 08, 2023I could have it all wrong…
I thought LH will receive $5M if they maintain service for three years with waived landing fees. After three years, LH’s obligation to STL is technically finished, like a contract and will need to be renegotiated. If that goes sideways, they could take the $5M and walk.
Not that they would considering the popularity but who knows, anything can happen…merger, bankruptcy, shift in focus…
I’m not sure if the structure is actually as I understand it (sums up my life). Lambert should roll the $5M owed to LH into an account to cover future landing fees.
That aside, almost all TATL flights in secondary markets are subsidized. Cincy paid about the same for BA, I forget how much Cleveland shoveled at Aer Lingus. I think Pittsburgh paid a good amount too years ago.
That aside, almost all TATL flights in secondary markets are subsidized. Cincy paid about the same for BA, I forget how much Cleveland shoveled at Aer Lingus. I think Pittsburgh paid a good amount too years ago.
$2.5 million came from the St. Louis County PA and $2.5 million came from Greater St. Louis. In addition, Lambert waived 18 months of landing fees which would total out to about $520,000.
I don't really know how it's structured though. I thought a lot of the $5 million was suppose to go to marketing and promotion over the course of them serving STL. I can't seem to find that anywhere though.
I don't really know how it's structured though. I thought a lot of the $5 million was suppose to go to marketing and promotion over the course of them serving STL. I can't seem to find that anywhere though.
- 1,615
Found some details, From bizjournal:
[begin]
Some of St. Louis' largest corporations collectively committed to invest $2.5 million over two years to attract the flight, according to a spokesman for Greater St. Louis Inc., the regional economic development agency that also contributed money. Businesses that committed funding include Centene Corp., Emerson Electric, Enterprise Holdings, Hermann Companies, Hunter Engineering, Nestle Purina PetCare and the William T. Kemper Foundation.
Lambert, in line with many other airports, has long offered to pay landing fees for significant new service, and it will do so for Lufthansa for two years. Hamm-Niebruegge said that would amount to about $2,235 per flight, or nearly $700,000 total.
And the St. Louis County Port Authority, a government entity that gets its funding from lease payments tied to the River City Casino, will kick in $2.5 million over two years for marketing, according to a person familiar with the matter. It previously subsidized WOW air's Lambert flight to the Icelandic city of Reykjavik, which ended in 2019.
The $2.5 million from the business community, however, comes with conditions. The airline only receives the incentives if it operates a required number of flights and meets other performance criteria, according to the Greater St. Louis spokesman. He did not disclose details of those conditions. [/end]
[begin]
Some of St. Louis' largest corporations collectively committed to invest $2.5 million over two years to attract the flight, according to a spokesman for Greater St. Louis Inc., the regional economic development agency that also contributed money. Businesses that committed funding include Centene Corp., Emerson Electric, Enterprise Holdings, Hermann Companies, Hunter Engineering, Nestle Purina PetCare and the William T. Kemper Foundation.
Lambert, in line with many other airports, has long offered to pay landing fees for significant new service, and it will do so for Lufthansa for two years. Hamm-Niebruegge said that would amount to about $2,235 per flight, or nearly $700,000 total.
And the St. Louis County Port Authority, a government entity that gets its funding from lease payments tied to the River City Casino, will kick in $2.5 million over two years for marketing, according to a person familiar with the matter. It previously subsidized WOW air's Lambert flight to the Icelandic city of Reykjavik, which ended in 2019.
The $2.5 million from the business community, however, comes with conditions. The airline only receives the incentives if it operates a required number of flights and meets other performance criteria, according to the Greater St. Louis spokesman. He did not disclose details of those conditions. [/end]
CVG CLE PIT are each paying 10 mil+. Looking back I think 5 mil is a bargain. I don't think anyone is going to get anything for less than 10 mil now on anything major, especially if they don't have a current flight to prove the market.shadrach wrote: ↑Jun 08, 2023I’m not sure if the structure is actually as I understand it (sums up my life). Lambert should roll the $5M owed to LH into an account to cover future landing fees.
That aside, almost all TATL flights in secondary markets are subsidized. Cincy paid about the same for BA, I forget how much Cleveland shoveled at Aer Lingus. I think Pittsburgh paid a good amount too years ago.
December International Loads
Southwest Cancun 91%
Lufthansa 85% (outbound 91.5%)
AA Cancun 80.5%
Frontier Cancun 78%
Frontier Punta Cana 75%
Air Canada Toronto 72.5%
Full year 2022
Southwest Cancun 90.5%
Southwest Montego Bay 88.5%
Lufthansa 87.5%
Air Canada Toronto 80%
AA Cancun 79%
Frontier Cancun 76.25%
Frontier Punta Cana 73%
Spirit Cancun 58%
Apple/Viva Puerto Vallarta 68.5%
Apple/Viva Huatulco 55%
Apple/Viva Cabo 55%
A few notes:
Shocked Lufthansa got that good a number in December.
All routes are back this year except Spirit and the Apple routes.
New routes this year - Southwest to Punta Cana and Frontier to Montego Bay
Southwest Cancun 91%
Lufthansa 85% (outbound 91.5%)
AA Cancun 80.5%
Frontier Cancun 78%
Frontier Punta Cana 75%
Air Canada Toronto 72.5%
Full year 2022
Southwest Cancun 90.5%
Southwest Montego Bay 88.5%
Lufthansa 87.5%
Air Canada Toronto 80%
AA Cancun 79%
Frontier Cancun 76.25%
Frontier Punta Cana 73%
Spirit Cancun 58%
Apple/Viva Puerto Vallarta 68.5%
Apple/Viva Huatulco 55%
Apple/Viva Cabo 55%
A few notes:
Shocked Lufthansa got that good a number in December.
All routes are back this year except Spirit and the Apple routes.
New routes this year - Southwest to Punta Cana and Frontier to Montego Bay
Southwest released the Nov/Dec schedule today
Up a few flights a day over 2019. Up about 12% vs last year
Montego Bay is running during the holiday weeks, which is new from years past.
Flights per day
......2023.. 2022.. 2019
Fri.. 114.. 102.. 112
Sat.. 85.. 87.. 66
Sun.. 114..102.. 117
Numbers for non holiday weeks.
Up a few flights a day over 2019. Up about 12% vs last year
Montego Bay is running during the holiday weeks, which is new from years past.
Flights per day
......2023.. 2022.. 2019
Fri.. 114.. 102.. 112
Sat.. 85.. 87.. 66
Sun.. 114..102.. 117
Numbers for non holiday weeks.
| Fri | Sat | Sun | |||||
| Atlanta GA (ATL) | 5 | 2 | 5 | ||||
| Austin TX (AUS) | 2 | 2 | 2 | ||||
| Baltimore MD (BWI) | 3 | 3 | 3 | ||||
| Boston MA (BOS) | 2 | 2 | 2 | ||||
| Cancun MX (CUN) | 1 | 1 | 1 | ||||
| Charleston SC (CHS) | |||||||
| Charlotte NC (CLT) | 1 | 1 | 1 | ||||
| Chicago IL (MDW) | 6 | 4 | 6 | ||||
| Cleveland OH (CLE) | 2 | 1 | 2 | ||||
| Columbus OH (CMH) | 2 | 1 | 2 | ||||
| Dallas TX (DAL) | 6 | 4 | 6 | ||||
| Denver CO (DEN) | 7 | 5 | 7 | ||||
| Des Moines IA (DSM) | 2 | 1 | 2 | ||||
| Destin FL (VPS) | |||||||
| Detroit MI (DTW) | 2 | 1 | 2 | ||||
| Ft. Lauderdale FL (FLL) | 2 | 3 | 2 | ||||
| Ft. Myers FL (RSW) | 2 | 2 | 2 | ||||
| Hartford, CT (BDL) | |||||||
| Houston TX (HOU) | 4 | 3 | 4 | ||||
| Jacksonville FL (JAX) | 1 | 0 | 1 | ||||
| Kansas City MO (MCI) | 3 | 2 | 3 | ||||
| Las Vegas NV (LAS) | 5 | 4 | 5 | ||||
| Little Rock AR (LIT) | 2 | 1 | 2 | ||||
| Long Beach CA (LGB) | 1 | 1 | 1 | ||||
| Los Angeles CA (LAX) | 3 | 2 | 3 | ||||
| Miami FL (MIA) | 1 | 2 | 1 | ||||
| Milwaukee WI (MKE) | 2 | 1 | 2 | ||||
| Minneapolis MN (MSP) | 2 | 1 | 2 | ||||
| Montego Bay JAM (MBJ) | |||||||
| Myrtle Beach SC (MYR) | |||||||
| Nashville TN (BNA) | 4 | 3 | 4 | ||||
| New Orleans LA (MSY) | 2 | 1 | 2 | ||||
| New York NY (LGA) | 5 | 2 | 5 | ||||
| Oakland CA (OAK) | 1 | 0 | 1 | ||||
| Oklahoma City OK (OKC) | 2 | 1 | 2 | ||||
| Omaha NE (OMA) | 2 | 2 | 2 | ||||
| Orange County CA (SNA) | |||||||
| Orlando FL (MCO) | 5 | 6 | 5 | ||||
| Panama City FL (ECP) | |||||||
| Pensacola FL (PNS) | |||||||
| Philadelphia PA (PHL) | 2 | 2 | 2 | ||||
| Pittsburgh PA (PIT) | 1 | 1 | 1 | ||||
| Phoenix AZ (PHX) | 4 | 3 | 4 | ||||
| Portland OR (PDX) | |||||||
| Punta Cana DR (PUJ) | |||||||
| Raleigh NC (RDU) | 1 | 1 | 1 | ||||
| Sacramento (SMF) | 1 | 1 | 1 | ||||
| Salt Lake City (SLC) | |||||||
| San Antonio TX (SAT) | 1 | 1 | 1 | ||||
| San Deigo CA (SAN) | 1 | 1 | 1 | ||||
| San Jose CA (SJC) | 1 | 1 | 1 | ||||
| San Juan PR (SJU) | 0 | 1 | 0 | ||||
| Sarasota FL (SRQ) | 1 | 1 | 1 | ||||
| Seattle WA (SEA) | |||||||
| Tampa FL (TPA) | 3 | 3 | 3 | ||||
| Tulsa OK (TUL) | 2 | 1 | 2 | ||||
| Washington DC (DCA) | 4 | 2 | 4 | ||||
| Wichita KS (ICT) | 2 | 1 | 2 | ||||
| 114 | 85 | 114 |
- 9,566
Yes. And from what I’ve heard, I’ve been the star of the videos, maybe I should start doing corporate speaking gigsshadrach wrote: ↑Jun 08, 2023Is this what you were hinting at? Keynote at LH headquarters? That’s pretty impressive.