St. Louis Lambert Int. Airport [airline/hub/operations/info]

JAL007 · PostNov 20, 2022#75012022-11-20T15:51+00:00

GoHarvOrGoHome wrote: ↑
Nov 17, 2022
If they are indeed in the market, STL needs to court JetBlue with everything it's got. Fortunately we have the advantage of the fact that we are rebuilding our airport from scratch, and we are early on in the design process.

How many potential suitors have the ability to literally design their airport to the exact specifications of a carrier like we do? The possibilities are endless

Why bother at this point? Once the transaction with NK (Spirit) gets consummated what is there really to be gained? It is not like they would fly to more than just BOS/JFK.

I know people on this forum tend to romanticize flying JetBlue and while the Mint premium product is quite good (where available), the overall jetBlue core experience has regressed considerably in the last 5-10 years. The basic Blue fares no longer include a carry-on (unless you are AA elite or Mosaic), carrier is an operational disaster, and overall crew member morale is low. Some of it is to be expected as they enter their mid-20s and costs continue to increase but TBH flying domestic I think you will find a more consistent and better overall experience - including setback IFE - on the entire DAL mainline flight (ex-717s). The only reasons to fly JetBlue is their nonstops from Logan, free Wifi (now onboard DL), and the Mint product when you can get a good fare.

PostNov 20, 2022#75022022-11-20T16:04+00:00

symphonicpoet wrote: ↑
Nov 18, 2022
^Mind you, I have no particular reason to think JetBlue is looking to open a mid-continent hub beyond the fact they don't presently have one. But if they are and they were to open it I would gladly take a hit on Southwest's offerings, since JetBlue seems to offer a real business class product, they partner with other carriers, and they fly overseas. I'm glad Southwest is here offering service, but in the end they're no use to me at all. And their opportunity for growth is pretty limited since they're married to their single type rating/everybody flies everything model. I figure Shadrach's fantasy is a fantasy, but I like it. Man, I'd love to see the day someone actually takes a solid step above Southwest. Any of the legacy carriers would do nicely, but barring that JetBlue might just be the ticket.

There has been talk of a B6 midwest hub since circa-2002. Time and time again their expansion efforts have centered around the Caribbean and connecting popular destinations from their Northeast markets. While all airports are always having exploratory discussions with carriers about air service expansion and garnering the attention of new entrants, IMO what STL has going with WN works well and it is unlikely another carrier would enter on anywhere near the scale WN has built up. While the WN product is fairly utilitarian they are simple, friendly, and consistent. People in the area and business community identify with WN brand and it works well. Of course, there is always the risk that WN network planning decides one day they can more efficiently scale up say MCI or BNA and all of a sudden 120x daily departures turn to 50x, but until that happens I don't think it is productive focus on a new entrant starting a hub/focus city/connecting complex/etc type operation.

symphonicpoet · PostNov 21, 2022#75032022-11-21T05:23+00:00

^Don't get me wrong, I'm happy enough that Southwest is here and expanding, but I do sometimes wonder if they discourage other airlines from expanding here. And as consistent as their product may be there are some dramatic limitations to an airline that won't code share and flies only midrange single aisles. They're good for what they do, but I suspect I'm not the only person in town with overseas connections. And it seems just possible to me that if we had a little less of the canyon blue we'd have a bit more AA/DL/UA. (I may not particularly like UA, but at least they can get you off the continent. And some of their partners are probably fine.) And, sure, there have been rumors that JetBlue wants a Midwest hub for quite a while, but you know how much use those rumors are. And they haven't actually done anything I'm aware of to build one so . . . meh, until I see an announcement I'm not expecting anything. Southwest proved you can run an airline without hubs. (At least until they quietly figured out they needed some.) JB is still a smaller operation, so maybe they really can just fly on over and ignore the center of the country. Or maybe they'll decide they want their hub in Omaha.

jshank83 · PostNov 21, 2022#75042022-11-21T06:17+00:00

symphonicpoet wrote: ↑
Nov 21, 2022
^Don't get me wrong, I'm happy enough that Southwest is here and expanding, but I do sometimes wonder if they discourage other airlines from expanding here. And as consistent as their product may be there are some dramatic limitations to an airline that won't code share and flies only midrange single aisles. They're good for what they do, but I suspect I'm not the only person in town with overseas connections. And it seems just possible to me that if we had a little less of the canyon blue we'd have a bit more AA/DL/UA. (I may not particularly like UA, but at least they can get you off the continent. And some of their partners are probably fine.) And, sure, there have been rumors that JetBlue wants a Midwest hub for quite a while, but you know how much use those rumors are. And they haven't actually done anything I'm aware of to build one so . . . meh, until I see an announcement I'm not expecting anything. Southwest proved you can run an airline without hubs. (At least until they quietly figured out they needed some.) JB is still a smaller operation, so maybe they really can just fly on over and ignore the center of the country. Or maybe they'll decide they want their hub in Omaha.

Southwest here definitely keeps others from expanding here. But that’s kind of how it works most places, if you have a dominant carrier they are going to be do what they can to keep others out. We also don’t help ourselves at times, a new carrier adds a route and we keep flying southwest instead of moving to the other carrier. So it’s a cycle of a carrier tried something, Southwest adds flights on the same route and the other airline gives up eventually because people stay with Southwest.

Not that any of that is necessarily bad. If we didn’t have southwest we would have a lot less routes because Southwest runs some routes that only work with connections and if we didn’t have them to the scale they run connections those routes wouldn’t be able to exist.

soulardx · PostNov 21, 2022#75052022-11-21T15:40+00:00

Regarding CVG and LH, per usual for cities of our size, that flight is only going to Cinci because of tax $$.

The below is stolen from airliners.net:

BA got incentives from Kentucky, Ohio, and CVG, but KY and OH won't say how much:

"The states kicked in a three-year revenue guarantee for British Airways worth millions of dollars, but officials declined to provide an exact figure."

"The way the performance-based incentive works is that if British Airways does not achieve a certain amount of revenue per flight, JobsOhio, the state’s private economic development company, will make up the difference. But if enough passengers buy tickets, the state will not have to pay any money"

"Kentucky provided unspecified aid in the package as well."

https://www.bizjournals.com/cincinnati/ ... tives.html

shadrach · PostNov 25, 2022#75062022-11-25T18:29+00:00

https://flyatlantic.com/

Just got a news alert about this new startup airline. No destinations mentioned, curious if STL is in the mix.

chriss752 · PostNov 25, 2022#75072022-11-25T18:36+00:00

^I assume they’ll fly to places on the east coast and maybe Los Angeles to start. This is similar to what Norse Atlantic Airways does.

shadrach · PostNov 25, 2022#75082022-11-25T19:18+00:00

Yep, that would be my guess too.
Shorter distance, smaller planes, less fuel.

symphonicpoet · PostNov 25, 2022#75092022-11-25T21:31+00:00

Drove past this afternoon on the way home and I confess, it was impressive seeing the LH bird's tail sticking up past everything else. Even in a spot TWA often had larger tails in evidence. Brought back some memories.

jshank83 · PostNov 26, 2022#75102022-11-26T01:10+00:00

symphonicpoet wrote: ↑
Nov 25, 2022
Drove past this afternoon on the way home and I confess, it was impressive seeing the LH bird's tail sticking up past everything else. Even in a spot TWA often had larger tails in evidence. Brought back some memories.

Speaking of TWA, I was driving by the airport yesterday and a plane took off in front of me, I thought the tail looked weird and then realized it was the AA plane with the TWA paint job. Always nice to see it in town for a memory.

dweebe · PostNov 26, 2022#75112022-11-26T03:17+00:00

symphonicpoet wrote: ↑
Nov 25, 2022
Drove past this afternoon on the way home and I confess, it was impressive seeing the LH bird's tail sticking up past everything else. Even in a spot TWA often had larger tails in evidence. Brought back some memories.

I want to say the most I ever saw was two L-1011s and two 747s

symphonicpoet · PostNov 27, 2022#75122022-11-27T06:57+00:00

^I can't say I ever saw any more than that, but it seemed like there was always at least one widebody in evidence, and that's definitely a site I've missed.

shadrach · PostNov 27, 2022#75132022-11-27T19:43+00:00

Not sure if this was posted and missed it. From STL Today four days ago—
St. Louis airport looks to beef up livestock flights

$2 million from the state to upgrade facilities for FDA approval, also mention $5 million to lure international service to the state, STL or KCI.
(The City should add $5 million from Rams settlement, sweeten that pot for BA service.)

jshank83 · PostNov 28, 2022#75142022-11-28T04:19+00:00

shadrach wrote: ↑
Nov 27, 2022
Not sure if this was posted and missed it. From STL Today four days ago—
St. Louis airport looks to beef up livestock flights

$2 million from the state to upgrade facilities for FDA approval, also mention $5 million to lure international service to the state, STL or KCI.
(The City should add $5 million from Rams settlement, sweeten that pot for BA service.)

I’m skeptical the livestock thing pans out. It’s barely been used as is and hasn’t had a flight in months. Maybe one this year. I’m also pretty sure the ones they have had were subsidized by the airport.

gone corporate · PostNov 29, 2022#75152022-11-29T20:37+00:00

Aviation Pros: St. Louis Airport Looks to Beef Up Livestock Flights

jshank83 · PostDec 05, 2022#75162022-12-05T16:51+00:00

This is never going to happen

framer · PostDec 05, 2022#75172022-12-05T20:25+00:00

Sorta like the transition to metric that we started back in the '70s.

jshank83 · PostDec 06, 2022#75182022-12-06T05:03+00:00

October numbers

Up 19.6% vs OCT21
Up 37% YTD vs 2021

Down 8.4% vs OCT19
Down 14.2% YTD vs 2019

Last 12 months passengers: 13,442,553

I think it will end up just under 14 mil for the year. They have been gaining about 200k-250k a month over last year. Would put them around 2016 numbers.

symphonicpoet · PostDec 06, 2022#75192022-12-06T05:47+00:00

^^^Love that TWA and Pan Am are the two identifiable airlines in the pictures behind him. (Pan Am sort of makes sense. I'm not positive, but I'm guessing they're in the Marine Air Terminal, which was Pan Am's NYC hub before Worldport at JFK.)

pdm_ad · PostDec 06, 2022#75202022-12-06T15:32+00:00

^^ Thanks for posting, jshank. At the current rate, when do you think we'll be back to 2019 #s?

GoHarvOrGoHome · PostDec 06, 2022#75212022-12-06T15:50+00:00

At this point the difference between today and 2019 is probably more related to the pilot shortage and the current high fares than COVID or anything else

matguy70 · PostDec 06, 2022#75222022-12-06T23:51+00:00

The National Herald TRAVEL
Safeguard Your Sanity This Holiday Season, Skip These US Airports With Long Wait Times

https://www.thenationalherald.com/safeg ... ait-times/

"St. Louis Lambert International Airport (STL), Denver International Airport (DEN), and Baltimore/Washington International Airport (BWI) all ranked closely behind for quick Customs clearance. Their averages ranged from 10.93 to 11.66 minutes."

jshank83 · PostDec 07, 2022#75232022-12-07T05:28+00:00

pdm_ad wrote: ↑
Dec 06, 2022
^^ Thanks for posting, jshank. At the current rate, when do you think we'll be back to 2019 #s?

I’m hoping by next summer, but we’ll see how schedules go.

PostDec 08, 2022#75242022-12-08T00:06+00:00

Commission meeting updates:

Southwest pushing for the new T2 baggage update so it should get built. Not sure on timeline.
10K more space all carousels will be redone. Sounds like there will be 3 like original plan.
Baggage room probably moved. Possibly restrooms also.
Additional bag drop off on ramp side to drop bags, coming off planes going to baggage claim, because they back up with current setup.
Southwest still needs to sign MOU.

CLEAR extends their operating agreement so they will continue to be around

Host 7 year extension for food services. A bunch of Host higher ups were in attendance, 7 mil in updates or new concepts required. The airport put the hard sell on extending them.
New food court. Gone are Burger King and Cali Pizza kitchen. In are Shake Shack, Pick Up Stix (asian), starbucks expansion
Chilis in C is going away. Was going to be a STL City SC themed but it fell thru so something else TBD will go in.
Auntie Anns taking over Jamba Juice in C
C17 Starbucks gone for local coffee shop

Three Kings, Pasta House/Schlafly, Vino Volos, Kingside Diner are NOT under Host

As someone who really has complained on the food options here I think they are going to be much better after this. I still don't like the lack of fast food, especially now with Burger King leaving but the fast casual will be pretty solid at least in T2. I would still change a couple things (change Auntie Anns and the bar by C24, and the bagel place) but it is pretty good now.

Other stuff
LH happy with loads so far. Better than expected
LH does has 5 or 6 people a flight connecting from United to LH here.

Sunday after Thanksgiving best day of the year.
Probably will end up 12% down for the year vs 2019.
Think we will be above 2019 next year.

symphonicpoet · PostDec 08, 2022#75252022-12-08T06:38+00:00

^Great stuff jshank! You do us all a real service with this. Thank you.

St. Louis Lambert Int. Airport [airline/hub/operations/info]

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