The points about pulling in KC/MEM folks I think probably is a really good one. This flight will be partially filled by people who wouldn't be driving here for a more expensive flight. This will increase the area for this flight they can pull from. I also trust the airport has enough business sense to know this doesn't please any business people. I am trusting Rhonda and others because lately they have been doing a great job. This is better than Spirit that is for sure.Chalupas54 wrote: ↑Aug 23, 2017Interesting point with demand pulling from KC and Memphis. Maybe even IND to an extent. I believe PIT used subsidies for WOW, and they had wow before Condor. I totally feel this being a huge let down to everyone, but it's definitely not the end of the world. I think if this route is seasonal, then it really favors another airline like BA or Condor coming in. WOW will not cater to business travelers. Rhonda Hamm-Airport Director ( I will not attempt the last name) addressed the route in her statement as a leisure destination, and not much else- so I think it's safe to say the airport knows this is not for business passengers.imperialmog wrote: ↑Aug 23, 2017I could see pulling some demand from KC and Memphis among other places for this due to cheap fares and those are likely impossible to reach by them anyway.Chalupas54 wrote: ↑Aug 23, 2017Tickets are already on sale on WOW's website. It looks like the flight is 5X weekly, and they are booking through October, which I believe is the extent of their current schedule.
Flights depart STL at 10:55 PM, arrive at KEF around 6:00 AM.
Returns to STL at 8:35 PM.
Yes, this is likely unsubsidized and could encourage someone else to come in later, especially if demand is stimulated and ability for someone else to do something year round. (Since I doubt this could be year round for technical reasons) Likely they would get the normal incentives from the airport for any new route which I think is waiving landing fees for a couple years. (Though maybe not that since i'm not sure if it requires year-round and/or daily service)
What I think this does spell is bad news for airports like CMH and IND. IND especially would have been a low hanging fruit for WOW to pick off. CMH is in the same boat. IND and CMH are now surrounded by TATL's on all sides with in a four-hour drive. I see it being very hard for them to convince any prospecting airline (esp. BA) to launch service given the ULCC TATL's surrounding them. Thankfully, STL is still 'far enough' from other TATL origins to still land a legacy.
My final thoughts on WOW are simple: Better than nothing. Would I have loved to see a BA announcement today? Absolutely. But, landing any TATL IMO was better than landing JetBlue or Spirit.
I'm genuinely excited about this. My wife and I are much more likely to take advantage of budget travel to Iceland/Europe than a most likely expensive non-stop BA flight. No whining that you didn't get your way, this is hopefully step one of good things to come.
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^ That's what I was thinking. The reaction from airport officials know the job isn't done and almost has a tone there is something else to be announced in coming months. This also wouldn't address cargo needs since I doubt much if any cargo could ride along.
The possible pull from this is well beyond the metro area and also could be people who wouldn't travel to Europe or from Europe to here otherwise. Them passing up Indianapolis also could have some people from there travelling here. (also to CVG depending on where in metro area) Also the college students with limited funds travelling for summer trips on the cheap. Also they might not be able to use every seat on the plane as well so capacity may be reduced.
Interesting to see if there is some other news in the coming weeks. Southwest has another extension Monday and likely has some adds there with their issues sorted.
The possible pull from this is well beyond the metro area and also could be people who wouldn't travel to Europe or from Europe to here otherwise. Them passing up Indianapolis also could have some people from there travelling here. (also to CVG depending on where in metro area) Also the college students with limited funds travelling for summer trips on the cheap. Also they might not be able to use every seat on the plane as well so capacity may be reduced.
Interesting to see if there is some other news in the coming weeks. Southwest has another extension Monday and likely has some adds there with their issues sorted.
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Question: So, come Spring of 2018, how many international destination will St. Louis-Lambert International Airport serve?
Wonder where the outbound gate will be? New gates scheduled to open in C? Or since it is only once a day, would they just use E29?
Would be interesting to get a take from international business traveler or two on WOW or even a Norwegian Air. Obviously Norwegian Air doesn't serve St. Louis. However, you have some significant service coming from Nordic cheap carriers between WOW announced flights to 12 cities if I got that right and Norwegian Air earlier expansion into US Market
Go back to my frequent domestic business travel and how Southwest really wasn't a player in the business travel few years back. They added enough flights, connections and added businesses select for preference on seating. Now a good share of my co-workers are split between Southwest and legacy perk travelers like myself. Which brings to my next question - Is WOW and Norwegian Air piggybacking on Southwest locations even though they don't code share? Instead of driving, you take a cheap get away flight on Southwest to get from KC to STL before you hop on WOW.
BA would seem the big fish to land but also a lot of moving parts from competing cities to aircraft issues as noted in the blogs. Also, wouldn't BA also have to jump hurdles with code share partners which to me seems like American would push back to having a competing BA STL to London flight. Finally, a few articles here and there that England has some work to do so Brexit doesn't slam them on open sky agreements.
Go back to my frequent domestic business travel and how Southwest really wasn't a player in the business travel few years back. They added enough flights, connections and added businesses select for preference on seating. Now a good share of my co-workers are split between Southwest and legacy perk travelers like myself. Which brings to my next question - Is WOW and Norwegian Air piggybacking on Southwest locations even though they don't code share? Instead of driving, you take a cheap get away flight on Southwest to get from KC to STL before you hop on WOW.
BA would seem the big fish to land but also a lot of moving parts from competing cities to aircraft issues as noted in the blogs. Also, wouldn't BA also have to jump hurdles with code share partners which to me seems like American would push back to having a competing BA STL to London flight. Finally, a few articles here and there that England has some work to do so Brexit doesn't slam them on open sky agreements.
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TorontoMatthew Hibbard wrote: ↑Aug 23, 2017Question: So, come Spring of 2018, how many international destination will St. Louis-Lambert International Airport serve?
Cancun
Reykjavik
+Various Apple Vacations Charters
Sorry if I missed it but what plane will WOW be using for our route?
A321. Guessing the neomoorlander wrote: ↑Aug 23, 2017Sorry if I missed it but what plane will WOW be using for our route?
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Interesting is looking on their wiki page they only have one A321 neo now and one in order. (if this is accurate) If they only will have a total of two using one of those for here would say something, most likely they had to use a neo due to range. (interesting to see if there is any issues to this or if they will do something to deal with it)
Wonder if one reason to get here is in part due to catchment area that covers several other metros, some of which is likely to certainly out of range.
Wonder if one reason to get here is in part due to catchment area that covers several other metros, some of which is likely to certainly out of range.
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An A321ceo should have the range by a little over 400nm for STL-KEF. Probably would have to be a bit weight-restricted; there's probably a nonzero chance of them using their incoming A321neo for such a long route.
Potential future TATL adds within the next five years?:
Icelandair to KEF
Norwegian to OSL
BA to LHR
Condor to FRA
Potential future TATL adds within the next five years?:
Icelandair to KEF
Norwegian to OSL
BA to LHR
Condor to FRA
Specifics:
Port Authority 600K towards marking over 2 years
Airport 200K over the 2 years
Waived landing fees.
Touted business community wanting flights to Europe for this. I can't imagine THAT many businesses will use this. Maybe if they pay for all the extras?
I think the leisure side is a big plus. I agree with that part.
Port Authority 600K towards marking over 2 years
Airport 200K over the 2 years
Waived landing fees.
Touted business community wanting flights to Europe for this. I can't imagine THAT many businesses will use this. Maybe if they pay for all the extras?
I think the leisure side is a big plus. I agree with that part.
WOW is going to be a non-starter for business travelers. Considering most medium to large businesses allow for business class travel on Trans-Atlantic flights, you are not going to see business travelers fly a red-eye via KEF on a plane with 30" pitch. (By comparison, Southwest typically has 32-33" pitch.) There isn't any advantage to connecting via Chicago, Dallas or Atlanta.dredger wrote: ↑Aug 23, 2017Would be interesting to get a take from international business traveler or two on WOW or even a Norwegian Air.
[...]
Go back to my frequent domestic business travel and how Southwest really wasn't a player in the business travel few years back. They added enough flights, connections and added businesses select for preference on seating. Now a good share of my co-workers are split between Southwest and legacy perk travelers like myself.
Southwest really isn't very different from other major domestic airlines. Most corporations will not pay for domestic first class and the convenience of a non-stop flight can be the deciding point of Southwest vs AA / UA / DL.
WOW will attract leisure travelers seeking out the best fare. But for business travelers (and even more well-off leisure travelers), it's not going to be an attractive option.
Greg
This is just the first announcement. BA will be announcing soon (this summer/fall) from my rumblings in the travel industry.
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Isn't some of these rather standard procedures for new routes? I know the landing fees definitely is. One thing I would be curious is possible stimulated demand effect. Maybe there could be a before/after comparison for that to other places to get a read on that to see.jshank83 wrote: ↑Aug 23, 2017Specifics:
Port Authority 600K towards marking over 2 years
Airport 200K over the 2 years
Waived landing fees.
Touted business community wanting flights to Europe for this. I can't imagine THAT many businesses will use this. Maybe if they pay for all the extras?
I think the leisure side is a big plus. I agree with that part.
I only fly 2 or 3 times internationally a year for work but I doubt my company would even look into WOW as they don't book low cost carriers for us domestically either. There really is no upside with them unless you are going to Iceland, as any of their other destinations can be reached via one hop on other carriers. I keep my international travel with Delta as I find the upgrade chances to be quite high when flying from STL to MSP or STL to LGA which I do more frequently.dredger wrote: ↑Aug 23, 2017Would be interesting to get a take from international business traveler or two on WOW or even a Norwegian Air. Obviously Norwegian Air doesn't serve St. Louis. However, you have some significant service coming from Nordic cheap carriers between WOW announced flights to 12 cities if I got that right and Norwegian Air earlier expansion into US Market
Go back to my frequent domestic business travel and how Southwest really wasn't a player in the business travel few years back. They added enough flights, connections and added businesses select for preference on seating. Now a good share of my co-workers are split between Southwest and legacy perk travelers like myself. Which brings to my next question - Is WOW and Norwegian Air piggybacking on Southwest locations even though they don't code share? Instead of driving, you take a cheap get away flight on Southwest to get from KC to STL before you hop on WOW.
I also will fly enough to be A-List preferred on Southwest. As far as domestic travel goes, I am always picking the non stop over a stop. So for me in STL, Southwest is the only game in town. I generally fly Biz Select and get an aisle seat which makes it quite comfortable, and their reward miles for domestic flights is amazing. (One BS R/T to KC or Omaha is about 10k in points, worth 150ish dollars). If Delta/American/United had as many non stops here I'd likely fly one of them though, solely to get Global Upgrades to use on my few international flights as my company only will book economy.
Honestly, the thing that would most improve my travel life in STL would be another Starbucks or coffee shop; I'd love to see a Kaldi's in T2. The Starbucks during the mid morning bank of flights is always packed and is quite small.
I think they are supposed to be putting in another Starbucks around gate E29/31/33. It is on the terminal map at least. I don't know exactly how big it will be either though. I haven't been down there to look lately.
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Considering with today's announcement and them flying out of T2, that makes the need for that Starbucks and other amenities all the more pressing to address.
Also I had to check this and very curious if the wiki part is accurate:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Longest_flights
Looking up Great Circle Mapper, it seems STL-KEF is noticeably longer than the longest A321 and A321 neo route listed in the wiki.
Also I had to check this and very curious if the wiki part is accurate:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Longest_flights
Looking up Great Circle Mapper, it seems STL-KEF is noticeably longer than the longest A321 and A321 neo route listed in the wiki.
Feeling a tad let down but pleasantly surprised.
I mean, imagine if they added Detroit, Cincy and Cleveland only (as things have gone in the past.)
Wow, would that have burnt my biscuits and sent me on a downward spiral of "what will it take...?!"
Still hoping for BA (oder Lufthansa) soon as Matguy teases.
I mean, imagine if they added Detroit, Cincy and Cleveland only (as things have gone in the past.)
Wow, would that have burnt my biscuits and sent me on a downward spiral of "what will it take...?!"
Still hoping for BA (oder Lufthansa) soon as Matguy teases.
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I agree. The vacant area between the chapel and E34 needs to be utilized as some sort of food service space soon. Even with Vino Volo expanding and the new local restaurant by E33, T2's food options will continue to be overcrowded.imperialmog wrote: ↑Aug 23, 2017Considering with today's announcement and them flying out of T2, that makes the need for that Starbucks and other amenities all the more pressing to address.
stlouisian133 wrote: ↑Aug 23, 2017I agree. The vacant area between the chapel and E34 needs to be utilized as some sort of food service space soon. Even with Vino Volo expanding and the new local restaurant by E33, T2's food options will continue to be overcrowded.imperialmog wrote: ↑Aug 23, 2017Considering with today's announcement and them flying out of T2, that makes the need for that Starbucks and other amenities all the more pressing to address.
Does anyone know what is in that area by the moving sidewalk. I was able to see through the openings in the wall on Monday and it looked like a wide open space. Hard to see through small openings. If you look on old Google Earth images it looks like 2 gates used to be there.
Also looked like Southwest was installing boarding signs and additional gate agent terminals for E36 on Monday.
Looks like Uber is now working for pickup at the Airport across all levels (X, XL, Select, Black).
Good day for the airport today.
Good day for the airport today.
By the current floor plan it's just unused space. I think it would make a good spot for a couple restaurants once they start running more flights out of E34-40pmt257 wrote: ↑Aug 23, 2017stlouisian133 wrote: ↑Aug 23, 2017I agree. The vacant area between the chapel and E34 needs to be utilized as some sort of food service space soon. Even with Vino Volo expanding and the new local restaurant by E33, T2's food options will continue to be overcrowded.imperialmog wrote: ↑Aug 23, 2017Considering with today's announcement and them flying out of T2, that makes the need for that Starbucks and other amenities all the more pressing to address.
Does anyone know what is in that area by the moving sidewalk. I was able to see through the openings in the wall on Monday and it looked like a wide open space. Hard to see through small openings. If you look on old Google Earth images it looks like 2 gates used to be there.