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PostApr 13, 2015#851

arch city wrote:
WendellOPruitt wrote:If that is true why is Boston a much healthier city with its known racist culture. St. Louis' economic health has nothing do with social issues but more to do with the US economy becoming more service than manufacturing.
Read my comment again.........this time SLOWLY.

I think you are in major denial. Major. Because even Francis Slay, who I don't consider to be the greatest leader, knows that economic health suffers because of heavy or burdensome socio-economic factors. Why is improving schools, housing, the justice system, health care, employment, levels of education etc. etc. a priority for good leaders? Because it makes the city/region better off socially thereby making your city and region more competitive economically. That's the reality. It has been studied organizations such as East-West Gateway for decades.

Additionally, the world knows, thanks to the BBC, about the Delmar Divide IN St. Louis so putting your head in the sand and pointing to Boston's racial problems isn't going to change or solve ANYTHING in St. Louis. Ever heard the phrase, "Worry about how high the grass is in your own backyard."?
WendellOPruitt wrote: To say a cities success is based on social issues is being myopic.

That's such a naive comment. No offense intended, but clearly you aren't a Social Scientist.

Again, you apparently skipped the very first paragraph of my comment. :shock:

And you are wrong.......even some of the most forward-thinking local business leaders have discussed how St. Louis' social problems (particularly real crime and perception of crime, for example) could be impacting (or limiting) companies' willingness to locate jobs in St. Louis.

The reality is......racism is just one piece of the social dysfunction puzzle that exists in metro St. Louis. I gave numerous examples other than racism. It feels disconcerting to read a comment that suggests St. Louis would be okay if only its economy was better. Maybe so, but as I stated, local racial and social problems seep into almost every facet of life in St. Louis. They are intricately woven into St. Louis culture. It's should no longer be business as usual for anyone to be a part of such a culture.

And until St. Louis takes it head out of the sand and give the old dinosaur politicians the boot they deserve, STL will keep getting articles like the one in the AJC written about it.

Stop being in denial. It doesn't help St. Louis. It really doesn't.
I was commenting about racial issues in St. Louis BEFORE FERGUSON when everybody was calling me ignorant.
http://urbanstl.com/forum/viewtopic.php ... &start=360

LOL, it's funny everybody is a Freedom Rider now! Also.......

First of all my are comments are towards the AJC article.

Second I never said STL would be better off it had a better economy. I DID say Chicago has a better economy but the same problems in my first comment about the article. In my second comment I said STL has problems too.

THE POINT IS RACISM IS US PROBLEM NOT JUST ST. LOUIS. THAT IS WHY POLICE SHOOTING UNARMED BLACKS HAVE CONTINUED NOT JUST IN STL.

St. Louis is on par socially with most of the big cities around the country.

PostApr 13, 2015#852

This is Atlanta....this is where that newspaper is from, claiming STL has racial problems seems SEGREGATED TO ME!



http://streetsblog.net/2014/02/18/expan ... gregation/

PostApr 13, 2015#853

Here's Chicago where the AJC wrote is a better place racially......Oh, I guess this why their economy is so great!


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PostApr 13, 2015#854

Insisting that St. Louis has problems well beyond its peers is just silly. It's possible to address our issues without being hyperbolic about how bad things are. Without staying grounded in what our actual problems are, it's difficult to create realistic solutions. Building problems into enormous mountainous issues implies that the solutions must move mountains to work; that's no way to win widespread support from people who aren't interested in uprooting their lives to that degree.

Edit: I don't trust my impression of those dot maps; colors and eyeballs do funny things.
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PostApr 13, 2015#855

arch city wrote:Tell me if anything in this video is inaccurate.

AJC - Atlanta Forward: A look at St. Louis

It's interesting how cities used to look up and wanted to be like world-class St. Louis, but now some locals in St. Louis think St. Louis is too grand and historic to look up to other emerging world-class cities like Atlanta and Houston. Now other cities want little to no part of St. Louis' shenanigans. BTW, Houston is definitely a world-class city.

Ultimately, I think St. Louis will be okay, it just has work to do.
Are you saying those Southern cities used to look up to St Louis in the past because we had less racism then? Or was it because we were bigger economically then? I think most racism comes from losers desiring to feel superior to someone, or blame someone else for their financial failures. But if the economy improves, everyone succeeds and racism diminishes.
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PostApr 13, 2015#856

WendellOPruitt wrote:Here's Chicago where the AJC wrote is a better place racially......Oh, I guess this why their economy is so great!


Can you provide STL's map? Although the degree of segregation is only one measure of racism, I do believe STL has the highest percentage of whites living in 90% white census tracks. I don't want to say that today we have any more or less degree of outright racism (other than to say that I've never lived in a region where so many wish ill upon the Central City and I believe that is largely because they equate the city with blacks) , but our extreme historical structural racism and regional fragmentation has left us a legacy of deep problems that we are so ill-equipped to properly address today. In this respect, most other cities are much better positioned.
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PostApr 13, 2015#857

gary kreie wrote:But if the economy improves, everyone succeeds and racism diminishes.
Wow. Okay.
gary kreie wrote:Are you saying those Southern cities used to look up to St Louis in the past because we had less racism then? Or was it because we were bigger economically then?
Those cities used to look up to St. Louis because St. Louis was a shining city on the hill – and not only because its economy. It was an optimistic city as demonstrated by the Olympics, World Fair and Lindbergh’s Spirit of St. Louis. And yes, it had wealth and a robust economy.

St. Louis was a world-class city with world-class amenities that few cities could match. But guess what else it had then? Racism. Racism was an impediment to social progress in St. Louis in 1915 and it’s an impediment to social progress in 2015.

Racism is one problem that has marred St. Louis’ upward trajectory – no matter how you slice or dice it. But she has a shitload of other problems too.

The Ferguson fiasco and tomfoolery shown all around the world is evident of the racial divide in St. Louis. Even with the best of jobs and access to employment, systemic racism still lives. And it’s not okay. It cannot be justified or minimized.

With that said, what is helping to drive the economies of progressive cities in this new millennium economy is inclusion and diversity. Progressive and growing cities figured out the formula a long time ago. Now some of the powers-that-be in St. Louis are recognizing that in order for St. Louis to thrive and compete, it needs to increase diversity and inclusion. It has to become more progressive. Unfortunately, it is behind the curve trying to catch up - as usual.

Further, progressive people don’t want move to a place where there seems to be a lack of progressiveness and deep-seeded racial problems. Once again, St. Louis has been THE ONLY city where I have called a nigger - multiple times - unprovoked. I know of people and stories where people passed on St. Louis because it didn't feel progressive enough. St. Louis is stuck and there are evident manifestations all over the region.

For the record, Houston’s economy is more robust than it has ever been, but before its current economic boom, due to the energy sector, Houston’s leadership has long touted diversity and inclusiveness regardless of race, class, gender, religion and sexuality. While Houston isn’t perfect, it is now more diverse than New York and Los Angeles.

Houston is said to be how all of America will look eventually. It’s a characteristic I hope St. Louis can eventually emulate. Hopefully, the culture and climate will change as some of the people die off.
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PostApr 14, 2015#858

Not sure if it's the same data cited by AJC, but this study out of Brown University calculated segregation indices for a bunch of cities including STL using 2010 census data:

http://www.s4.brown.edu/us2010/Data/Report/report2.pdf

And Business Insider provides of ranking of the most segregated cities based on the Brown data along with a map for each:

http://www.businessinsider.com/most-seg ... 013-4?op=1

Note that while we're pretty high up on the segregation scale, Cleveland, Miami, Philly, Chicago, Newark, NYC, Milwaukee, and Detroit are all MORE segregated than St. Louis based on their metric.

P.S. the segregation scores or "dissimilarity indices" cited in the BI article are black-white specific while the maps indicate hispanic and asian populations as well.
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PostApr 14, 2015#859

Boom like Chicago eh?

http://www.nationaljournal.com/magazine ... r-20150327

I guess there is an article out there for whatever narrative you subscribe to. Thought I would put this up for some perspective.
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PostApr 14, 2015#860

^ There is a difference between the boom of the powerhouse Chicago economy and the state of Chicago's municipal finances. Back in the 70's, Gerald Ford famously said "Drop Dead" to NYC (he really didn't exactly say that but it made for a nice cover) when it was seeking federal rescue $$, but there was never any doubt that the New York Metro was still king. Even if Chicago had to declare bankruptcy to sort out its pension mess like Detroit did, Chicagoland will still dwarf most metros in wealth and economic might.

As I mentioned earlier, I think this is what the AJC article was focused on but its too bad its behind a paywall.
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PostApr 14, 2015#861

On my first trip to New York City in 1989, an African American man jumped the turnstile right in front of me, and an older white guy started yelling at the top of his lungs, "You f###in' n-----r! You f###in' n------r!" No one in the somewhat crowded subway station even batted an eye. It was my very first impression of NYC, and I never forgot it. This was on the A train on the Upper West Side of Manhattan. Ignorant idiots live everywhere.
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PostApr 14, 2015#862

Took some time, but I found the Saint Louis racial demographic map.

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PostApr 14, 2015#863

Houston.
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PostApr 14, 2015#864

Atlanta is somewhat of an exception to the "new South" when it comes to integration. I've found that the major cities in Texas and Florida are far more racially integrated. I mean people really get along and mingle in both states and their cities are wildly diverse. The East Coast is equally as diverse, but far more racially segregated. Chicago's racial situation is similar to St. Louis, except it may be even more racially polarized and has a much, much larger Latino presence. One thing I have found in Chicago is that its overall a very anti-black city, no matter what race you are, it seems to have a overall anti-black vibe. As a black male, I don't feel that as blatantly in St. Louis.
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PostApr 14, 2015#865

goat314 wrote:One thing I have found in Chicago is that its overall a very anti-black city, no matter what race you are, it seems to have a overall anti-black vibe. As a black male, I don't feel that as blatantly in St. Louis.
What is an "anti-black vibe"? And is this experienced in the city proper or suburbs?
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PostApr 14, 2015#866

Let Chicago native R. Kelly explain it for ya.
Sorry, I couldn't resist:

Joann's got it
Leonice has got it
Theresa's got it
Tonia's got it
I tell ya Cheryl's got it
Boy I tell you
Betty's got it
Chip has got it
And Ann's got it
Gail's got it
Stephanie's got it
And Sabrina's got it
Rachelle has got it yeah
Gladys got it
Fontina's got it
Little cute Aaliyah's got it (!)
Ooh Stacy's got it
I tell ya
Tita's got it
I tell ya Rita's got it
Oh Laurel's got it
And Kim's got it, yeah

Vibe, vibe, vibe
You've got that vibe
Vibe, vibe, vibe
You've, you've, you've got that
Vibe, vibe, vibe
Girl you've got
That vibe

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PostApr 14, 2015#867

At least the step where more and more are identifying the problems is being done, but the next step is solving the problems. That is the even harder part since it involves going against the political orthodoxy that reigns.

One other issue that has to be addressed and will be a growing impediment to change is the politics coming from Jefferson City.
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PostApr 14, 2015#868

imperialmog wrote:One other issue that has to be addressed and will be a growing impediment to change is the politics coming from Jefferson City.
Do you think the "race to the bottom" will be the State Government's undoing? I say this with hesitation, but maybe the urban areas should support tax cutting to zero. It's not the state government propping up Urban areas. I see the Missouri Legislature as this unnecessary layer of government between Local government and Federal Government in the information age. Made worse in Missouri that it's controlled by a political ideology that is openly hostile towards urban areas.

The best kept secret in Missouri is how much redistribution comes from taxing the urban centers that goes to rural/suburban communities.
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PostApr 14, 2015#869

WendellOPruitt wrote: I'm not very surprise by that though. The South has a culture of Whites and Blacks together even in its ugly past, Blacks played some part in their society.
I'm, uh, not sure I follow your point here.
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PostApr 14, 2015#870

ajwillikers wrote:
imperialmog wrote:One other issue that has to be addressed and will be a growing impediment to change is the politics coming from Jefferson City.
Do you think the "race to the bottom" will be the State Government's undoing? I say this with hesitation, but maybe the urban areas should support tax cutting to zero. It's not the state government propping up Urban areas. I see the Missouri Legislature as this unnecessary layer of government between Local government and Federal Government in the information age. Made worse in Missouri that it's controlled by a political ideology that is openly hostile towards urban areas.

The best kept secret in Missouri is how much redistribution comes from taxing the urban centers that goes to rural/suburban communities.
It depends on weather social issues get brought up, which I've heard from more than a few people is a reason why they are looking at leaving the area. They see the quality of life here dropping due to the race to the bottom and also feel increasingly not welcome due to their views and lifestyle.
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PostApr 14, 2015#871

gary kreie wrote:Houston.
That map changes nothing what I said about Houston and its leadership. Absolutely nothing.

I wrote, "Houston’s leadership has long touted diversity and inclusiveness regardless of race, class, gender, religion and sexuality. While Houston isn’t perfect, it is now more diverse than New York and Los Angeles."

That remains a fact. I said nothing to suggest that Houston wasn't segregated because most American cities/regions are.

At the end of the day, systemic racism and prejudice are STARK in St. Louis. The intensity is notable even to reasonable, progressive, socially-conscience white people. I've lived in several cities and St. Louis - in regards to race relations - hands down has been the worst. Period, point blank, end of story. There are many lessons St. Louis could learn from Houston.

Although Houston had its issues in the past too, current segregation trends in Houston are not akin to anything like this.


1916 Leaftlet promoting a voter referendum to segregate St. Louis, which passed.
Photo credit: Missouri History Museum Archives, St. Louis
Source

Now with that said...........

-In Houston, yes, Latinos tend to gravitate towards the East End and eastern side of the metro - Pasadena, Lawndale, City of South Houston, Gulfton, SE Houston, Gulfgate, I-45, Airline etc. not because they have been steered or are trying to avoid other groups, but because of culture, culturally-specific amenities, affordability and familia ties.

-It's the same with African-Americans/Creoles who live densely in the wards - particularly the south wards, South/SW Houston, Pearland, Missouri City, Sugarland, Manvel, Fresno, Alief, Richmond-Rosenberg and Stafford. Folk follow friends, family and cultural amenities to certain areas of town. Caribbean, native born Africans and immigrants move to Missouri City, Sugarland, Alief, Richmond-Rosenberg, Katy.

-For the same reasons, Asians of all nationalities and ethnic groups have concentrated along Bellaire Boulevard for miles, in Alief, SW Houston, Sugarland, Missouri City, West Houston, Katy etc.

-There are high concentrations of whites in Bellaire, West University, Memorial, River Oaks, Southside Place etc. I'm sure some of the same dynamics are in play.

Keep in mind that minorities, of all backgrounds, live ALL over Houston. And for the most part, these groups - Blacks, Latinos, whites, Asians - overlap in many parts of the Houston region unlike in metro St. Louis where the largest overlap of racial groups exists in the Central Corridor.

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PostApr 14, 2015#872

Anecdotally, my best friend just moved to Denver about six months ago because of their legalization of cannabis; he was "tired of being made to feel like a criminal for his private lifestyle choices," and his financée is involved in the medial marijuana industry.
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PostApr 14, 2015#873

^ well he is still a criminal even in Denver as far as the Federal Government is concerned. :)
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PostApr 14, 2015#874

MarkHaversham wrote:
WendellOPruitt wrote: I'm not very surprise by that though. The South has a culture of Whites and Blacks together even in its ugly past, Blacks played some part in their society.
I'm, uh, not sure I follow your point here.
Blacks have lived among whites there, even during Jim Crow with sharecropping and black maids. See movies like 'The Help', 'Gone With The Wind ', and 'To Kill a Mocking Bird'.

The South has many Historically Black Colleges and Universities(HBCU) that is why its middle class is very strong. ATL has two top HBCU's it can draw from other areas as well as educate their own.
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PostApr 14, 2015#875

stlgasm wrote:On my first trip to New York City in 1989, an African American man jumped the turnstile right in front of me, and an older white guy started yelling at the top of his lungs, "You f###in' n-----r! You f###in' n------r!" No one in the somewhat crowded subway station even batted an eye. It was my very first impression of NYC, and I never forgot it. This was on the A train on the Upper West Side of Manhattan. Ignorant idiots live everywhere.
Currently, there's a famous and respected local African-American radio Hip-Hop DJ who lived in NYC.

He's originally from St. Louis and was on WBLS in NYC for 10 years before returning to St. Louis in 2011.

He has spoken about how fortunate he was to live somewhere other than St. Louis.

On his show he occasionally talks about St. Louis' racial problems and relations and how stuck it is in comparison to other places.

Surely there are racist a**holes in NYC - as there are everywhere. Hell, one of NYC's former mayors, Rudy Giuliani, is a racist.

Still, chances are NYC is more socially progressive - overall - than St. Louis.

Just sayin'. :wink:
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