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PostAug 16, 2006#126

dweebe wrote:Most in Chicago are the passive style since there are so many people they can just take it easy, sit in front of the Walgreens on Michigan Ave and wait for the occasional quarter to be put in their cup.
Umm, no.


dweebe wrote:St. Louis panhandlers tend to be more aggresive because they are fewer people(targets) downtown and have to work for their money.
Again, no. After several years of working in and near the Loop, I can assure you that is not true, it all depends on the location and time of day. If it is 9 PM on a weeknight, they are going to be just as aggresive in the Loop as in downtown St. Louis at the same time. Although, I will admit that Chicago panhandlers generally have more creative stories, maybe that is due to their incrementally better public school system. :lol:



I had one lady that would hit me up for money almost every time I stepped out the door of my office building for four years, saying "I'm hongry. I'm soo hoongry" each time (she wasn't one of the more creative ones). Each time, it would take exactly three firm nos for her to give up. Funny thing is, I never detected even the slightest hint of recognition on her part, even when I would turn a corner and she was there. Either she was a remarkable actress, or there really was no recognition, which is amazing to ponder...
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PostAug 16, 2006#127

Whatever happened to that newspaper the homeless were supposedly producing and selling by themselves a while back? About a year or two ago I tried to buy a copy from a homeless guy, but he wouldn't give me the freaking paper! He wanted my money, of course, but he didn't want to give me the product. Is that the kind of work-skills they're teaching these guys?
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PostAug 16, 2006#128

It is still around. The guy you saw may not have been a "legitimate" seller, as funny as that sounds. I bought a copy a few weeks ago, but this guy had a stack of them. I believe the homeless have to meet certain standards to sell it (although it is hard to imagine what those might be...just kidding...). The newspaper/magazine is called Whats Up and there are actually authorized homeless vendors that receive training and, I think, a vendor ID.



Washington U Record Article about Whats Up founder



Whats Up Website



If he was legit, the guy you saw would most definitely be fired for not giving you a copy. I used to see it all the time with Streetwise in Chicago, some homeless guy would get a hold of one and try to sell the same grubby, torn-up copy several times. The real Streetwise vendors deal with these guys pretty quickly though, if they see them.
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PostAug 16, 2006#129

dweebe wrote:BTW: Walking to work, to and from lunch I've been panhandled four times today. Can't wait to leave work!


I guess it just depends on where you go. I took a long walk on my lunch break yesterday - walked down Washington from Broadway all the way to 14th, headed over to Locust, walked past Lucas Park all the way back to Broadway and didn't get approached once.
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PostAug 16, 2006#130

DeBaliviere wrote:I guess it just depends on where you go. I took a long walk on my lunch break yesterday - walked down Washington from Broadway all the way to 14th, headed over to Locust, walked past Lucas Park all the way back to Broadway and didn't get approached once.


Wouldn't that be "up" Broadway? :P
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PostAug 16, 2006#131

eh?
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PostAug 16, 2006#132

I heard that there's a group in New York that teaches hard sell, agressive panhandling techniques. Can you imagine if the community college offered a course like this?



Anyway, I really don't like the ones that try to engage you and tell you some sob story. I like to be hit up in with a direct, short question so that I can say no and get it over with. I met "John" yesterday on Washington Ave. and had to interrupt his story to tell him I didn't have any money.



Anyone ever get one of the guys with an elaborate tale about getting a job out in the county but not being able to get there? The props include a lunchbox and the costume must have work boots. The first time I say this play, it nearly had me convinced to pay the ticket price.



Years ago, there was this sweet little old lady that worked the corners around Kiener Plaza. We use to have a guy in Soulard that would winter in Florida every year.
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PostAug 16, 2006#133

And what sort of panhandling was it? Just the dude sitting there with a cup and makes eye contact with you? Or the person that crosses the street in the middle of the block, blocks your path and asks for money? The first type is an passive panhandler while the other one is aggresive.


I've had some very aggressive panhandelers follow me a few blocks in the loop and around it. During the work hours this doesn't happen quite as often, but occasionally. I've had people shout curses, utter racial slurs at me and threaten me. Like I said, it's more likely to occur on a less crowded street. I think a better solution for St. Louis isn't so much moving shelters around as it is making the street busier to begin with.






Seeing now that they actually are a mark of a successful city, let's start importing homeless.


That is a pretty shameless twist of my logic. Did you really think that's what I was saying? The more homeless, the more the success? No. I'm just saying that all cities, even the extremely well off, have homelessness and panhandeling in their busiest and most thriving centers. I'm saying nothing about ignoring it or encouraging it. It is best to keep homelessness and panhandeling as minimal as possible for the sake of the city and the homeless themselves. But to think it can just go away, especially in an urban downtown, is pretty ludacris and such an attitude, to me, reveals that many of you aren't used to it at all.
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PostAug 16, 2006#134

Matt wrote:Years ago, there was this sweet little old lady that worked the corners around Kiener Plaza.


I think I know exactly to whom you are referring. Very short elderly white lady, right? If it is the same lady, I think I personally witnessed her receipt of about $400 to $500 over the year or so I was working in downtown back then, and several times saw tourists hand her a ten or a twenty. I was told by a lady that lived in either the Mansion House or Gentry's Landing apartments, that that "homeless" lady had a rather nice apartment in her building. Could be rumour, but it wouldn't surprise me. She was so quiet and sad and harmless looking that you couldn't help but feel sorry for her, and she used it to full advantage.


stlmike wrote:I think a better solution for St. Louis isn't so much moving shelters around as it is making the street busier to begin with.


Yep, exactly. Although, I do agree that certain situations such as that around the New Life Center are unacceptable. That is where the police and the city come in. Even if the best they can do is to keep people moving around, it only takes a couple of officers to enforce loitering ordinances in and around downtown. You don't see homeless people sleeping on the Arch grounds very often, do you? All it takes is a bit of effort to keep them from congregating in one place.



On a related note: Do they still have regular police bike patrols downtown? I have seen them at high-profile events like the loft tour, but I don't think I have ever seen them otherwise.
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PostAug 16, 2006#135

Yep, that's her. Also very nicely dressed. I think she was simply mentally compelled to panhandle.
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PostAug 16, 2006#136

Withholding my personal feelings toward the homeless problem in St. Louis, I have noticed panhandling, especially aggressive panhandling, has increased downtown dramatically during the past year.



Walking during lunch is hit-or-miss. I haven't really notice a trend during that time; however my main observations come from waiting at the same bus stop at the same time of day for the last eight years. I used to get asked for change less than once a day on average; about once every two days in the 10 minute time period. In the past year, it is easily up to three times per day, almost without fail. I'm polite, but never offer money, and never have. Recently, they have been much more aggressive. Today, there were four; two of them pursed money after a firm "No"; one of those yelled a few obscenities and kicked a liquor bottle at me.



This isn't to say that the ranks of homeless is growing necessarily, just that something: patrols, crackdowns on so-called 'quality-of-life' crimes, or shifting populations, have made the downtown area less welcoming.
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PostAug 16, 2006#137

What are people's ideas for preventing the type of overly aggressive panhandling bprop was talking about?



In chicago, they made a new law against it. If someone continues to boher you after saying "no" they can be fined or arrested. This law got a lot of criticism because a night in jail is not an effective deterrant and because homeless people with a fine will only panhandle more to pay it off!



One idea is to start a public campaign to encourage people to NEVER give panhandlers money. There are a ton of homelessness services in the city; the public should be encouraged to direct panhandlers there.



bprop's comment about "quality of life" crimes and services brings up another good point.



I've seen panhandlers loiter in the lobbies of restaurants hitting people up for money. Don't the owners care that their customers are being hounded? (usually this happens in chain restaurants where the people who work there really don't care, but that's another topic). The city police should have a better working relationship with local businesses, and there should be an official protocol for dealing with it.



Don't get me wrong, I'm very concerned about the well being of the poor, but aggressive panhandling and giving those panhandlers money is NOT a good solution to poverty.
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PostAug 17, 2006#138

^^Other than not giving them money, the only thing an individual can do is complain, complain, complain. Write letters/emails to Silly Hall, with date, time, and location of the event. I don't know what constitutes a panhandling crime, but having a bottle kicked at you is definitely assault and should be reported to the Police Department with a description of the individual.



Maybe, just maybe, if Mayor Slay gets a flood of emails/letters, and the police get enough reports, they can at least track and identify specific problem areas and some action will be taken. It ain't much, but it is something...



Email Mayor Slay



AND, call the Citizens' Service Bureau at (314) 622-4800



OR, call the SLMPD Central Patrol Division at (314) 444-2500
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PostAug 17, 2006#139

I'm sure people are going to call me crazy, but this whole issue of panhandling would not be an issue if the sidewalks were private. If the store and building owners owned the tiny bit of land on the perimeter of their property, they would have a lot more incentive to keep it clean and in good condition.



We would no longer hear about panhandling and bums on sidewalks than we hear about being panhandled in our homes or on our lawns. This is because they would be private property and trespassers could be asked to leave. Businesses would no longer have to plead to people to stop giving them money to prevent them from hanging around the store, they could simply kick the misbehavers off their property.



And this wouldn't be necessarily a property by property basis. Businesses could form street/business organizations to pay for the paving and upkeep, etc on a collective basis. For example, streets like Washington Avenue and areas like Old Post Office Square would prefer to keep to a certain theme (wouldn't want the type of pavement and street lights to change at every property). It is in the best interest of the businesses to keep these things in good shape because it attracts customers. The city bureaucrats could care less (14th Street Mall!) about how this affects the businesses and area. Parking meters would also be controlled by the association to make sure that traffic keeps moving/rotating to bring more customers, but can lower it so it is not oppressive (I can't believe the city still has meters on MLK, Old North St. Louis, etc). Upscale area associations would only allow metal chairs for outdoor dining (CWE?) while others would allow white plastic (Morgan Ford, South Grand, etc?). The possibilities are endless, but the main point is that the people who have the most to gain or to lose are in charge of their surrounding environment, not the unaffected bureaucrats in city hall.



I know it might sound crazy, but it was the way it used to be done. The first electric lights were installed in Chicago, not by the city, but by businesses hoping to attract patrons after dark.



Also, the parks should be handed over to private control where there is incentive to keep the parks attractive. This was done in NYC's Bryant Park. Read all about it here.
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PostAug 17, 2006#140

I wouldn't have a problem with that as long as there was a standard to hold those businesses to when it comes to maintaining the sidewalks.
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PostAug 17, 2006#141

Again, often with the homeless, we're dealing with the mentally disabled. I can only assume that some of these perceptions are from a misunderstanding of the the dysfunction of a mind gone mad. In many of these situations, a mind will continue to understand survival (Panhandling), but it will not understand social dogma, and we can not expect it to. It is our responsibility, as those in a stable mental state, to decide what is best for them, and what is responsible for us. What we do will affect the advancement of society, but only if we are to do something that benefits them, and us. A quick, and lazy answer, will hurt us both.
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PostAug 17, 2006#142

I was talking to my mom about this and I believe she said NPR's gonna have a talk about homelessness in the city of St. Louis tomorrow (thursday) at 11 or 1130 am.
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PostAug 17, 2006#143

I'm pretty libertarian (and would support a Lucas Park Corporation), but I'm not sure privatization is the answer here. While the market is generally more enlightened than bureaucracy, shared resources like the sidewalks belong under shared control.



Aesthetically, I cringe to consider the result of carving up the streetscape along property lines. Pragmatically, I fear it's naive to assume privately-owned sidewalks would be more consistently maintained than our many neglected building facades.



Also, if the businesses were interested in addressing the "problem" of panhandling, they'd be applying pressure on the City to enforce existing law. Through the DTSLP they are paying the police force to provide extra security... but they don't seem to be providing any direction with that funding.



Finally, as many others have pointed out, it's much more humane for us to target root causes and use a different sort of market force here: make the behavior less attractive by enforcing existing law and support alternative choices for the individuals presently choosing to panhandle.
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PostAug 17, 2006#144

Nearly one-third of people who are homeless have mental illnesses. With the appropriate treatment, care and support, they could live successful, productive lives in the community. Unfortunately, most people who are homeless lack access to the services they need.



The key is helping people move off the streets and into homes and apartments. Of course, the easier way is to identify these persons at a time BEFORE they become homeless because every day a person is homeless increases the odds that they will not move out of that situation.



The interesting thing about panhandling is that it is like any other money-making proposition. Regardless of rules, ordinances and social pressure, people migrate to where the money is. No different that your average business executive. As long as panhandlers believe they will make money that mitigates the risk of being prosecuted, it will continue. Basic tenet of American society - money.
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PostAug 17, 2006#145

So why not create a law against people giving money to panhandlers? Just make it a cash fine annoying enough to prevent people from doin it, say $50? This has been the approch uised against prostitution for some time now, prosecuting the accomplaces.
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PostAug 17, 2006#146

Matt wrote:I heard that there's a group in New York that teaches hard sell, agressive panhandling techniques. Can you imagine if the community college offered a course like this?


We should teach agressive rejection techniques.


Matt wrote:Anyway, I really don't like the ones that try to engage you and tell you some sob story. I like to be hit up in with a direct, short question so that I can say no and get it over with. I met "John" yesterday on Washington Ave. and had to interrupt his story to tell him I didn't have any money.


Why did you even stop to listen to him? Keep walking. When they start their speech, I look directly at them, so they know I can hear them. Then I keep walking. I make it clear that I don't care.


Matt wrote:Years ago, there was this sweet little old lady that worked the corners around Kiener Plaza.


She used to be down on Memorial Drive every afternoon during rush hour. Somehow every day she "lost her bus fare".

PostAug 17, 2006#147

stlmike wrote:I've had some very aggressive panhandelers follow me a few blocks in the loop and around it. During the work hours this doesn't happen quite as often, but occasionally. I've had people shout curses, utter racial slurs at me and threaten me.




Flip open the cell phone and call 911. Right there. On the spot. The reason these pieces of trash get away with this behavior is that they know people generally won't fight back, because they want to avoid confrontation.
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PostAug 17, 2006#148

publiceye wrote:Did you just move here?


Nice try. I moved here eight years ago. I guess my opinion doesn’t matter much since I didn’t go to high school here, right?



Anyway, I'm well aware of the many legitimate attempts city leaders have made to address homelessness and panhandling. If you'd paid full attention to what I was saying- I was asking specifically about the city's efforts to keep New Life Evangelistic Center in check- in response to your comment about its careless administration.



Like it or not, kujay is right. Problems, and complaints about them, are commonplace at the NLEC. Yet nothing ever changes.



Tell me, have the words “eminent domain” surfaced in any discussion about the NLEC inside City Hall?



Like most on this forum, I know panhandling is inevitable in urban settings. The best offense is a good defense- simply ignore the panhandler. However, as panhandlers become more aggressive, that simple tactic becomes quite difficult. Left unchecked, and some people that enjoy downtown may think twice about visiting there, or living there. I'm not one of those people, but that's beside the point.


Finally -- and this is an aside -- one or two posters on this thread might be better suited to New Town than downtown. And that's OK.


New Town? Are you kidding? Again, nice try. No thanks.
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PostAug 17, 2006#149

As more businesses, residents, retail/restaurant/bar options move into town, the busier the street will be and "agressive" panhandeling will certainly decrease. At least, having a crowd of people around, people won't feel threatened by it. I think concentrating on the general health of the city, and making sure it grows in density, will keep this problem in check.
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PostAug 17, 2006#150

I'm not sure that's true. Have you ever been to San Francisco? Crowded streets don't stop the aggressive panhandlers there. My rule is no eye contact - just keep moving and don't listen to the stories.
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