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PostFeb 15, 2008#1076

innov8ion wrote:Why so much strife in the houses of Rice? This is no accident. I see this as more of a rather unfortunate karmic warning to him. One can only use the homeless so much before they strike back. I think he should up the security at NLEC because he could potentially be in danger from those he uses to further his own interests. Not only that, but he is putting the homeless in danger due to his false-motives and poor security. For everyone's sake, I hope he sees the truth sooner rather than later.


Exactly. I can think of some government investigations over the years that were nothing more than a waste of time. However, I think it would behoove the state to look into these incidents along with the one in New Bloomfield. To me Rev. Rice is clearly exploiting the homeless, and as you said, there's now some unfortunate and compelling evidence that would suggest he's putting them in danger.



There are several service providers in Greater St. Louis that actually help the homeless by restoring their dignity and providing the tools they need to achieve independence. Mayor Slay's plan to end (or at least reduce) chronic homelessness is paying off, and I'm glad to see him moving forward to address the problem of panhandling. Too much progress has been made (in addressing chronic homelessness, and with downtown in general) to allow NLEC to continue operating in its present state. I realize that taking action against NLEC would be a difficult avenue for the city to pursue, and that is why I think a state investigation of conditions and practices at NLEC facilities in Missouri would at least be a beginning.

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PostFeb 15, 2008#1077

Just exactly what is Rev. Rice exploiting the homeless for, according to you? What's his end goal? A new leisure suit? Vast wealth? I mean seriously, have you seen the guy? This isn't a televangelist or a guy running for office who have money or power, respectively, to gain.



As misguided as you (or I) think his methods may be, he is certainly doing what he feels is God's work for the homeless. Up against the mock outrage that people project toward the "exploitation" of homeless, he is certainly doing more than me, and probably most anyone else on here.

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PostFeb 15, 2008#1078

^ I don't know where to begin with your post, as I'm sure nothing I say will prompt you to rethink your presumptous conclusions about my "mock outrage".



Rev. Rice's record speaks for itself. Have the good intentions brought about good results? Compared to other local homeless service providers, I'm not convinced, but your mileage may vary. I was merely expressing my sincere concerns about conditions at NLEC, and I wasn't looking for an argument or a philosophical discussion. We've had enough of both around here lately. It's probably just best for me to leave it at that, I suppose.

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PostFeb 15, 2008#1079

bprop wrote:Just exactly what is Rev. Rice exploiting the homeless for, according to you? What's his end goal? A new leisure suit? Vast wealth? I mean seriously, have you seen the guy? This isn't a televangelist or a guy running for office who have money or power, respectively, to gain.


Greed does not always relate to money.



Many people are greedy for attention and power. St. Louis is full of gadflys who absolutely crave attention of any sort.



Rev. Rice definitely has some good intentions, but I think he loves having his large flock of "followers", whether he is aware of it or not.

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PostFeb 15, 2008#1080

Roy314 wrote:Many people are greedy for attention and power. St. Louis is full of gadflys who absolutely crave attention of any sort.


People named "Cookie", for example.

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PostFeb 15, 2008#1081

ThreeOneFour wrote:^ I don't know where to begin with your post, as I'm sure nothing I say will prompt you to rethink your presumptous conclusions about my "mock outrage".



Rev. Rice's record speaks for itself. Have the good intentions brought about good results? Compared to other local homeless service providers, I'm not convinced, but your mileage may vary. I was merely expressing my sincere concerns about conditions at NLEC, and I wasn't looking for an argument or a philosophical discussion. We've had enough of both around here lately. It's probably just best for me to leave it at that, I suppose.


Your and my opinion of what constitutes good results differs from Rice. He believes his job is to "feed the hungry, clothe the naked, visit the prisoner..." and so on. He does that. He has no power, he has no material wealth.



Roy314 believes Larry Rice is basking in attention, that that is the reward he wants. Maybe he is, but catering to poor, often dirty, drunk, and dangerous people seems to be an awfully difficult way to go about getting the spotlight shown on oneself.



btw I wasn't necessarily directing the "mock outrage" comment at you. Similar sentiment has been posted here before, though, in amongst angst from having the NLEC so near to people's new, expensive homes. It is possible that outrage over the conditions at the NLEC can be a convenient cover those simply wanting NLEC moved away from them now that they're there.



I work downtown. I hate going by Lucas park and its trash blowing around. I hate getting hit up for money four times on the way to lunch, and seeing people urinate in the Metrolink stairwells. Disagreeing with the way that the homeless situation is treated is one thing. But accusing Rice of being in it for the money, power, or attention seems a bit misplaced.

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PostFeb 15, 2008#1082

bprop wrote:Your and my opinion of what constitutes good results differs from Rice.


Absolutely. Like you said, there's no evidence that suggests Rev. Rice has material wealth, and he has limited power at best. I believe Roy314 has a valid point about Rev. Rice's craving of attention, but like you said, Rice has assumed an extraordinary amount of liability if that's the case.



What irks me, though, is the way that Rev. Rice operates. It's been stated here frequently that he uses those that receive the NLEC's services as pawns. That's a rather strong charge, but it seems like other homeless service providers do a much better job of attracting the public's attention to the unfortunate plight of homeless people in our region without compromising the dignity and the respect of the people they serve.



I'm reminded of Rice's attempt to secure the Abrams Federal Building for a megashelter, his recent plea for an acre of open space, and his seemingly disingenuous attempt to open a renewable energy center in Dutchtown. He says he didn't realize he'd need permits for his proposal at a former commercial space surrounded by residences that was grandfathered into the city's zoning code. I'd like to believe him, but I can't. Whatever one thinks of his work, I don't want to assume anything about Rev. Rice per se, but I find it difficult to believe he's that naive.


bprop wrote:btw I wasn't necessarily directing the "mock outrage" comment at you. Similar sentiment has been posted here before, though, in amongst angst from having the NLEC so near to people's new, expensive homes. It is possible that outrage over the conditions at the NLEC can be a convenient cover those simply wanting NLEC moved away from them now that they're there.


You're probably right, at least about some people. However, I know of people that live and/or work downtown that donate their time and money to other homeless service providers, so I have to believe their outrage about conditions and recent events at NLEC is legitimate. I know what you're saying, though, and you did make a valid point.


I work downtown. I hate going by Lucas park and its trash blowing around. I hate getting hit up for money four times on the way to lunch, and seeing people urinate in the Metrolink stairwells. Disagreeing with the way that the homeless situation is treated is one thing. But accusing Rice of being in it for the money, power, or attention seems a bit misplaced.


I certainly agree with the former sentiment. And you're probably right about the latter. However, Rev. Rice has done little to earn the public's trust, which is no way to run a charitable organization. I checked out the NLEC through the Better Business Bureau. Although the NLEC did provide a breakdown of income and expenses for FY2006, there are still several violations of guidelines for charitable organizations. The NLEC operates as a 501(c)(3) nonprofit organization, yet it has no annual budget and no IRS From 990 available, among other accountability concerns.



As you said, Rev. Rice believes he's getting results even if you and I don't, but it's abundantly clear that he has a long way to go if he wants to restore accountability to the public and government alike. Unfortunately, the incident at New Bloomfield and the recent stabbings at the NLEC suggest that what we know is merely the tip of the iceberg, and that is why I believe an investigation of conditions and operations at NLEC is necessary.

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PostFeb 15, 2008#1083

Roy314 wrote:Rev. Rice definitely has some good intentions, but I think he loves having his large flock of "followers", whether he is aware of it or not.
Yes, but I think he is using them as paving material.

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PostFeb 16, 2008#1084

bprop



If Rice was doing this for God, he would not want to shove this down everyone's throat. He could really sell this building, buy a MUCH cheaper building and provide his services elsewhere. He admittedly wants to be in the spotlight so as to "show the people the misery of homelessness".



Please note that he has repeatedly admitted his intentions are to stay in between the center of DT to "show off the rich how the poor suffer". He has NOT done anything to actually solve the problem. I WILL admit he has provided food and shelter to the homeless over the past years. That, my friend does NOT solve the issue. There are agencies equipped to deal with this, which are shunned by the homeless cause they make them "work" for their food (I do admit I have no basis for that last statement, but from the fact human nature is to take the easy way out).



If he wants to do "God's work for the downtrodden", he should see what Mother Teresa did in Calcutta. She saved hunderds of thousands from a fate of homelessness by sharing her faith and opening dozens of skill schools, where those people got a free education. There are hundreds of testaments of people having success there.

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PostFeb 16, 2008#1085

I think we're just rehashing the same arguments. I know what he does will not solve the homeless problem. But his take on it is that he does the work he reads in the Bible, and as he does, he does bring attention to the homeless problem. Saying stuff (I know you didn't but some do..) like he craves attention or he shines the spotlight on himself or he is greedy for attention is not really true, as it's not about him. That's the issue I'm taking up; that Rice is not some nut who's using homeless as pawns to advance himself or make himself rich or famous. He's been feeding and 'tending to' the dregs of society at least as long as I've been alive which is over three decades. Very few have likely gotten better, but his motivation is not his own enrichment or fame or power, as he's achieved none of these things despite decades of filthy, gut-wrenching work.



I don't know if it's appropriate to hold up Mother Theresa as an example for Rice. She did as much retraining and schooling as he does, proportionally. She mostly ran houses of the dying, where people could die somewhere other than on the street. She did not try to cure people.

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PostFeb 16, 2008#1086

bprop wrote: Saying stuff (I know you didn't but some do..) like he craves attention or he shines the spotlight on himself or he is greedy for attention is not really true, as it's not about him.




I just wanted to confirm for the record that I said the above stuff, and it is true. Not to say that he doesn't genuinely care about the homeless, but a major part of it is about attention and power. He has over 11 TV stations and 9 radio stations, all of them featuring him. bprop, is there a St. Louisian who is on TV more than Larry Rice? Has there ever been?


bprop wrote: That's the issue I'm taking up; that Rice is not some nut who's using homeless as pawns to advance himself or make himself rich or famous. He's been feeding and 'tending to' the dregs of society at least as long as I've been alive which is over three decades.




Actually, he has gotten fame and power. And money too. Again, you don't acquire 11 TV stations and 9 radio stations (one of the biggest media empires in the Midwest) without money.

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PostFeb 16, 2008#1087

STLDTFAN wrote:If he wants to do "God's work for the downtrodden", he should see what Mother Teresa did in Calcutta. She saved hunderds of thousands from a fate of homelessness by sharing her faith and opening dozens of skill schools, where those people got a free education. There are hundreds of testaments of people having success there.


She also kept stolen money given by Charles Keating, helped herself to first class hospital care in Switzerland while he fellow sisters got zilch, etc.



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Missio ... ion_(book)



But that's another thread on another board.

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PostFeb 16, 2008#1088

Roy314 wrote:
bprop wrote: Saying stuff (I know you didn't but some do..) like he craves attention or he shines the spotlight on himself or he is greedy for attention is not really true, as it's not about him.




I just wanted to confirm for the record that I said the above stuff, and it is true. Not to say that he doesn't genuinely care about the homeless, but a major part of it is about attention and power. He has over 11 TV stations and 9 radio stations, all of them featuring him. bprop, is there a St. Louisian who is on TV more than Larry Rice? Has there ever been?


bprop wrote: That's the issue I'm taking up; that Rice is not some nut who's using homeless as pawns to advance himself or make himself rich or famous. He's been feeding and 'tending to' the dregs of society at least as long as I've been alive which is over three decades.




Actually, he has gotten fame and power. And money too. Again, you don't acquire 11 TV stations and 9 radio stations (one of the biggest media empires in the Midwest) without money.


Your facts are correct; however I think we just have differing opinions on what constitutes power and fame. I don't view "leisure suit" Larry Rice as benefiting himself from either, so IMO he has neither in the traditional sense of the words.

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PostFeb 16, 2008#1089

The Central Scrutinizer wrote:
STLDTFAN wrote:If he wants to do "God's work for the downtrodden", he should see what Mother Teresa did in Calcutta. She saved hunderds of thousands from a fate of homelessness by sharing her faith and opening dozens of skill schools, where those people got a free education. There are hundreds of testaments of people having success there.


She also kept stolen money given by Charles Keating, helped herself to first class hospital care in Switzerland while he fellow sisters got zilch, etc.



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Missio ... ion_(book)



But that's another thread on another board.
To give care, moeny from the devil would have been acceptable. She took a vow of poverty and never did have any wordly things. All the donations were used for otehrs. There will always be critics. Most of them about her "only" doing it to convert people. My answer is.... so what?

She helped the poor and the discards of society. Actually had practical means for them to come out of their misery. This is the last I will post regarding this, cause it has nothing to do with STL (apart from maybe taking some lessons from it).

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PostFeb 16, 2008#1090

STLDTFAN wrote:
The Central Scrutinizer wrote:
STLDTFAN wrote:If he wants to do "God's work for the downtrodden", he should see what Mother Teresa did in Calcutta. She saved hunderds of thousands from a fate of homelessness by sharing her faith and opening dozens of skill schools, where those people got a free education. There are hundreds of testaments of people having success there.


She also kept stolen money given by Charles Keating, helped herself to first class hospital care in Switzerland while he fellow sisters got zilch, etc.



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Missio ... ion_(book)



But that's another thread on another board.
To give care, moeny from the devil would have been acceptable. She took a vow of poverty and never did have any wordly things. All the donations were used for otehrs. There will always be critics. Most of them about her "only" doing it to convert people. My answer is.... so what?

She helped the poor and the discards of society. Actually had practical means for them to come out of their misery. This is the last I will post regarding this, cause it has nothing to do with STL (apart from maybe taking some lessons from it).

Hitchens also includes the contents of a letter written to Mother Teresa by the man prosecuting the case against Keating, Deputy District Attorney for Los Angeles Paul Turley. In the letter, Mr. Turley pointed out to Mother Teresa that Keating was on trial for stealing more than $250 million from over 17,000 investors in his business. In addition, Turley expresses his opinion that "[n]o church, no charity, no organization should allow itself to be used as a salve for the conscience of the criminal" and suggests:



"Ask yourself what Jesus would do if he were given the fruits of a crime; what Jesus would do if he were in possession of money that had been stolen; what Jesus would do if he were being exploited by a thief to ease his conscience? I submit that Jesus would promptly and unhesitatingly return the stolen property to its rightful owners. You should do the same. You have been given money by Mr. Keating that he has been convicted of stealing by fraud. Do not permit him the 'indulgence' he desires. Do not keep the money. Return it to those who worked for it and earned it! If you contact me I will put you in direct contact with the rightful owners of the property now in your possession."



After the conclusion of the letter, Hitchens notes: "Mr. Turley has received no reply to his letter. Nor can anyone account for the missing money: saints, it seems, are immune to audit."


You're right, it has nothing to do with STL (apart from maybe taking some lessons from it). And the lesson we should take, is that we certainly don't want people like her around here.

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PostFeb 17, 2008#1091

I was taking my kids to the Monster Jam. Faced an EXTREMLY aggressive panhandler who started walking alongside us, asking for money. After consistent refusal (over a distance of 1/2 block), he finally crossed the street and started the same bull with 2 girls walking (near 14th on Wash., going East). I turned back and saw him follow them to Flannery's, where they ducked in (not sure if that was their destination).

I had to explain to my kids why some people (healthy individuals in their 30's in this case) were asking me for money. I have no problem explaining this to my kids, but I wonder what those poor girls thought. This man walked with them, constantly babbling about wanting money.

This HAS to stop at some point.

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PostFeb 18, 2008#1092

I just like catching the NLEC "worship" on the public access channel and he talks about literally nothing but homelessness. If it's a true worship session, you'd think he'd be trying to get people saved rather than preaching to them about why nobody cares about them.

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PostFeb 19, 2008#1093

I dream that his little hair piece falls down off his head and suffocates him in his sleep. :twisted: :lol:

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PostFeb 20, 2008#1094

I have always been willing to give Rev. Rice the benefit of the doubt, until I saw this news item on ksdk.com today:



New Life Evangelistic Center Helps People Prepare For Digital Television

(KSDK) - The New Life Evangelistic Center is helping the needy and elderly prepare for the digital television age. The center launched a program to help people fill out applications to get the digital television conversion box.



I'm sorry, but given all of the needs, that seems like a misplaced priority. The better to watch NLEC perhaps?

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PostFeb 21, 2008#1095

What do you care? Maybe it is. Maybe people like watching KNLC programming.

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PostFeb 21, 2008#1096

Cityzen wrote:I have always been willing to give Rev. Rice the benefit of the doubt, until I saw this news item on ksdk.com today:



New Life Evangelistic Center Helps People Prepare For Digital Television

(KSDK) - The New Life Evangelistic Center is helping the needy and elderly prepare for the digital television age. The center launched a program to help people fill out applications to get the digital television conversion box.



I'm sorry, but given all of the needs, that seems like a misplaced priority. The better to watch NLEC perhaps?
Dear esteemed readers, the elderly are this man's meal ticket. He doesn't care about helping the elderly, he just wants to make sure they can watch his rambling on television in order that they keep sending in donation checks. For Reverend Rice, charity does indeed begin at home. ;)

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PostFeb 21, 2008#1097

innov8ion wrote:
Cityzen wrote:I have always been willing to give Rev. Rice the benefit of the doubt, until I saw this news item on ksdk.com today:



New Life Evangelistic Center Helps People Prepare For Digital Television

(KSDK) - The New Life Evangelistic Center is helping the needy and elderly prepare for the digital television age. The center launched a program to help people fill out applications to get the digital television conversion box.



I'm sorry, but given all of the needs, that seems like a misplaced priority. The better to watch NLEC perhaps?
Dear esteemed readers, the elderly are this man's meal ticket. He doesn't care about helping the elderly, he just wants to make sure they can watch his rambling on television in order that they keep sending in donation checks. For Reverend Rice, charity does indeed begin at home. ;)


Yea, he's CLEARLY rolling in the dough. Another Joyce Meyers, he is.

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PostFeb 21, 2008#1098

City to crack down on aggressive panhandling.



http://www.stltoday.com/stltoday/news/s ... enDocument

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PostFeb 21, 2008#1099

bprop wrote:Yea, he's CLEARLY rolling in the dough. Another Joyce Meyers, he is.
That's not what I said in the least, bprop. The crux of the matter is that it's important for anyone, let alone a supposed man of the cloth, to both be well-intentioned and perform right action. I won't expound on this because it's been elaborated many a time, but these have clearly been long-standing problems with Mr. Larry Rice. Ask yourself why he's been veritably black-listed in the homeless services arena. What kind of environment does he provide when two homeless men are murdered at his establishments in the same quarter? Shouldn't he be concerned with providing security for the homeless at his establishments? His missteps have gone too far and now the homeless are suffering from his own hands. Enough is enough.



But am I just talking about this situation or also doing something about it? I, for one, am working to strengthen homeless services in the downtown area by volunteering with Centenary CARES. I encourage others who care about the homeless and related issues to make a difference in any way they can.

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PostFeb 21, 2008#1100

"Under the proposal, panhandling would be allowed only during daylight hours. It would be banned at all hours at bus or MetroLink stops, around ATMs or an entrance to a bank, within 30 feet of a public doorway or at any sidewalk cafe, school or crosswalk."



Wow, I didnt even think about that, and I almost think that is all we need. (To see a huge change)



Getting Panhandled at night is not just "UH" or /annoying, it is scary.



Props to the alderpeople... when it passes!

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