People continue to live in urban centers. They aren't selling the past. They aren't selling Washington Ave as a nostalgia package. Washington Avenue is not how old cities used to be. Lofts are a new thing, not nostalgia. No one used to live in warehouses. New Town isn't so much selling life like an old city as it is selling life like an old small town. New town IS selling a nostalgic community.
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I see exactly what you're saying-- that the renovation of historic buildings for mixed-use purposes which include residential, commercial, office, and retail functions-- something that cities across the country are and have been doing-- is "fake."Agent009 wrote:This has nothing to do with location, its about the product....
Does anybody ever read an entire post by someone?
The difference between New Town and Washington Avenue is very clear-- Washington Avenue is undergoing a rebirth bringing life back to an area that used to be lively, using existing infrastructure and design elements as inspiration. New Town is all about fabricating a contrived community from scratch, where before there was nothing. Nothing.
Hmmm...so as I see it, there's nothing fake about Washington Avenue at all. It's just an old commercial district that was neglected and has been rediscovered.
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Agent009 wrote:I
I guess what i was trying to say is that New town is selling a fake nostalgia, and washington avenue is no dif...
The loft area seems to me like a high density, suburb, one that you have to either get in your car, or use public transport to do everyday things, just as if you lived in a subdivision in ofallon.
You made a direct comparison of the two, and called Wash Ave FAKE. Reaped what you sowed on that one.
As for the above quote, again, if that is your impression, you are again wrong. My girlfriend and I will probably not use our car from last sunday to this weekend. Yes, we will use the Metro (OH NO!..Thats sooooun-urban) to get to places like the Loop, CWE, and Even PF Changs at the Boulevard, because I have a serious hankering for some Chicken lettuce wraps.
This proves the reason for the barrage of responses you have recieved. You made statements that sounded like you were sure they were fact, based upon your admittedly outside observations, and as most that live down here would say, false impressions. It is the immediate reaction to dispel the false impressions in order for you to come full circle and adjust your profound statements of "falsity" that pervades the loft district.
An urban environment is made of its surroundings, its infrastructure, and the ability to satisfy the highest percentage of our needs without relying on our cars. Downtown wins on all counts.
The product that lines the streets? Well, I love food, drink, gelato, stuff for my house, a grocer, dry cleaners, coffee, art, flowers, crepes, funky imports, going to the gym and undergarments just as much as the next person...so maybe, as humans, we have similar needs.
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All i did was say that wash ave feels like new town...
It felt like New Town in St Charles, but worse... Totally fake.
People who consider that city living, have obviously not lived in a true urban situation.
If you cant see that the development of wash ave is a urban version of new town, your in denial...
i was trying to say is that New town is selling a fake nostalgia, and washington avenue is no dif...
living on wash ave would be like living at the GAP, just like in new town.
Those selling the urban life are doing the exact same thing, they just get to cram it all in an old building and say that makes it "real".
And since i did say that it wasnt urban living, which i think was a mistake to say, i could of worded that better. Its obviously urban living.steve wrote:But that's the issue, agent. What, exactly, would Wash Ave or any other place have to do to make it "real" or "urban?"
I lived in toronto for a while, on west bloor. I had a butcher, a grocery, a bookstore, 2 banks and a few clothing stores and place to eat on my block. I had 2 bakeries, 2 grocers and a veggie stand within 2 blocks. Not to mention the metro, the movies, and about anything else within 4 blocks. I could walk blocks and blocks in any direction for more of the same.
I could spend months on my block and never have to leave....
And the block did not depend on those coming from outside the area to support it.
IMO that is urban living, and i look forward to, and hope to be a part of moving the city of st louis that way.
I think a lot of people here took what i said the wrong way, and i understand why...
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^ Well heck, that makes sense. I'll be on the back porch with my White Russian if anyone needs me. 
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I smell Michael@......dweebe wrote:Arch City wrote:Agent09 is baiting you guys. Hello?!?!
You're right, I'm starting to smell troll.
Agent009 wrote:And since i did say that it wasnt urban living, which i think was a mistake to say, i could of worded that better. Its obviously urban living.steve wrote:But that's the issue, agent. What, exactly, would Wash Ave or any other place have to do to make it "real" or "urban?"
I lived in toronto for a while, on west bloor. I had a butcher, a grocery, a bookstore, 2 banks and a few clothing stores and place to eat on my block. I had 2 bakeries, 2 grocers and a veggie stand within 2 blocks. Not to mention the metro, the movies, and about anything else within 4 blocks. I could walk blocks and blocks in any direction for more of the same.
I could spend months on my block and never have to leave....
And the block did not depend on those coming from outside the area to support it.
IMO that is urban living, and i look forward to, and hope to be a part of moving the city of st louis that way.
I think a lot of people here took what i said thewrong way, and i understand why...
Totally concur. I now see what you're saying. Give it time--it'll get there.
Yeah, except in most cities it's pretty difficult to live on the same block as where you work. Taking public transportation (or walking) a mile to work does not break up your definition on my view. It makes sense to have some areas focused squarely as major business districts and others as residential/commercial blocks as well as having some mixed areas.
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Agent009-- the lifestyle you speak of is possible in places like the CWE. I have all of that at my doorstep as well. 
But of course there are only a handful of cities that can offer that en masse. Toronto is one of them.
And I definitely agree that Wash Ave needs more daily life amenities, as I mentioned before. I want a 24-hour pharmacy down there, along with a neighborhood market, book stores, etc. Restaurants are great, but downtown needs basic essentials for living too. If I want to bang some chick after being out partying, I want to be able to get some condoms at 4 in the morning without having to drive. If I need some Pepto Bismol and some toilet paper after eating at White Knight, I don't want to have to schlep to Lindell to get it.
But that's what I'm saying-- all that stuff is coming, because if you look at what was available in the Wash Ave corridor 3, 4 and 5 years ago, it has come a LONG way. There is more to it than just restaurants now. The gaps are starting to be filled, and it is very exciting.
But of course there are only a handful of cities that can offer that en masse. Toronto is one of them.And I definitely agree that Wash Ave needs more daily life amenities, as I mentioned before. I want a 24-hour pharmacy down there, along with a neighborhood market, book stores, etc. Restaurants are great, but downtown needs basic essentials for living too. If I want to bang some chick after being out partying, I want to be able to get some condoms at 4 in the morning without having to drive. If I need some Pepto Bismol and some toilet paper after eating at White Knight, I don't want to have to schlep to Lindell to get it.
But that's what I'm saying-- all that stuff is coming, because if you look at what was available in the Wash Ave corridor 3, 4 and 5 years ago, it has come a LONG way. There is more to it than just restaurants now. The gaps are starting to be filled, and it is very exciting.
JivecitySTL wrote:And I definitely agree that Wash Ave needs more daily life amenities, as I mentioned before. I want a 24-hour pharmacy down there, along with a neighborhood market, book stores, etc. Restaurants are great, but downtown needs basic essentials for living too. If I want to bang some chick after being out partying, I want to be able to get some condoms at 4 in the morning without having to drive. If I need some Pepto Bismol and some toilet paper after eating at White Knight, I don't want to have to schlep to Lindell to get it.
Thanks for giving us details concerning 2 out of 3 major bodily functions.
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If I want to bang some chick after being out partying, I want to be able to get some condoms at 4 in the morning without having to drive.
That's SO urban!
Why can't be get condom vending machines - so euro urban.
---- Well heck, that makes sense. I'll be on the back porch with my White Russian if anyone needs me.
Ever had a Mexicano Blanco?....Mmmm Horchata.
---- Thanks for giving us details concerning 2 out of 3 major bodily functions.
I think the need for pepto could make it 3 out of 4...
--- Washington Avenue sometimes it does feel a bit like a movie set.
I think that might be a better way to say what i was getting at, at least it doesnt bring up so many other ideas, or stir up so much emotion that way.
I would add that i dont think its quite fair to compare st louis to toronto...
I hope it will be someday.
Ever had a Mexicano Blanco?....Mmmm Horchata.
---- Thanks for giving us details concerning 2 out of 3 major bodily functions.
I think the need for pepto could make it 3 out of 4...
--- Washington Avenue sometimes it does feel a bit like a movie set.
I think that might be a better way to say what i was getting at, at least it doesnt bring up so many other ideas, or stir up so much emotion that way.
I would add that i dont think its quite fair to compare st louis to toronto...
I hope it will be someday.
[quote="Agent009---- Thanks for giving us details concerning 2 out of 3 major bodily functions.
I think the need for pepto could make it 3 out of 4...
[/quote]
I was talking outbound.
Though sneezing and puking should be 4 and 5. My bad.
I think the need for pepto could make it 3 out of 4...
[/quote]
I was talking outbound.
Though sneezing and puking should be 4 and 5. My bad.
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I think there is a legit point to be made about Washington Avenue becoming a bit of a pastiche of big city warehouse area turned "vibrant" residential and restaurant district. And the Dubliner would be a prime example of cookie-cutterish authenticity. It's not my kind of place. But who cares? If somebody wants to spend their money there its his business and not mine. Any early loft buyer who doesn't like the gentrification has (or maybe "has had" would be better considering the market) the chance to cash out and make a tidy sum.
I think an even more glaring example of a city cousin to New Town (that is to say a place where everything will be tested in focus groups and the central planning of the design will make a Soviet resort on the Caspian seem spontaneous) will be Ballpark Village or -- if it would have gotten off the ground -- the Bottle District. But again, to each his own.
I'd like to think that Agent's point is that, whether you live in a large converted loft development meant to feel like Tribeca or a new home development designed to remind you of Mainstreet USA, it becomes a glass house when you start question the authenticity of someone else's choice.
Now Dutchtown South, that's the real deal yo.
I think an even more glaring example of a city cousin to New Town (that is to say a place where everything will be tested in focus groups and the central planning of the design will make a Soviet resort on the Caspian seem spontaneous) will be Ballpark Village or -- if it would have gotten off the ground -- the Bottle District. But again, to each his own.
I'd like to think that Agent's point is that, whether you live in a large converted loft development meant to feel like Tribeca or a new home development designed to remind you of Mainstreet USA, it becomes a glass house when you start question the authenticity of someone else's choice.
Now Dutchtown South, that's the real deal yo.
Doesn't it seem like this guy is in need of a lot of attention??? He's not so interested in forming a coherent argument as he is just provoking people.
Washington Ave is an urban neighborhood on the upswing. It's inauthentic, eh? Well what's authentic? Gotta hate those damn, fake sports bars. Or the "fake" unique boutiques. The only real Irish bars are in Irishland! Uhh, get real dude....
Maybe Agent409 is just more comfortable living and hanging out in the county. Everyone has their preferences ya know.
Washington Ave is an urban neighborhood on the upswing. It's inauthentic, eh? Well what's authentic? Gotta hate those damn, fake sports bars. Or the "fake" unique boutiques. The only real Irish bars are in Irishland! Uhh, get real dude....
Maybe Agent409 is just more comfortable living and hanging out in the county. Everyone has their preferences ya know.
I think it comes down to the architecture and the "urban fabric" of the city that makes it "real". Agent probably doesn't appreciate this because he's probably , quite honestly, uneducated. He probably never studied architecture and doesn't understand how to appreciate it. Looking down Washington Avenue is a truly unique experience. I guess, one could answer what is unique, but I find it comical that this guy equates suburbia housing stock with 19th century warehouse buildings that were converted to residences. Either Agent is a child or he's an unducated dolt that was brought up in a vinyl siding house and sadly really doesn't know the difference between that and quality architecture. He tries to characterize it as "fake" but sadly doesn't understand the concept of adaptive-reuse. sorry if i'm being too rough.
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Probably some fat kid from St Chuck who likes to talk about drinking alcohol and "banging chicks" because, luckily for him, this is an internet forum where nobody knows who anyone is unless theyve met them in person.
Hey kid, go pick up some prostitutes in Grand Theft Auto and imagine its real life. Maybe you could blow up some police helicopters too.
Hey kid, go pick up some prostitutes in Grand Theft Auto and imagine its real life. Maybe you could blow up some police helicopters too.
--- i need a lot of attention?
all i said what that the wash avenue felt fake to me and look at the barage i got myself into...
--- Agent probably doesn't appreciate this because he's probably , quite honestly, uneducated. He probably never studied architecture and doesn't understand how to appreciate it.
What??? Ive lived in more cites, states, and countries then likely the majority of this forums users, and i did my time at college. Ive lived in urban areas, suburban areas, even empty areas in 3rd world countries.
Really, thats a nice attack dude, i havent gone after anybody, and i have even given wash avenue praise for what has been done over the years. If you cant see that what is going on down on wash avenue is just another form of mass produced housing, well i think your the one who need to take a long hard look past all the amazing old architecture. I can even go out to denver and take a picture of LoDo if you would like to compare the 2.
All i have said is its more of a product then a neighborhood, which is exactly what new town is, im sorry most of you take that so personally.
all i said what that the wash avenue felt fake to me and look at the barage i got myself into...
--- Agent probably doesn't appreciate this because he's probably , quite honestly, uneducated. He probably never studied architecture and doesn't understand how to appreciate it.
What??? Ive lived in more cites, states, and countries then likely the majority of this forums users, and i did my time at college. Ive lived in urban areas, suburban areas, even empty areas in 3rd world countries.
Really, thats a nice attack dude, i havent gone after anybody, and i have even given wash avenue praise for what has been done over the years. If you cant see that what is going on down on wash avenue is just another form of mass produced housing, well i think your the one who need to take a long hard look past all the amazing old architecture. I can even go out to denver and take a picture of LoDo if you would like to compare the 2.
All i have said is its more of a product then a neighborhood, which is exactly what new town is, im sorry most of you take that so personally.
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Agent009 wrote:What??? Ive lived in more cites, states, and countries then likely the majority of this forums users, and i did my time at college.
...yet you can't use proper grammar...
Agent009 wrote:If you cant see that what is going on down on wash avenue is just another form of mass produced housing, well i think your the one who need to take a long hard look past all the amazing old architecture.
Another example. Sorry. I couldn't help myself
your going to attack grammer...
this is an internet forum, not english 101.
Whateve dude. Everyone knows what it really means when you go after spellilng and grammer...
this is an internet forum, not english 101.
Whateve dude. Everyone knows what it really means when you go after spellilng and grammer...
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Agent009 wrote:All i have said is its more of a product then a neighborhood
My bad... a third