DeBaliviere wrote:I gotta say, I'm not a fan of trolling.
Just ignore 009, he's trolling.
Once again: please stop responding to him. He's just baiting us.
Just ignore 009, he's trolling.
Once again: please stop responding to him. He's just baiting us.
-----What would make it less new townish?
Nothing....... Is that what this is about?
Wash ave it what it is, and if you read what i said, i havent really said anything bad about Wash ave, i just said it feels more like a product then a neighborhood, like new town...
Nothing....... Is that what this is about?
Wash ave it what it is, and if you read what i said, i havent really said anything bad about Wash ave, i just said it feels more like a product then a neighborhood, like new town...
Dweebe takes the easy way out!!!!
And for the record, a troll isnt someone you dont agree with....
Some of you should read all of what i write, not just the bits that give you ammo for your next post...
And for the record, a troll isnt someone you dont agree with....
Some of you should read all of what i write, not just the bits that give you ammo for your next post...
So what is Wash Ave.?
It is a place that has reinvented itself from a red light district, and a few trades shop to a vibrant community with mid to high income people residing in there in a decade.
It has turned a place where no one wnated to go, to a place that people view as trendy (of course people will argue this point).
It is a place in the heart of DT revival, which has more new independent businesses than in any suburb.
It is a place where you can actually (gasp) WALK to do your shopping, bar hopping, lunch, dinner, etc.
What is so wrong and fake about it? I have been to Chicago and NY and the lifestyle there is "different" due to the economies those towns have and the diversity they have embraced. Our city is now moving towards that and will achieve some of the status that was lost over recent time.
NT St. Charles is a suburban theme, trying to emulate the city. Not the other way round.
It is a place that has reinvented itself from a red light district, and a few trades shop to a vibrant community with mid to high income people residing in there in a decade.
It has turned a place where no one wnated to go, to a place that people view as trendy (of course people will argue this point).
It is a place in the heart of DT revival, which has more new independent businesses than in any suburb.
It is a place where you can actually (gasp) WALK to do your shopping, bar hopping, lunch, dinner, etc.
What is so wrong and fake about it? I have been to Chicago and NY and the lifestyle there is "different" due to the economies those towns have and the diversity they have embraced. Our city is now moving towards that and will achieve some of the status that was lost over recent time.
NT St. Charles is a suburban theme, trying to emulate the city. Not the other way round.
- 11K
And yes, i am kinda trolling...
But after all i here about the loft district this and loft district that, blah blah downtown living, in reality...
Its just another plastic development
So what's "real"? I understand your point about selling nostalgia. Lofts that were once shoe factories are hot, but they're not what they once were. So what is urban living? Are buildings that have been converted for resuse not really urban anymore? Is it simply population density? Does it have to be organic? No one can plan urban? I think there's a real conversation to be had here.
Re: NT. There is a very real difference in building materials, attention to detail, scale, etc. Everything I've seen in NT is a replica, a facsimilie of an original. The buildings downtown are original, form generally followed function (with some orginal decorative elements). In NT form doesn't follow function - the only purpose in the design of the buildings is to copy an idealized notion of another time and place.
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Agent009 wrote:-----What would make it less new townish?
Nothing....... Is that what this is about?
Wash ave it what it is, and if you read what i said, i havent really said anything bad about Wash ave, i just said it feels more like a product then a neighborhood, like new town...
I can kind of see what you are saying. But I think it is early in the game.
Grover wrote:the only purpose in the design of the buildings is to copy and idealized notion of another time and place.
Well said!
Coming up next from Agent009:
Why The Grove reminds me of Gravois Bluffs
and
Why South Grand reminds me of Chesterfield Commons.
Why The Grove reminds me of Gravois Bluffs
and
Why South Grand reminds me of Chesterfield Commons.
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Agent009 wrote:I went down to wash ave, the dubliner to be exact, to catch a soccer game a few weeks ago. Ive driven down the street over the years, and used to hang down there when the only club was "The Other World", and it wasnt even on wash ave.
You wanna know what i thought...
It felt like New Town in St Charles, but worse... Totally fake.
The only diff between the 2 was big old buildings and night clubs the depend on people from outside the community to keep them going.
People who consider that city living, have obviously not lived in a true urban situation.
Flame away people...
This makes no sense to me. Talk about apples and oranges.
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bpe235 wrote:Agent009 wrote:I went down to wash ave, the dubliner to be exact, to catch a soccer game a few weeks ago. Ive driven down the street over the years, and used to hang down there when the only club was "The Other World", and it wasnt even on wash ave.
You wanna know what i thought...
It felt like New Town in St Charles, but worse... Totally fake.
The only diff between the 2 was big old buildings and night clubs the depend on people from outside the community to keep them going.
People who consider that city living, have obviously not lived in a true urban situation.
Flame away people...
This makes no sense to me. Talk about apples and oranges.
^Me either. If thats the impression you get from Wash Ave, you've fooled yourself. How is an adaptive reuse of vacant antiquities, piece-mealed into a contiguous area of residential living over the course of 20 years, combined with the organic emergence and transformation of retail and top flight restaurants from an old club strip in any way shape or form comparable to a swath replicate development on a floodplain? Because the latter implies the lifestyle of the other? Its the one thing I think NT has to stand on. It is its differentiation, but it does so to other developments like winghaven and Richland, not DT, Clayton, Lafayetter Square, South Grand, etc.
The problem is that you look at the beginning and the current of both. What you have overlooked is the process by which they came to fruition.
dweebes --- Whos the troll now?....
Are you going to add anything to the conversation?
I think the revival is a good, great, an awesome thing for the area, i remember what it was like in the early 90s. I have never said i was against it.
But if making a neighborhood out of nothing is the framework for success, they built new town from a field.
It is true that new town is selling a copy of "an idealized notion of another time and place".
Please....
Those selling the urban life are doing the exact same thing, they just get to cram it all in an old building and say that makes it "real".
Are you going to add anything to the conversation?
I think the revival is a good, great, an awesome thing for the area, i remember what it was like in the early 90s. I have never said i was against it.
But if making a neighborhood out of nothing is the framework for success, they built new town from a field.
It is true that new town is selling a copy of "an idealized notion of another time and place".
Please....
Those selling the urban life are doing the exact same thing, they just get to cram it all in an old building and say that makes it "real".
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You paint with a broad brush, you'll get pictures that look very similar.
If this is the case than all nieghborhoods everywhere are the same. They all at some point, somewhere, with some idea of settlement began and now all offer the same thing.
If this is the case than all nieghborhoods everywhere are the same. They all at some point, somewhere, with some idea of settlement began and now all offer the same thing.
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Agent... One is in the middle of nowhere in a cornfield, the other is the heart of DT st. Louis... Were you born yesterday? One is true urban, the other is a poser...
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Indeed...
An true urban environment is found immediately outside old buildings...not outside the edges of New Town.
An true urban environment is found immediately outside old buildings...not outside the edges of New Town.
I can sort of see what Agent is saying, though I think he is being deliberately contentious.
With the sea of parking to the north of Washington Avenue sometimes it does feel a bit like a movie set. I don't like it when people go for an urban experience and just walk up and down one street. I have the same problem with the Loop. I wish there was more density surrounding Washington Avenue and people would explore the actual grid. The southern end on into the CBD is going strong, but it just drops off so suddenly and drastically to the north. I understand its early and I am completely and utterly impressed by how much actual progress has been made in so little time.
With the sea of parking to the north of Washington Avenue sometimes it does feel a bit like a movie set. I don't like it when people go for an urban experience and just walk up and down one street. I have the same problem with the Loop. I wish there was more density surrounding Washington Avenue and people would explore the actual grid. The southern end on into the CBD is going strong, but it just drops off so suddenly and drastically to the north. I understand its early and I am completely and utterly impressed by how much actual progress has been made in so little time.
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It is true that new town is selling a copy of "an idealized notion of another time and place".
Please....
Those selling the urban life are doing the exact same thing, they just get to cram it all in an old building and say that makes it "real".
That's just patently false. I don't know if you're educated/well-read on urban issues, land development, cities, etc., but you display a real lack of knowledge. In fact, craming something into an old building IS urban. Building a new community in a flood plain that purposely mimics something else is not. I even think that NT has its purpose and I applaud the effort at New Urbanism, but no one with any knowledge of New Urbanism, the history of cities/towns or housing development, etc. would equate the two.
Grover O-U-T (that's urbanspeak for: I'd rather not continue my participation in the discussion at this time)
Urban:
This has nothing to do with location, its about the product....
Does anybody ever read an entire post by someone?
Does anybody ever read an entire post by someone?
grover - i display a lack of knowledge...
All i did was say that wash ave feels like new town...
That it is a place trying to sell a product of living like one did in the past.
I didnt realize i had to go to colage to do that.
All i did was say that wash ave feels like new town...
That it is a place trying to sell a product of living like one did in the past.
I didnt realize i had to go to colage to do that.
But that's the issue, agent. What, exactly, would Wash Ave or any other place have to do to make it "real" or "urban?"
People continue to live in urban centers. They aren't selling the past. They aren't selling Washington Ave as a nostalgia package. Washington Avenue is not how old cities used to be. Lofts are a new thing, not nostalgia. No one used to live in warehouses. New Town isn't so much selling life like an old city as it is selling life like an old small town. New town IS selling a nostalgic community.
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I see exactly what you're saying-- that the renovation of historic buildings for mixed-use purposes which include residential, commercial, office, and retail functions-- something that cities across the country are and have been doing-- is "fake."Agent009 wrote:This has nothing to do with location, its about the product....
Does anybody ever read an entire post by someone?
The difference between New Town and Washington Avenue is very clear-- Washington Avenue is undergoing a rebirth bringing life back to an area that used to be lively, using existing infrastructure and design elements as inspiration. New Town is all about fabricating a contrived community from scratch, where before there was nothing. Nothing.
Hmmm...so as I see it, there's nothing fake about Washington Avenue at all. It's just an old commercial district that was neglected and has been rediscovered.
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Agent009 wrote:I
I guess what i was trying to say is that New town is selling a fake nostalgia, and washington avenue is no dif...
The loft area seems to me like a high density, suburb, one that you have to either get in your car, or use public transport to do everyday things, just as if you lived in a subdivision in ofallon.
You made a direct comparison of the two, and called Wash Ave FAKE. Reaped what you sowed on that one.
As for the above quote, again, if that is your impression, you are again wrong. My girlfriend and I will probably not use our car from last sunday to this weekend. Yes, we will use the Metro (OH NO!..Thats sooooun-urban) to get to places like the Loop, CWE, and Even PF Changs at the Boulevard, because I have a serious hankering for some Chicken lettuce wraps.
This proves the reason for the barrage of responses you have recieved. You made statements that sounded like you were sure they were fact, based upon your admittedly outside observations, and as most that live down here would say, false impressions. It is the immediate reaction to dispel the false impressions in order for you to come full circle and adjust your profound statements of "falsity" that pervades the loft district.
An urban environment is made of its surroundings, its infrastructure, and the ability to satisfy the highest percentage of our needs without relying on our cars. Downtown wins on all counts.
The product that lines the streets? Well, I love food, drink, gelato, stuff for my house, a grocer, dry cleaners, coffee, art, flowers, crepes, funky imports, going to the gym and undergarments just as much as the next person...so maybe, as humans, we have similar needs.
- 11K
All i did was say that wash ave feels like new town...
It felt like New Town in St Charles, but worse... Totally fake.
People who consider that city living, have obviously not lived in a true urban situation.
If you cant see that the development of wash ave is a urban version of new town, your in denial...
i was trying to say is that New town is selling a fake nostalgia, and washington avenue is no dif...
living on wash ave would be like living at the GAP, just like in new town.
Those selling the urban life are doing the exact same thing, they just get to cram it all in an old building and say that makes it "real".
And since i did say that it wasnt urban living, which i think was a mistake to say, i could of worded that better. Its obviously urban living.steve wrote:But that's the issue, agent. What, exactly, would Wash Ave or any other place have to do to make it "real" or "urban?"
I lived in toronto for a while, on west bloor. I had a butcher, a grocery, a bookstore, 2 banks and a few clothing stores and place to eat on my block. I had 2 bakeries, 2 grocers and a veggie stand within 2 blocks. Not to mention the metro, the movies, and about anything else within 4 blocks. I could walk blocks and blocks in any direction for more of the same.
I could spend months on my block and never have to leave....
And the block did not depend on those coming from outside the area to support it.
IMO that is urban living, and i look forward to, and hope to be a part of moving the city of st louis that way.
I think a lot of people here took what i said the wrong way, and i understand why...