Instead of that Gas Station, a cool triangular building a couple stories tall would fit quite nicely. I think that could really help the area by having three corners with urban buildings. I doubt they'll ever be able to kick out White Castle.
- 1,517
I agree with the reservations about Grand South Grand as well. Just driving through it the other day, I noticed that very few of the businesses have any interesting signage or anything like opportunities for on-sidewalk, outdoor cafes. Grand South Grand, with all of its boring awnings, looks about as tacky as its name sounds. Don't get me wrong--it has plenty of great and eclectic businesses. It's just that it's lacking on innovative exterior design.
The whole stretch between Arsenal and Gravois should be repaved to a rougher and more ornate surface in order to slow traffic and to distinguish the area. In addition, some funky urban lighting should be added to the area. The holiday lights really make the area stand out also and should probably be fleshed out wherever possible.
And being very optimistic...a damn streetcar line needs to run down the center of the street! It should ideally run all the way up to Grand Center, if not farther north. Still, it seems like a streetcar connecting Grand Center to SLU North to SLU Medical Campus to Tower Grove Park to Grand South Grand is a no-brainer. Having an alternative transit option besides car or bus would make these condos even more attractive to potential buyers.
The whole stretch between Arsenal and Gravois should be repaved to a rougher and more ornate surface in order to slow traffic and to distinguish the area. In addition, some funky urban lighting should be added to the area. The holiday lights really make the area stand out also and should probably be fleshed out wherever possible.
And being very optimistic...a damn streetcar line needs to run down the center of the street! It should ideally run all the way up to Grand Center, if not farther north. Still, it seems like a streetcar connecting Grand Center to SLU North to SLU Medical Campus to Tower Grove Park to Grand South Grand is a no-brainer. Having an alternative transit option besides car or bus would make these condos even more attractive to potential buyers.
Don't give up on South Grand (or North Grand for that matter). The investors and developers have taken notice - and for good reason. There is a lot to build on. Rebuilding the corner of Grand & Gravois will go a long way towards stabilizing both streets. I agree that replacing the gas station at Grand & Gravois with a building that fits the lot would be worth its weight in gold. If possible, oust White Castle and do the same. Rebuilding that intersection with building's that fit the lots would put Grand & Gravois back on the map and give confidence that would lead to more investment in all directions. Slowing traffic would also be beneficial.
- 10K
That strip of fast food restaurants at Grand and Gravois totally kills off the street life. I'd love to see what was there before.
We have very few diagonal intersections like the one at Grand and Gravois, and intersections like allow for very cool architecture - you can see numerous examples on Chicago's north side. The building at the southeast corner is very cool, it's just too bad that there aren't buildings that mirror it on the corners on the north side of Gravois.
We have very few diagonal intersections like the one at Grand and Gravois, and intersections like allow for very cool architecture - you can see numerous examples on Chicago's north side. The building at the southeast corner is very cool, it's just too bad that there aren't buildings that mirror it on the corners on the north side of Gravois.
- 1,610
Finally, with the redevelopment of Shoney's and Tim Boyle's buildings north of Magnolia, South Grand looks to be pushing north.
But obviously, previous comments concern the slower push south to Gravois and the Southside National Bank building. Still, even if current trends look like the district is expanding more so north of Arsenal than south of Utah, I think a stronger core from Shaw to Utah will eventually push demand south to Gravois.
Euclid once quickly fell off after McPherson, and Delmar is a huge psychological barrier. But even with even more redevelopment squeazing into the CWE's core, you see developers awakening, albeit slowly to the often hesitant Delmar edge.
I think Gravois is just a hard edge to overcome for the Tower Grove area neighborhoods too (Shaw, Compton Hts, TGE, TGS), but luckily it's not as disinvested as Delmar. But to extend the analogy, you can think of the Southside National Bank building like the Roberts Brothers' building at Euclid and Delmar. For some, it's too "far" outside the CWE for their tastes, but for those willing to overcome those physicological barriers, they're awarded with a more affordable yet still attractive and convenient location.
But obviously, previous comments concern the slower push south to Gravois and the Southside National Bank building. Still, even if current trends look like the district is expanding more so north of Arsenal than south of Utah, I think a stronger core from Shaw to Utah will eventually push demand south to Gravois.
Euclid once quickly fell off after McPherson, and Delmar is a huge psychological barrier. But even with even more redevelopment squeazing into the CWE's core, you see developers awakening, albeit slowly to the often hesitant Delmar edge.
I think Gravois is just a hard edge to overcome for the Tower Grove area neighborhoods too (Shaw, Compton Hts, TGE, TGS), but luckily it's not as disinvested as Delmar. But to extend the analogy, you can think of the Southside National Bank building like the Roberts Brothers' building at Euclid and Delmar. For some, it's too "far" outside the CWE for their tastes, but for those willing to overcome those physicological barriers, they're awarded with a more affordable yet still attractive and convenient location.
My big worry is that those fast food restaurants aren't really that old. It would really take an effort to remove them. And they are always packed, so it's hard to imagine these businesses wanting to give up a huge cash cow. For the Gas Station, it's in a really prime location, because of the flow of traffic on the intersection, it's a very accessible place. With all those things going FOR the businesses, I just have a hard time imagining the community being able to push out those places. I wouldn't even have a problem with them staying if we could build a more urban storefront to include the restaurants. Include a drive thru on the back of the building if completely necessary.
But there is some great oppurtunity for good retail up and down the area. On Gravois, there are several small res/retail combo buildings west of the intersection, and some solid land east. As well as good retail buildings along Grand to the south. Maybe with focused attention on residential, there could be some solid buildup to the South, causing the overflow to essentially kill the fast food places chances of staying. But that Gas station, man what a great corner building that could be.
Also, a trolley line would really help, because currently the speed of cars along Gravois and Grand is really high. I woud propose a similar set up to what the Loop and Wash Ave have done along Grand, and lowering the speed limit and lane access along Gravois. I would love bricked crosswalks, and somenew streetlamps to start.
But there is some great oppurtunity for good retail up and down the area. On Gravois, there are several small res/retail combo buildings west of the intersection, and some solid land east. As well as good retail buildings along Grand to the south. Maybe with focused attention on residential, there could be some solid buildup to the South, causing the overflow to essentially kill the fast food places chances of staying. But that Gas station, man what a great corner building that could be.
Also, a trolley line would really help, because currently the speed of cars along Gravois and Grand is really high. I woud propose a similar set up to what the Loop and Wash Ave have done along Grand, and lowering the speed limit and lane access along Gravois. I would love bricked crosswalks, and somenew streetlamps to start.
- 1,282
I think you guys are over reacting a bit. 
Anyways I looked up the buildings on the Goe St. Louis website
White castle's was built in 1996.
KFC was built in 1976.
Taco Bell was built 1981.
Schnucks was built in 1989.
The gas station was built in 1981 but I remember seeing a picture in one the books I have that showed a gas station at that corner in the 1920s. So there might have not been any storefronts there at one time
What ever is at Gravois and Potomac was built in 1984.
I?m might have a picture somewhere of this intersection back in the 60s.
Anyways I looked up the buildings on the Goe St. Louis website
White castle's was built in 1996.
KFC was built in 1976.
Taco Bell was built 1981.
Schnucks was built in 1989.
The gas station was built in 1981 but I remember seeing a picture in one the books I have that showed a gas station at that corner in the 1920s. So there might have not been any storefronts there at one time
What ever is at Gravois and Potomac was built in 1984.
I?m might have a picture somewhere of this intersection back in the 60s.
I'm sure that White Castle has to be more recent than 1996. I know time flies, but it seems like only a couple of years ago that they re-built it.
Speaking of White Castle, they really know how to mess up a building. All they care about is the drive-through trade. The one at Grand/Gravois is pretty bad (obviously, they don't want any "undesireables" hanging out there), but the one at Watson/Laclede Station Road is even worse. The drive-through lane actually wraps around the front of the building, dominating the view from this major intersection! God forbid that somebody might actually want to WALK to their restaurant!
I fear that the one currently being (re)built on South Kingshighway (mine!)will be another abomination.
Speaking of White Castle, they really know how to mess up a building. All they care about is the drive-through trade. The one at Grand/Gravois is pretty bad (obviously, they don't want any "undesireables" hanging out there), but the one at Watson/Laclede Station Road is even worse. The drive-through lane actually wraps around the front of the building, dominating the view from this major intersection! God forbid that somebody might actually want to WALK to their restaurant!
I fear that the one currently being (re)built on South Kingshighway (mine!)will be another abomination.
- 1,517
Framer wrote:
I fear that the one currently being (re)built on South Kingshighway (mine!)will be another abomination.
I agree with your post except that the SoKingshighway White Castle happens to be mine.
- 264
The eagle deco on that bank:
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Talk about a tough corner to sell. I bet the view is good, but (until this is completed) there isn't much close to walk to.
Living there, I also question the growth prospects of the grand, arsenal-to-utah businesses. I see the pedestrian activity daily, and just don't think the neighborhood can support more business expansion without a transportation investment.. and I agree, some better marketing. If it wants to position itself as "a south side loop", and it should take more cues from that strip.
(Although (off-topic) Grand is more of a connector than Delmar, can you really have the virtuous on-street-parking & street-front-businesses on such a high volume street? Would the 'southside loop' have been more feasiable on Morganford?)
Street cars from SLU to 'the crossroads' would definitely be profitable, IMHO. Have to rip out the new planters right? Removing/retiming the stoplights on the same strip would go a long long way. Adding some bus lanes so the bastards don't stop right in the street would help too. better fix up that metrolink stop too.
None of our ideas are outlandish, mostly I think the strip lacks the leadership & organization present in the Joe Edward's Loop, or the like. That bank is a great building, I look forward to seeing some new development down there.
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Talk about a tough corner to sell. I bet the view is good, but (until this is completed) there isn't much close to walk to.
Living there, I also question the growth prospects of the grand, arsenal-to-utah businesses. I see the pedestrian activity daily, and just don't think the neighborhood can support more business expansion without a transportation investment.. and I agree, some better marketing. If it wants to position itself as "a south side loop", and it should take more cues from that strip.
(Although (off-topic) Grand is more of a connector than Delmar, can you really have the virtuous on-street-parking & street-front-businesses on such a high volume street? Would the 'southside loop' have been more feasiable on Morganford?)
Street cars from SLU to 'the crossroads' would definitely be profitable, IMHO. Have to rip out the new planters right? Removing/retiming the stoplights on the same strip would go a long long way. Adding some bus lanes so the bastards don't stop right in the street would help too. better fix up that metrolink stop too.
None of our ideas are outlandish, mostly I think the strip lacks the leadership & organization present in the Joe Edward's Loop, or the like. That bank is a great building, I look forward to seeing some new development down there.
- 1,517
Thanks for the pictures.
I was so mad when I saw that they were wasting money on building a median in the center of Grand when what we need is a streetcar/dedicated bus ROW. Grand has to be St. Louis's most used and most transit-dependent north-south connector.
I know several SLU kids who patronize Grand South Grand regularly. I'll bet that they and others would be willing to venture farther south if there were a streetcar line that ran all the way to Grand and Gravois (assuming that new commercial development would be sparked by the better transit).
I was so mad when I saw that they were wasting money on building a median in the center of Grand when what we need is a streetcar/dedicated bus ROW. Grand has to be St. Louis's most used and most transit-dependent north-south connector.
I know several SLU kids who patronize Grand South Grand regularly. I'll bet that they and others would be willing to venture farther south if there were a streetcar line that ran all the way to Grand and Gravois (assuming that new commercial development would be sparked by the better transit).
- 1,610
The Grand Visions project (medians, streetscape on South Grand) cost $1.5 million (of which $1.2 million federal, $300k local).
The Loop Trolley will cost $32 million by past estimates (again to upto 80% federal match but likely more than 20% local match), and its mileage is far less than that from Grand Center to Gravois via Grand.
Enhancements are paid for out of the Surface Transportation Program, while fixed transit guideways are paid out of the New Starts Program, but something like the Loop Trolley would be eligible for the new Small Starts Program.
Considering that Grand Visions cost less than 5% what even the Loop Trolley will cost, and that each activity is paid out of separate funding sources, I don't think the Grand Visions project was a waste, or a missed opportunity to build a streetcar. Simply, for the local match alone, you would have to come up with over 20 times as much funding locally for a streetcar (and that's at the smaller length of the Loop's: Kingsland to History Museum).
The Loop Trolley will cost $32 million by past estimates (again to upto 80% federal match but likely more than 20% local match), and its mileage is far less than that from Grand Center to Gravois via Grand.
Enhancements are paid for out of the Surface Transportation Program, while fixed transit guideways are paid out of the New Starts Program, but something like the Loop Trolley would be eligible for the new Small Starts Program.
Considering that Grand Visions cost less than 5% what even the Loop Trolley will cost, and that each activity is paid out of separate funding sources, I don't think the Grand Visions project was a waste, or a missed opportunity to build a streetcar. Simply, for the local match alone, you would have to come up with over 20 times as much funding locally for a streetcar (and that's at the smaller length of the Loop's: Kingsland to History Museum).
- 1,517
I think the median will have been a wasted expense should we need to rid of it for transit.
Plus, I would argue that a streetcar line would be 20 times more beneficial to the area than would a median--thus the price is justified.
Plus, I would argue that a streetcar line would be 20 times more beneficial to the area than would a median--thus the price is justified.
- 1,610
It's only a waste if you assume that a streetcar would be built in the next 20 years. But if you can stimulate development, add walkability and calm traffic in the meantime, the area really shouldn't wait for such stimulus or benefits another 20 years.
- 1,517
True, southslider, and 20 years unfortunately might be a stretch too.
Driving by the building on Tuesday, I noticed two dumpsters on the sidewalk, and workers were bringing out debris. Looks like interior demo has started, but far from full scale construction.
- 2,005
Just an update:
I drove by on my way to work this morning and a large crane was set up and was getting ready to unload drywall. Is there a website for this project?
I drove by on my way to work this morning and a large crane was set up and was getting ready to unload drywall. Is there a website for this project?
- 1,649
brickandmortar wrote:Is there a website for this project?
It looks like there is one in the works...
East view...:drool:
That penthouse floorplan...wow, big.
Looks pretty cool, I still think they need to build up this area a little more. Having gas stations and white castles across the street is far from a desirable place to live.
That penthouse floorplan...wow, big.
Looks pretty cool, I still think they need to build up this area a little more. Having gas stations and white castles across the street is far from a desirable place to live.
- 2,005
Either view will be spectacular. Brickandmortar will be having dreams at night about scraping up some cash to buy one of those units.
- 2
Food for thought:
The #70 Grand bus, without a dedicated ROW carries an average day time load of around 16,000 passengers a day. The MetroLink line, a single light rail line that runs from the Airport to Scott Air Force Base, carries approximately 30,000 passengers in an average winter-time month. One bus line, with 20-25 seats, no dedicated right of way, slow-as-molasses fare collection equipment, and aweful 'comfort factor' carries approximately half of the traffic of an entire 2.8 million people metropolitan area system's light rail line. From what I've been told by an official at Metro, 15,000-20,000 riders a day is borderline the demand necessary for a fixed-rail/dedicated ROW/trolley type system. I'm sure someone can find reference material to back up this claim.
The #70 Grand bus, without a dedicated ROW carries an average day time load of around 16,000 passengers a day. The MetroLink line, a single light rail line that runs from the Airport to Scott Air Force Base, carries approximately 30,000 passengers in an average winter-time month. One bus line, with 20-25 seats, no dedicated right of way, slow-as-molasses fare collection equipment, and aweful 'comfort factor' carries approximately half of the traffic of an entire 2.8 million people metropolitan area system's light rail line. From what I've been told by an official at Metro, 15,000-20,000 riders a day is borderline the demand necessary for a fixed-rail/dedicated ROW/trolley type system. I'm sure someone can find reference material to back up this claim.
There is a nice big banner that just went up on the side of the building. I will try to post a pic.
Finally.
